Thank you Robert for such wonderful photos and for sharing your technique in using re-bar. We've grown a Rambler on re-bar for years and kept it to c. 8 feet tall. Luxrosa

Dennis, I appreciate this information. No Abe Darby for this spot! Morden, I appreciate your thoughts. About Royal William, I've been noticing that one for a long time. It sounds so good at HMF! It's hard to figure why it's not more widely available someplace that might sell it ownroot here. I'll save the information on Grande Amore too--it sounds wonderful! Thanks so much! I'm not at all decided that we simply must have some HT's, though my huband particularly likes that bloom form. But this year's orders are completely finished now, and the closest to a HT that we will have is one Belinda's Dream. Its bloom form looks to me very much like a HT, and this should make my husband happy. I did see one place mentioning that Belinda's Dream will take a little shade, so we'll see how it does no-spray in its spot. For me, I nearly faint every time I see a picture of "Mrs. Dudley Cross" blooms and I'm expecting my husband to really like that one too, when it gets around to blooming here. (Have one and ordered some more of that one. Its beautiful plant form and foliage are a big plus. Lights go off in my head every time I visualize how beautiful it is going to look in the landscape!) I'll skip a complete discussion of the roses on order but you'd probably be delighted to see the disporportionate number of OGR's, teas, polyanthas, and hybrid musks. I am heavily disposed toward roses that managed to get along reasonably well before the advent of heavy chemical use. ==Skip the following rose society thoughts if you are not into LONG reading!== The decline of rose societies is a huge and complicated topic and one I'm not qualified to spout off about. I do have a few thoughts, just the same... :) I doubt that the decline is the result of one single facet of modern life, but more of a conglomeration of trends. Some of the influences are probably things you can't do anything about. The trend that perhaps you (generic "you") can do something about would be the widespread belief that roses are so difficult to grow. This is going on my second year with roses so I can't holler adamantly that I know differently from experience. However, it makes intuitive sense to me that roses couldn't necessarily be all that difficult to grow, or we wouldn't still have roses around in the world anywhere. After all, it's only in the last century that we've had all those chemicals that seem so necessary nowadays for so many roses. And lots of early rose hybrids that have been found have survived just fine on their own with zero care. To me, the job for a new rose person is to discover those varieties that have not been so hybridized and selected that they need something so unnatural as dangerous chemicals in order to thrive, as well as discovering those varieties suited to the local microclimate and site conditions. I don't expect all rose choices to succeed here in less than perfect conditions, but I'd be surprised if they all failed too. We're having some success, as long as "success" isn't defined as absolute perfection in every leaf and bloom. The perfection standard is more for competition, and nothing that matters to us. So I think local rose societies need to appeal to prospective new rose people to join their ranks by offering friendly help towards those discoveries of good-grower varieties, help that is difficult to come by through any other means. Local societies need to expand the base of local knowledge of varieties that prosper in a no-spray yard, tell what conditions they are thriving under, and make that knowledge easily accessible. Rose show competitions are enjoyable for many but are probably less important in expanding the base of rose growers in general, because there are relatively only a few who are going to get into flower competitions, big time. But the base numbers needed to find enough people interested in joining rose societies are so much greater than that. Downplaying the emphasis on flower competitions as a very important rose society activity might be good idea, as that is not what is on the mind of someone in the initial stages of deciding whether to plant a rose or not and then whether they ought to join a rose society. Not to mean not to have rose competitions... But I'd suggest rethinking those a bit too, maybe by setting up tables at the local shopping mall, with as many tables as possible with a large sign on them that says, "All these roses have been grown without the use of inorganic chemicals." Nevermind that the rose leaves are going to show a few imperfections; the passers-by who might think of growing roses as a result of seeing the displays aren't looking for or expecting something unnaturally perfect. The big sign would update what they think they know about roses and would draw them in for a closer look. In my view, a primary mission for a local rose society, if it really wants to thrive and expand, would be an educational mission so that more people could get started with roses and feel comfortable about it. The public education would not primarily be based on an assumption of the needs of all those HT's that were hybridized before anyone started to think much beyond the goal of the beauty and cutting of the blooms, but based on the assumption of plants that will likely have overall success in the local landscape without becoming a burden to the new rose grower. If you take any gardener who isn't yet into roses, and simply ask them whether they want to take up a hobby that is going to involve spraying around poisonous chemicals, maybe even to the point of having to take a shower in a hurry afterwards, or suiting