I used "unseen, unknown, and unexpected" as criteria for "reasonable" when I worked as an agent coupled with items that were health and safety issues.

Yes, SaltiDawg, we could try to "require" the sellers to correct, but in my research I always find that sellers, again understandably from their vantage point, are only willing to negotiate SOME of the repair amount. We just don't see it that way; we gave the buyer a full, somewhat "market inflated" price that reflected a rather generous increase over their purchase price just 2 years ago. So our stance is this: Fix ALL of it or we have to say goodbye. And maybe now I've just answered my own question...

P.S. I didn't have an option for creating a screen name--or at least it wasn't evident to me when I registered. How can I do that so my full name doesn't have to appear here? TIA

Don't know what the minor issues are, but if they really are minor, I would take care of those myself, not count them in with the negotiations. Most definitely ask for a price reduction after your contractor has given you an estimate for repairs. A price reduction. I would not be comfortable with the sellers doing the repairs/replacements. They could do it on the cheap and that may lead to problems. If they don't want to meet your price, then it is time to walk away. It doesn't matter what your agent thinks, you are the one that will have to pay for it and live with the consequences long after she is gone with her commission. If this house falls through, another one will come along.

The whole "minor" thing I am coming to find is relative to your viewpoint. Let's just say we have a number of issues, as follows:

* Problem with crawl space; no vapor barrier in some sections; cracks

*LOTS of neglect around ALL the windows...wood rotting and extensive caulking needs

* Raingutters are a mess--a big mess! Some jerry-rigged solutions have resulted in water draining directly on roof and, in another case, draining right into woodwork

* Roofing issue on the flat part; no shingles problem but other issues

* Gaps, gaps everywhere in caulking all around the house

* Several windows that don't open or won't close

* Loose toilets/plumbing leaks in multiple places

* Improper/loose electrical wiring in multiple places

* Mysterious white powder on cement blocks indicate some level of moisture; no one can explain it to me

* Peeling paint

* Loose, if not downright dangerous, wood railings on balcony, porch

* Many more too numerous to mention

Now you may look at all of the above and say "that's minor, take care of it yourself and don't be such a whiner." Fair enough. But again, our offer is at the ceiling of FMV as a starting point. I'm not going to come in and do all these things myself and at my expense. No way. And it leads to another question: How could there be this many neglected issues in just 2 years of ownership? Every time I write about this, my head tells me to "get out."

To change your profile name, click on "Your Houzz" in the upper right corner of the screen and select "edit profile."Are you sure you want this house? The water incursion and leak issues would worry me. Are you in a hot market where you have to take whatever you can get? Or can you walk away and find something in better condition?

Keep in mind that these issues might have existed before the current owners bought the place, and they never fixed them.

Weedyacres you provide good counsel; no, we don't have to rush. Here's the deal: we LOVE the property (1.6 acres); and we WANT to love the house. To your point about the issues that existed before current owners got it, I think that actually makes my case for me. They bought the house at a considerably lower price, which makes sense they could accept the less than stellar condition of the home. But, now, 2 years later if you are turning around and looking to make a $20K profit, you should have at least addressed all these issues. You can't have your cake and eat it, too!

Hm, I'd suggest trying to prioritize the issues that came up, focusing on safety, big ticket items, all of which were not visible upon casual inspection by you.

Now, some of the issues sound like they were visible when you made your offer, like peeling paint and gaps in caulking, rotting windows, so that should have been taken into account when you made your offer.

"Fix ALL of it or we have to say goodbye." How much do you want the house? How much and easy is it to fix these items?

What is the market value of the house compared to the comps in the area? Like elpaso said, what was paid two years ago has no bearing on what the house is worth today. If houses in your area have gone up significantly, then the price of the house will have gone up. If prices have dropped, then the price of the house should be lower.

As for what needs to be fixed? Anything that is significant. What are the issues that you think are significant that were found?

I know when we sold our home in 2010, our roof was on its last leg, so when the buyer asked for a reduction of $15,000 we gave it to them.

My feeling is if the issues are significant and the seller isn't willing to discount for them (don't have the seller fix the issues), then walk away. It means something better will be coming along.

I just posted and then read what you wrote. Personally, I'd jump ship as water incursion issues sound like major problems. Plus the fact windows don't open or close sounds like the house was poorly constructed.

