I love the idea of having space for my boys at the island. They like helping. But they are also crazy climbers and the little one can't sit still. He stands, gets up a thousand times and climbs onto the table during meals. It's exhausting. I can wait until he grows up a bit though!

I also thought of opening that walkway to dining room near pantry side. But it currently lines up with the patio sliders. I'd lose my built in though. I need to examine more closely the traffic flow by changing that opening.

FYI. I'm starting to hate the corner pantry and am willing to give it up. Though I don't think I can make it an opening to dining room because of restricted flow and symmetry of dining room, loss of built in cabinet in dining room and concern with floor work needed (continuous wood floor throughout first floor added after, is not original to house).

I'm open to a built in cabinet pantry with sliding shelves. My pantry, though I love that it is a walk in, is a waste of space and inefficient hard to reach storage currently. So, thank you all for bringing that to my attention.

If what you really want is a much larger kitchen, you could consider something more drastic:

You have the added bonus here of a shorter, more direct route from the garage to the kitchen when you're bringing in groceries. Although the distance from kitchen to dining room is a bit longer.

Oh wow! I'd much prefer the larger family room! And the cheaper price tag of keeping it where it is :) I probably can eliminate the desk area and corner pantry.

What happens if you flip the family room with the dining room? You could possibly use the the current family room as your dining room, eliminating the kitchen table area and expanding the kitchen into what you're now using as a breakfast nook. Unless you do much formal entertaining, (and you might, IKD) do you benefit from a separate dining room and living room? Making your dining room more connected to a newly generous sized kitchen might give you better flow. I personally would prefer two large, really functional rooms to five spaces. YMMV.

Hi thank you. The dining room/formal living room is a double story great room. It's staying as is. Our family room is in the perfect location connected to my kids' playroom. We can't move the family room or any other rooms around. We can't expand into the formal dining room. It's double story with mountain views.

I should note the house layout we will be keeping the same. We can move things around in the kitchen but we are not willing to change house layout except for maybe the entry way to dining room.

Mamagoose thank you. I am not sure if it can be vented in that direction.

Is there space to squeeze in a round table?

What you all are doing for me here, who is the correct professional to hire to do this in person? A kitchen designer?

Visually it looks much more open rather than being squeezed in! We can probably do some sort of banquet seating

I'll be losing quite a bit of storage in upper cabinets though.

I would draw a couple of plans that you like, and start with a KD.
Decide what you can spend, then approach a GC, who will be able to tell
you if you need a structural engineer (if you plan to change the DR
opening, and vent the hood to that side).

Is that a porch outside
the DR window? You might not want the hood vent there, blasting anyone
enjoying the view, and greasing up the porch ceiling.

It's a patio. The vent wouldn't blow directly into the patio seating area but it would be closer than it currently is and that was also a concern of mine.

Have you considered a peninsula? You could add seating and you would not be crossing an island. Peninsulas are handy when clearing the kitchen table. I've drawn the sink facing the family room, but you could do a corner sink. You could put a cabinet pantry where your fridge is and put the fridge further back into the room so that you can increase aisle width.

If you annexed the DR built-in, you might be able to orient the
island the other direction, but the hood would move closer to the patio.
The island could be made much deeper with a row of 12-15" cabinets
back-to-back with the 24" cabs, to make up for some of the storage you'd
lose in the built-in. Then you'd need 15" for seating overhang, so I'm
thinking 54" x 72". The aisle between the prep island and range would be
4' or more, to accommodate two workers, and the side aisles 42", but
we'd need to know the exact width of the kitchen plus built-in.

You could rearrange the bar and desk, to make a pantry facing the kitchen, with bar near the family room.

What about instead of a walk in pantry you do a reach in pantry on the wall that now has the oven and fridge. Move the fridge to next to the dw which will allow you to have a wider island. This now follows Ice, Water, Stone and Fire too. I didn't change any of your room measurements.

We have almost the same U shaped kitchen (with similar dimensions). I'm guessing your house is on a slab foundation since there is no basement? Do you have a traditional rebar slab or a post-tension slab? If you have a post-tension slab there might be a warning stamped on the garage floor. If you have a post-tension slab adding water and a drain to the island may be a showstopper ($10-20K, extensive permitting, need to hire a specialized contractor, possible foundation damage if something goes wrong).