up, or anything even mildly in that direction... well, it seems obvious to me that you're not going to be attracting a whole lot of flower lovers to keep the ranks of rose societies filled up. If you mainly wanted to get into pesticides, you'd probably be busy holding down a job in a pesticide company instead of getting your hands in the dirt and enjoying nature. I've more than once seen advice relevant to blackspot as to how important it is to pick up every fallen leaf before the new leaves start to come on in the spring. I suppose this is picking up the leaves one-by-one? And if anyone has more than a young rose or two, I suppose this could amount to thousands of fallen leaves to pick up? Does that kind of necessity for success sound like something to attract new rose growers? To put it mildly, we have no intention of doing all those kinds of things here. Of course, it's not a bad thing to share what rose society members know about handling a problem when and if it does arise to an alarming degree, but the most important thing to begin with--if what you want to do is to promote the numbers of persons interested in growing roses--ought to be to share what you know about choosing varieties that will succeed without those kinds of worries. The friendly help that local rose societies ought to be offering in today's fast-moving world ought also to include local society websites that are extraordinarily well-designed and carrying huge amounts of information, from both the local and the national levels. And always, it would be the most helpful to have forums for the participation of those who join, places where a member could post an interest in getting started with, say, the variety "Prosperity", and later see someone else posting that the variety was blooming right now in their yard and to call about coming over to see it. Rose chats nowadays ought not to be waiting until the next Rose Society meeting to take place. I recently joined a camellia society that is maybe 250 miles from my house. They have a very good website. The local chapter effectively had no website and no easy means to quickly answer my questions regarding variety choices as they so frequently come up; as far as I know, their only activity is to host a camellia show once a year. I know that a strong web capability is easy enough to prescribe, and lots more difficult to accomplish, especially given the degree of computer-saavy of most rose society members, who are often not youngsters, not by any means. But this is just my idea of what to try for, not what anyone has a right to expect. Anyway, I do hope that rose societies do manage to keep going, however they might need to update what they do to encourage many flower lovers to try growing roses. As always, thanks very much for all who contribute to the rose information existing right here on the Garden Web. Best wishes, Mary

Brighid, I know this post is ancient by now and that you've probably ordered already and moved on, but I loves red roses, too, and so have to chime in. (WARNING: I'm on holiday break, so I expect to ramble here) Regarding Papa Meilland, it is certainly variable in its performance, depending on where you are growing it. But the fragrance is on par with the very best rose fragrances you'll encounter. And at its best, the blooms are also terrific. For me on the Gulf Coast, it has been disappointing in the garden, primarily because its blooms don't last at all on the bush and have inconsisten form, and because it is a quite gangly grower, which in the compact garden dimensions I work with is not ideal. But if you've got a space where the bush is not prominently displayed, perhaps behind other roses, its definitely worth trying as a source for cut flowers. As unappealing as mine has been in the garden--we're hot and humid here--the cut flowers last quite respectably long in a vase in my air conditioned office. And the color is wonderful, starting out a deep red and aging to a deeper purple-red, but an intriguing almost blackberry color, not the ugly bluing-magenta mess that some crimson roses suffer from. Despite its reputation for disease, Mine from Heirloom has had no particular problems. Powdery Mildew is hardly a problem here, but blackspot is, if anything, even worse here than in the Pacific Northwest --yes, I know, hard to believe. I spray preventively all my roses, and Papa M. has stayed clean for me. I've never grown Janice K., so can't comment. But Ingrid was just so-so for me. Again, climate probably matters a lot. Mine had intensely red blooms, very lovely, but never had the impeccable exhibition form that others rave about. And no scent at all, but maybe that's my nose's deficiency. My wife tells me that even roses like Olympiad and Vino Rosso are very fragrant to her. Go figure! Anyway, you're growing conditions are quite different, so I'm glad you've ordered it. I really like S&W as a nursery source, btw. I did not notice you mention what other reds you have. I just feel compelled to make a few plugs. I grew up growing roses as a kid in the Puget Sound, WA area --Olympia specifically. This was in the late 70s to mid-80s. Mr. Lincoln was hands-down my best red then. You Must get it if you haven't and if you don't mind a tall 7ft+ bush. Intensely fragrant, big fat, rich red blooms. Wonderful! Another one to grow for sure in your climate is Deep Secret. Its fragrance is on par with Papa M. and Mr. L., a much shorter bush, only about 3ft tall, but very bushy and nicely shaped. Blooms only measure up to 4 inches, but are nevertheless very pretty; one of the deeper reds, nearly black outer petals with intensely red centers. It starts with decent exhibition form then opens out into an old-fashioned quartered look. Anyway, mine suffers through our summers