Something better will come along. It always does.

Point in case. We've been looking for close to two years (not seriously though). We felt if something came along, we'd buy. We saw something last year but as we looked further we realized the house came with all sorts of problems and was also just outside our target area. Technically it was a "better" area, but it would have meant we'd need our car to get to downtown and we love to walk.

Last year we saw that in our ideal neighborhood an empty plot now had a trailer on it after nothing for the past 5 years. I asked the RE agent what's going there. The agent said, "Oh they are putting up custom homes". It's the last empty area in our preferred neighborhood and I could build exactly what I want with a quality builder. We jumped and will be starting our home within the next two months.

I'm impressed by the promptness and thoughtfulness of the replies here. Thank you all. I think most are very fair points, though I would counter some of the issues you might claim to be more obvious are a bit more challenging to see without benefit of ladders, etc. Still, points well taken. I think what it's coming down to is a bit of frustration that we are jumping through so many hoops, including upwards of about $1,500 in non-refundable fees to discover this deal likely isn't going to or should happen. But I know I'm far from the first to deal with such a headache; yes, life will go on and we WILL find the RIGHT house. I guess we've just been lucky in the past not having so many problems finding a house that is up to standards...At the end of the day, I suppose $1,500 is a small price to pay to avoid a bad investment.

Do you feel that your offer and the sales price was/is too high, compared to the market value?

Well, I think the current offer is about "right on" with market value. That's good on the one hand; but on the other, I feel like it doesn't give us much wiggle room. And if I now have to come in and instantly absorb all the costs of taking care of deferred maintenance and other troublesome issues, I feel like I'm now "losing" on the deal. Of course, I understand that one must be committed to maintaining a home, but my premise here has been that given the price I've offered, I should have expected a more tidy maintenance upon possession. Make sense?

If the maintenance was deferred then the selling price of the home should reflect it compared to equivalent homes in the neighborhood. If the price didn't reflect that, then it is overpriced. If it does already reflect that, then you need to lower your expectations as to what you can get in your preferred neighborhood.

Thanks again, all. Yes, safety issues are the no-brainer. But even in that case there is abundant room for opinion on what is the appropriate safety "fix." For example, there are 2 hand railings that are very loose and could easily break. Is it good enough simply to hammer in a DIY reinforcement that looks butt ugly but is now "safe?" Or is it "reasonable" to expect that the safety repair would not wholly compromise the appearance of the railings? I'm pretty sure of the sellers' view on that. Here's the thing...and you can probably easily tell from my defeated tone. We had such high hopes for this house. Great, private neighborhood, "away from it all," with good acreage and an interesting home layout. It's just such a bummer to find out at the end of the day it's just a worn out home that despite its outward appearance hasn't been kept in good repair. But again I need to be thankful I'm only investing $1,500 to likely find out this is a bad investment. I'm sure another house will come up; we've just been spoiled by previously smooth home-buying and selling processes.

This sounds familiar, but our Home Inspector failed to report the problems. (Very likely bribed by the seller; we got our fee back.)

After closing, we discovered that parts of the home had settled -- no wonder windows wouldn't open! We'd planned to remodel because we loved the location and the lot. We and our contractor just kept finding problems until we decided we would just tear down the house and build on the same foundation (with some extensions).

Good thing we bought for little more than the land itself was worth. Good thing it was the start of a rising market. Good thing we plan to live there until we don't know where we are at all!

You say you "Want to love this house".

Having built one of our own, and bought two existing houses, we found we could not find a house to love. We had to make changes.

Now, all those things you listed create a really expensive(if hired out) or really long term to-do list (if DIYed). And several point to serious water problems---which can be VERY expensive to fix.

Gut reaction from your info---RUN AWAY!.

Visible rotting wood, wiring problems and plumbing leaks - who knows what is in areas that can't be seen/inspected.

The simple answer is to ask for what you think is fair and see what the seller's response is.

I would not recommend just handing the inspection report over to the seller and request them to fix everything. Everyone likes to feel they are getting treated fairly, so let them "win" on at least the little items.

Don't let the fact that they are making a profit influence your actions. And stay focused on the longer term, bigger picture.

The profit or loss the seller has experienced is not part of the equation. silly

The biggest question is whether or not the house is priced to reflect the overall condition it's currently in, or if it's priced with existing comps reflecting good overall condition.