Thank you. I will need to see if this is doable construction wise. The dining room built in is 19" deep. Entire width ok kitchen plus built in is 15.5' but I still have that stub wall that is load bearing that might prevent me from moving it all back

What would my option be to eliminate corner pantry in favor of more cabinetry and moving pantry to desk keeping everything else same.

My current walkways are all 42" if I get a counter depth fridge. I'm not sure why there is so much hububb about the corner pantry. Maybe I just need to make it smaller.

Thank you. I'm not convinced I need a prep sink. It's literally like a 5 step walk from fridge to sink. I'm not washing a ton of stuff multiple times either.

If I had a prep sink my garbage is still on the other wall so I'd still use my regular sink to wash produce/veggies.

Garbage pull-outs can be relocated. ;)

A prep sink makes it much easier for two people to work together, saves steps (if properly placed), and
gives more options for appliance placement, especially the fridge. If
your current plan is working, I think moving the pantry to the desk area
is a good option. A small prep sink on the island would still improve
your current layout, IMO, but if it adds too much to the budget, then
that's another matter.

Corner pantries are worse if they're
between the range and sink, in the prep area, but yours is not, so if
you want to keep it, it's your preference. I have a tendency to try to
find the perfect layout for every function, but I couldn't do that with
my own kitchen, and it works fine for me.

Mama goose thank you. I really appreciate all this! I just don't want the garbage on the island and I literally love it right next to the sink when I'm washing raw meat, veggies, etc. So nothing gets tracked onto the floor. But that's not to say I won't get one or have it considered in the design!

The downside of pantry near desk is 1) losing the desk area 2) walking so far to retrieve items for cooking to dump onto the island.

So my next question is how do I know a kitchen designer is the right fit? Will the initial consult discuss all these things? I don't expect a design plan on the spot but I want to know they will be doing what we are doing here and not just plopping things into a program and produce a rendering.

I am concerned you are not thinking about how the use of your kitchen may evolve. As your children get older, especially if you want them to learn how to cook, you will end with more cooks in the kitchen at once. Or at the very least, you'll end up with multiple people grabbing snacks, cleaning up, etc. at once. So what is working right now for just you in the kitchen won't work then when it's no longer just then.

The three biggest things that comfortably allow for multiple people in the kitchen are:

1) wider walkways (easier to move around and pass each other without feeling as if everybody is in everybody's way)

2) a second sink or a two-person oversized sink (like the Kohler Stages sink with two faucets)

3) multiple, clearly defined work zones that do not overlap (primary prep, secondary prep, snack zone, clean-up zone, etc.)

You might look into past floor plan discussions for people saying specifically that they have tweens, teenagers, etc. to see what those families are stating is really important to them in a kitchen. It'll give you an idea of what common kitchen challenges arise as the children grow up.

Here are some 'tried and true' guidelines and planning guides:

NKBA guidelines

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

They have a lot of useful info, and explain a lot of the science behind a functional kitchen.

I am all ears. Though it may not seem like it! But I need to see how moving the pantry is going to solve anything except eliminating a corner pantry which seems to be despised around here. I can't cut into the dining room easily giving up buffet serving space and impeding flow of traffic around dining table. I can't have a tiny family room and move the kitchen. So I have to work with what I have so to speak and make the best of it.

How much walkway space is needed? We have 42" on all sides if we get a counter depth fridge. My hubby and I are fairly skinny. I can add a prep sink if it fits the budget. But what else am I failing to see/consider besides flipping my entire floorplan around?

Can we do a quick recap please?

Assuming I don't want to steal space from the dining room will a prep sink eliminate the problem ppl are seeing with my island in the path from fridge to sink?

What is the problem with the corner pantry since it doesn't separate the sink and stove area?

Are my 42" walkways all around adequate (according to the NKBA they appear to be).

I read the guidelines linked above and my kitchen fits most if not all

Im extremely confused at the moment.

U shaped kitchens with islands don't get love on here because you end up having to weave around the island (often to get from the fridge to the sink). Many people want island seating which is hard to do in a U configuration (but you haven't said you want island seating). When the existing kitchen is constrained on 3 sides and moving it across the house isn't easy (such as with a slab foundation) there may have to be compromises. Your design may be close to what works best for you within the constraints of your existing house.