here but in early spring and mid- and late-fall it is spectacular. I know it will like your climate. Heirloom sells it. got mine from Just Joey's, which I think no longer operates? Veteran's Honor is superb, I believe wherever it is grown. Consistently superior form, big blooms on thick stems. A very robust, spreading grower, and even has a very pleasant raspberry fragrance. True red, if not the most intense color. Opening Night thrives in modest tempts, too, and its color rivals Ingrid in intensity. Its the offspring of Ingrid B and Olympiad. Unfortunately its got virtually no fragrance, like Olympiad. But its beautiful and healthy. I haven't (yet) grown Pride of England, which you can find from Heirloom Roses, their "English Legend" section, a beautiful rose that reportedly loves that climate. My most beautiful red has to be Vino Rosso, aka Vino Rossi, which I've only had a year so expect to get even better. It's from Steve at Wisconsin Roses (an online source). He has great prices. You just have to email him to get on the list for this one. Rich, rich, wine red blend of shades, with stunning form, and blooms that last easily 2 weeks. It looks like a beautiful sculpture and holds its pinpoint exhibition form, seemingly forever. I forgive it is lack of scent (this is one my wife considers fragrant), : ) It has been a great bloomer. Steve says it takes its time getting established, then is a powerhouse prolific bloomer. Mine's done great even its first year. Now toward the end of that year I'm starting to see the blooms get bigger on thicker, longer, straight stems, wonderful for cutting. This is a winner. Red Intuition --also from Wisconsin Roses, has just ok form, but terrific prolific bloom performance, healthy, trouble-free. This is really a red-blend, a red-on-red striped rose; it is absolutely unique in coloring, but the overall effect is medium red. Blooms last a long time for me. No scent at all. Alec's Red --a Scottish rose, I think. Should love your climate. Really only starts out true red, then finishes deep deep pink. But the blooms are big, very full, and intensely, sweetly fragrant. Only average disease resistance; needs protection from blackspot. Others I've grown: Dame de coeur --just ok, but healthy and easy. I could not detect any scent, though others do Erotika --deep, rich red, quite variable form, which was frustrating to me, but terrific intense raspberry fragrance Black Magic --gorgeous, scentless, very tall but bushy, not gangly. Needs protection from blackspot for sure. Proud Land --a bland, shapeless mess for me, but that might have been just an aversion to the Gulf Coast. Chrysler Imperial --still have it, a consisten performer for me, very fragrant, parent of Papa M. and Mr. L. Average height, a lighter red than either of those. Its reputation is that it prefers warmer climates, so I don't necessarily recommend it to you. Certainly get Mr. Lincoln before Chrysler. Olympiad --a fine red rose, healthy, good production of blooms, true red that doesn't fade. But scentless, and not the richest of reds. I am not excited by this rose, but it is good and trouble-free. Someone mentioned Europeana above. That floribunda has classic ruffly floribunda form, not the newer pseudo-hybrid tea form of some. Terriful bright red color and very prolific, but mine was one of the worst blackspot magnets I've every grown! Watch out for that. Beloved, aka Cesar Chavez, deep deep, intense red, sparkles in the garden here. Slight fragrance, tall and bushy. I don't know how it will do in the Pacific Northwest. I'm sure I'll think of others after I hit "send" but that's enough rambling for now, especially since you probably finished ordering months ago. ; ) Mike

How many more nurseries will we lose?? In this economy more than likely a few more before it's done. I felt when I was closing Ashdown everyone was doing what they could to support us. But when someone loses their job, is worried about losing it or has their retirement income slashed they simply cannot buy roses. And during this recession that was a lot of people. I got quite a few emails from long time customers saying they would love to place an order but couldn't because someone in the household lost their job etc. I never felt bitter or whatever simply because people werent ordering from us. I knew for many they simply couldnt and that was that. So sadly during the recession when people simply cannot afford luxuries like roses we will lose more nurseries just like we will lost more independent book stores, small restaurants etc. So whats the solution regarding roses? To me Mendocino hinted on it when she talked about cataloging collections via groups likes HRF. These days with the Internet a collection can be a virtual collection as much as be a physical one in one place. A database of what roses are in what gardens is IMO just as valuable a collection as a physical garden. How you can you help? Keep records of where your roses come from and when the database comes into existence make sure you register your collection no matter what size it is. I also think it future we may see hybrids of non-profit rose garden/nurseries emerge. As with any business the more you can diversify your income streams the better. A garden is in a position to do so. End of the day some nurseries will pull through this and some wont. And when the economy recovers some new ones will start up again to replace the ones like mine that had to close. In the meantime if you can purchase roses from the ones that remain do so. If you cannot thats okay too. We are all rose lovers regardless. Roses were here long before any of us put foot on this earth and they will be here long after us. They have an incredible ability to constantly reinvent themselves. Paul