The prep sink would be a great improvement, with a small trash pull-out
under the sink, so you don't have to walk around the island to use the
other trash pull-out.

I think the phrase 'dream kitchen' has made everyone want the best possible kitchen for you, so that your investment will be worth it.

I don't always give advice about cabinet color and stain, and wall paint, but I will say that when you decide on the new cabinets, if you make the corner pantry blend in, rather than being that big white well-lit focal point, then I think it won't get as much attention. ;)

Which way should the island drawers open? Toward fridge side or sink side? I will have a microwave drawer in island. I'm ok with no seating at island. I prefer it but not at the expense of other rooms in the house. So my island will have microwave, trash can and prep sink. Will there be space for any storage?

Can we please lay out where exactly in the island each of these is best situated?

Does anyone beside me see a problem with pantry so far away from the dump ground of the island where I prep or cooktop where I will be cooking?

Mamagoose yes, it will blend in better. The cabinets will be cream or white. Perhaps cabinet front panels or frosted glass. I'll decide that later. Paint on walls is Benjamin Moore Stonington Grey.

ok so it isn't exactly my dream kitchen size wise, but it'll have the design and function components I like.

Interesting note: when we were house hunting, we really liked the u shaped kitchens over the l shaped. I prefer to not have a clean up sink or cooktop on an island which most of them did.

I agree about the clean-up sink, and definitely the cooktop, on an island!

If you plan to put a prep sink in the island, I think the drawers
should open toward the working side, which will be across from the
fridge (in your current layout). The aisle between the DW and island is
too narrow to have both the DW door and drawers on the island open at
the same time, for unloading clean dishes. If you store the dishes in
drawers beside the sink and in uppers above, someone else can unload the
clean dishes, while you are prepping and cooking on the other side of
the kitchen, or start clean-up by loading the dirty dishes you've used
for prep. They can set the table without crossing your prep path. If
you put a prep
sink on the island, the
desk area isn't much farther than the corner pantry, (orange lines),
but getting rid of the corner pantry
will allow you to move the cooktop down, so that you can scoop and drop
your prepped items, without walking around the corner of the island
(blue lines). Yes, that's only a couple of steps (multiplied many times
each day, for years), but that was the reason for moving the cooktop in
the plan I
posted. If you gather your ingredients from the pantry to start the
meal, that's one trip, but you'll probably be moving between the prep
sink and cooktop many more times--to heat water for pasta--to drop
chopped
vegetables that need different cooking times--to start a sauce. Maybe
you've learned to set things up differently, since the pantry is so
close to the cooktop.

Each of us brings our own prejudice,
preferences, and methods of cooking to the table. Think about how you
use the kitchen, about how you want to use the kitchen, and how
your family will use it in the future. Take some time to review the
ideas, and decide if you can implement them with the budget you have.

Oops, sorry that's so blurry.

I am going to study this in depth. I go between pantry and stove much more than between fridge and sink. My fridge to sink is one trip. My fridge to stove and pantry to stove is multiple trips.

How much walkway space is needed? We have 42" on all sides if we get a counter depth fridge.

To start, please be aware that "counter-depth" is a misnomer when it comes to fridges. Built-in fridges (the massively expensive ones) are the only ones that are truly 24" deep like your counters. "Counter-depth" fridges wind up sticking out about 30". Your standard-depth fridge probably sticks out about 36".

As for the aisle widths, see here: https://www.nkba.org/Guidelines/Kitchen/WorkAisle.aspx

The MINIMUM recommended aisle width for a one-person kitchen is 42". For a two-person kitchen, the MINIMUM recommended aisle width is 48". NB: aisle widths are measured counter-to-counter, not cabinet-to-cabinet.

What you have right now is a one-person kitchen. As I said, that may be fine now, but I suspect that you will find that inadequate as your kids grow up.

Remember that those aisle widths are the MINIMUM recommendations, not the average preference or the ideal measurement. It's very very very common for people to prefer more width than the minimum in a multi-person kitchen.

As aisle width is a personal choice, we usually suggest people mock up various aisles with boxes or furniture (something with similar, 3D bulk to cabinets, not just tape on the floor, which doesn't give you an accurate sense at all). Then pretend to work in that space with your family also in there with you doing tasks you are all likely to be doing at once now or in the future. Maybe one of you pretends to cook while another pretends to set the table. Maybe one of you pretends to prepare a sandwich while the other person does dishes. You get the idea. Ideally, people should be able to move around and do what they need to without disturbing each other or requiring people to move out of the way. This will help you to solidify your ideal aisle width and also highlight problems with how things are placed in the room. (A common issue that this immediately illuminates is if you have the dishwasher under the prep counter, you'll realize immediately that no one can load or unload the dishwasher without disturbing the cook.

From experience, I know that if I'm to have multiple people in my kitchen without tearing my hair out, my personal ideal aisle width is 72". I am clumsy and distractable, and I don't like having to think about navigating around other people when my brain is already occupied with cooking. I have a u-shaped kitchen with a peninsula for this reason because there is a lot of walking around room in the center that I find necessary to my sanity. Growing up, we had 36"-48" aisle widths in my family's kitchen, and I'd just wait to cook till everybody was out of the house or specifically banish everybody from the kitchen.

I am probably on the farthest end of the spectrum for aisle width preferences, so that gives you a sense of the range people tend to like for a multi-person kitchen -- somewhere between 48" and 72" wide. If you are going to have a wider aisle, it works best if the cooktop, prep counter, and a sink are on the same continuous counter run, so you aren't running back and forth across such a wide aisle when you are cooking. Having minimal need to cross aisles also makes it easier for other people in the kitchen not to be in your way.

Does anyone beside me see a problem with pantry so far away from the dump ground of the island where I prep or cooktop where I will be cooking?

I can see that that it is less ideal than having a pantry immediately next to your counter. However, pantry-counter proximity is pretty low on my list of priorities in a kitchen. I don't visit the pantry very often when I cook -- usually just once to grab everything at the same time. If trading a less-handy pantry landing spot means wider aisles, a kitchen that feels bigger, a pantry that is easier to see into and organize, extra counter space, or any other meaningful benefits, then I'd have zero qualms about trading pantry-counter proximity for the rest.

I actually prefer keeping my most-used pantry items (flour, sugar, spices, etc.), in the uppers or base cabinets above/below my prep counter if I have the option. I use that stuff almost every single time I cook, so I keep it in with my mixing bowls, spatulas, knives, etc. (everything else I use almost every single time I cook too) and have all of that next to my prep counter. In the actual pantry, I tend to keep more rarely-used items in my pantry (extra catfood, immersion blender, our eight thousand bottles of liquor we've been given and will never drink, the giant salad bowl, granola bars and other snacks, extra sparkling water, tea my husband drinks half a dozen times a year, random ingredients I bought for one specific recipe and haven't figured out how to use up yet, etc.). So even when I do grab stuff from the pantry when I'm cooking, I'm just grabbing a couple things. So, for me, pantry-prep counter proximity is not a big deal and not worth sacrificing other positives in a kitchen to have.

I would like utensils and perhaps knifes in my island drawers. Glasses in uppers close to fridge. Dishes are currently in the large drawer under cooktop because no space in uppers. You've all given me so many things to consider and reconsider. I have several issues with the current storage. It's more inefficient than the prep/cooking issues.

Thanks Jillius. I'll study the issue in more depth. We currently have my hubby and me in the kitchen at the same time. Because of where each thing is located, we don't get in each other's way or path at all. That's why I'm struggling with what would happen if we move everything all closer together. My kids are in there running around as well. I imagine as kids get older we would continue to work the same way. One is cleaning up dishes) we clean as we cook), one is cooking, one is prepping and my little one will be sneaking food from the pantry! (Lol!) since he refuses to ever help with anything :)

Because we don't have island seating, we have use of it from all four sides which I absolutely LOVE!

I will pretend I have a prep sink and see if that makes a difference.

we have been in this house for nearly 3 years now which is enough time I believe to see how we best use the space and why we waited so long to get this underway (not to mention the nightmare and lack of time to do anything with a baby)!

My bigger concern is with flow of storage (having to run across the kitchen to fetch a spoon), then to other side for a glass, than flow of the kitchen while cooking.

Just more food for thought, here are the typical ideal storage locations.

Store these things next to or across from the dishwasher (but not in the main cook/prep area):
bowls
plates
glasses
eating utensils

This makes unloading the dishwasher fast and easy, and it means people unloading the dishes, setting the table, or getting a bowl and spoon (or whatever) for a snack don't need to go into the main cooking area and disturb the cook.

This is what it looks like when those dishes are stored next to your dishwasher:

This is what it looks like when that storage is across from your dishwasher:

Note that you do not have to limit yourself to having glasses in an upper cabinet:

Under/above/next to the main prep counter:
mixing bowls
measuring cups
knives
chopping boards
silicone spatulas
garlic press
citrus juicer
peeler
grater
any other prep materials

That's pretty self-explanatory. Keep prep items where you prep, so they are handy.

Under/above/next to the cooktop:
pots
pans
tongs
metal spatulas
oven mitts
cooking oils
wooden spoons
anything else you use while cooking

Again, self-explanatory. Keep cooking items where you cook.

Above the fridge:
baking pans
cookie sheets
cooling racks
chopping boards

This one is less about storing things in the location where you use them and more about making good use of the cabinet above the fridge, which is typically pretty useless otherwise.

Would this work since it would mean you wouldn't have to move walls, windows etc?

What about instead of a walk in pantry you do a reach in pantry on the wall that now has the oven and fridge. Move the fridge to next to the dw which will allow you to have a wider island. This now follows Ice, Water, Stone and Fire too. I didn't change any of your room measurements.

Cpartist I don't think the fridge would work on that exterior wall next to dishwasher and sliding door. But I will keep the option to present to a kitchen designer/contractor. Currently it won't fit. But what about fridge next to the corner where you marked the x. Then the shallow pantry and wider island?

Here's a layout swapping the cooktop and the sink so you can have a peninsula instead of replacing your barrier island. Personally, I'd skip the uppers for a bigger window above the sink and windows flanking the cooktop, but I'm more of a minimalist. You could also swap the ovens and pantry if you preferred (its just recommended that the peninsula would be <48" from the center of the ovens for ample landing space.) I used the Ikea planner, which has limitations, so don't consider this a detailed plan suggestion, but rather a rough idea :-)

I've given this some thought.

1) I don't typically like prep sinks on smaller islands because it breaks up what was a big, uninterrupted counter space. I wouldn't add one to your current island if the island dimensions don't change.

2) Having no idea what your budget is, I'm suggesting some structural changes that I think would fix what you currently don't like about your kitchen and make the kitchen a little more functional for multiple users as your kids get bigger.

What I've drawn is a 24" cantilevered bump out, like this: https://www.houzz.com/photos/a-not-so-big-addition-the-exterior-traditional-exterior-chicago-phvw-vp~189179 Cantilevered micro bump-outs like that are not cheap, but they are supposedly less expensive than an actual addition. Depends on your house.

Two more feet of depth would completely unsquinch the kitchen. Since you're not unhappy with 42" wide walkways now and do actually want a bigger island now, I just widened the aisles slightly to 48" (the NKBA minimum for a two-person kitchen) and gave the remaining foot of extra depth to the island. It's now 42" deep (ish) instead of your existing 30" (ish).

I also shifted the entrance to the dining room over two feet and the sliding door (and kitchen table) down a few feet. You lose the desk, but the whole of the kitchen can now be longer. The island is 1.5' longer (in addition to the extra foot of depth), and the sink wall is a lot longer. Now the sink wall has room for a large sink with two faucets (which will help allow for multiple people working in the kitchen), a base cabinet for dishes to the right of the dishwasher (for easy unloading and storage outside the main work areas and near the kitchen table), and the fridge (so the island is no longer a barrier island, but the fridge is still handy to the kitchen table, and people won't get in your way going to the fridge).

With the 24" of added depth and the 2-3 feet of added length, the kitchen now feels quite proportional to the rest of the home.

The pantry is still quite large, but now it's a pantry closet instead of a corner pantry. You should find the contents easier to view/organize:

But what about fridge next to the corner where you marked the x. Then the shallow pantry and wider island?

I was trying to keep the idea of how you work in a kitchen. You take food out of the fridge, bring it to the sink to wash, then move it to the counter between the sink and cooktop (or on the island) to prep and then bring it to the cooktop to cook. By putting it on the other side of the cooktop, you're crossing zones.

What is the distance between the window and the slider?

I'd love to see you swap the sink and range, with a lovely window over the sink.

Running the cabinets to the ceiling will give you a ton of storage - make sure to get extra shelves for all the uppers, so you can store more things without stacking.

I used to have a desk in my kitchen; I never sat there, because it was just a few steps from the kitchen table. It became a horizontal surface for piling junk. In my new kitchen, I built a pantry wall in the space where the desk was - and included elements of the desk, such as drawers for desk supplies (pens, scissors, tape, stamps, etc); file drawers; and a "command center" cabinet, which has outlets for chargers, shelves for paperwork, and a calendar and whiteboard. I love having those things hidden away, but readily accessible.

Thanks everyone! Jillius I love the closet pantry! Thank you for taking the time for additional options. I have thought long and hard about the layout and different options. Here is where we are after speaking with my hubby:

1) We would like to keep the sink where it is and have a nice focal point with the wall hood. We are doing a similar panel treatment to our fireplace and will carry this design into kitchen. This area will be bumped out a bit.

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We want to keep the sink view. It's the only real view we have of our side yard, rose garden (when they are alive and blooming), pool with the sound of trickling water and a place to see the kids if they are swimming out back. We have plantation shutters and sectional in living room so no unobtructed view like we have in the kitchen. Also, the back wall away from anything else is ideal spot to cook for us.

We don't want gaps in the wall cabinets to add more windows on the back wall next to cooktop. We have 9 ft ceilings and the space isn't as closed in and dark as it appears in the pictures I snapped at night with my phone. We do not want a bulky fridge in the path near our patio door. Need some free space just to maneuver in and out of patio door from pool. Don't want to move the patio door either.

2) expansion: we would love a larger island. Seating is not necessary. If we were to expand, we would rather take out the buffet in dining room. We need to see if there will be structural limitations. The expansion into the side yard will cramp up the pool area too much. We would rather take the 19" from the dining room buffet assuming it won't obstruct flow of dining table.

3) we are willing to give up the desk area and see if we could move things down and open up the entry to dining room by the corner side. This option would leave us having to go around the family room when we come in from pool to shower. Ideally, I'd like to add a shower in the yard so this will only be a short term inconvenience. If we can't move the opening, we would like to see what else to use that space for. I would love some sort of nook seating. Would have to see what creative solutions we can come up with. Ann I would love to see pics of your pantry!

Pantry: we love the closet pantry idea. Where and how to fit it in will depend on overall layout we choose.

4) without moving sink, we are exploring prep sink options. Ideally need a small garbage, soap and place to hang towel for this to work.

5) cabinets and storage is where we need to be careful to have adequate storage so we aren't tripping over each other. Right now our dishes are stored in the large drawer under cooktop because that's the only place they fit (cabinets have middle bar). It's a pain and we need to make sure our cabinet design solves all our storage and flow issues if we are keeping the u shape with island.

6) we find this plan really interesting except for the sink location. I wonder if a corner sink with a small end cabinet can work with this layout. Basically an l shape with a corner sink. I guess a g shape

I think I have addressed everything that has been presented. Thank you all for your time and thoughts on this. We need to do some more research and see what options we have construction wise! And then weigh whether it's worth the cost.

Update: we are in limbo waiting on availability of a local independent kitchen designer. Any more thoughts anyone?

Update: it looks like the kitchen can be expanded into the dining room built in without too many problems. Moving the kitchen sink to the back wall will be a costly move though so the contractor advised against it. We will be keeping the u shape. Windows will be added next to the cooktop on either side to let in some light and view from that side of the yard. To keep costs and structural issues to a minimum, we are not expanding the current window above sink. I don't have a mock up of the plans yet, but we want to eliminate all uppers on the back wall. Should we also eliminate uppers on the sink wall or keep them and add an upper on the other side of sink to tie it all together? The fridge wall will all have uppers to the ceiling as well as the cabinet pantry to be placed where the desk area is now. Thanks