But some things raised red flags.

*LOTS of neglect around ALL the windows...wood rotting and extensive caulking needs... That could mean replacing the windows.

* Raingutters are a mess--a big mess! Some jerry-rigged solutions have resulted in water draining directly on roof and, in another case, draining right into woodwork... Water inside could lead to mold problems.

* Several windows that don't open or won't close... Why? Are they just painted shut, or has the house settled?

* Loose toilets/plumbing leaks in multiple places... A loose toilet could mean the floor around it is rotted and must be replaced.

* Improper/loose electrical wiring in multiple places... A definite fire hazard unless replaced = expensive.

* Mysterious white powder on cement blocks indicate some level of moisture; no one can explain it to me... Moisture is a home's worst enemy. You need to find the cause.

* Peeling paint... Depending on the age of the paint, does it have lead in it? Again = expensive.

You could be looking at a very expensive project. So before you proceed, get hard estimated to repair these things.

But again, is the house priced to reflect these items?

Thanks again, all...but to nightowl I say my assertion is not "silly." If you are asking for the very top-of-market value on the home and you are exiting it with a significant number of deferred maintenance issues (including many not visible to the naked eye--so don't throw me under that blame bus) that ABSOLUTELY is not silly and has EVERYTHING to do with a fair market price. The price you ask/get should take in at some level the current condition of the home. So, if the home is in less than stellar condition, you should not expect to get the absolute top shelf market value. THAT is silly :)

Ok, beyond that...good counsel from all the others. Today the septic inspection came back with issues. It's almost game, set, and match. Agent is having a come to Jesus conversation with sellers to see if they are anywhere at all aware of or prepared to deal with the depth of their issues. Or perhaps they will blow us off and hope the next prospective buyers don't do their homework. Of course, the sellers are required by law to disclose any issues with the home--so I am sure they will. :)

I don't understand why you are on here asking questions.\

When I am buying something, I decide on the price that the thing is worth to me. If they want more and I don't want to pay it, then I don't buy it.

It's not about what it cost the seller.

Exactly.

You pay what you believe the house is worth. And it makes absolutely zero difference if the seller makes $200 or $200,000. Why are you so concerned with that anyway? Aren't the sellers allowed to make as much profit as they can? If not, why? It's called the free market, and it's a wonderful thing.

You make your offer, and if they don't like it, you simply walk away.

You should use the estimated cost of all of the repairs only as a GUIDE to the new offer you are prepared to make. The new offer should simply be what you feel you would be happy paying to take on the hassle and unknowns. In my case, I bought an old house with a lot of problems (including many others unknown until afterward) because like you I loved the property. Maintenance and repairs and improvements can bankrupt you, so be really sure you love something about it to carry you through. The seller will take it or leave it, as will you.

Under normal circumstances you would get a repair estimate from your contractor for the issues that are a concern, and your Realtor would present that to the listing agent to begin a negotiation for a credit to be applied toward the repairs. A credit is the best way to go so that you can have the items taken care of to your satisfaction.

There is no guarantee the seller will agree to your repair request but often they will try to work with a good buyer who has made a nice offer on the property.

If I were in your shoes, I would pass on the money pit. You may love the property, but I have a feeling that you'll be spending much more than you would ever imagine trying to resolve all the issues. Leaking/moisture issues? There could be black mold and other issues hidden behind the walls. Do you really want to take all that on? You can probably find another property that has been well maintained, for slightly more, that will give you peace of mind. You paid for an inspection, and it sounds like there are plenty of reason to run. So please, let the non-refundable $1500 go, and let someone else take on that headache.

"My concern is this: what should truly guide my decision about walking away or to what level we negotiate with the seller."

I have been in your shoes. What I did was offer the market price minus what I believed the repair costs to be for two houses over three years and both offers were accepted. Both houses were in the only area I wanted to live and both had incredible lots. I really struggled with walking away from the first house after the inspection. I really didn't think another opportunity in the area with such and incredible lot would come up. But it did. The second house had good bones and I am happy with our purchase and I don't mind the cost of updating it because the house doesn't have major issues.

I think we need one question answered.

Is the house priced to reflect the condition and needed repairs, or is it priced according to comps in good shape and need maybe only cosmetic things?

I truly believe no realtor worth his/her salt would list a home needing so much work in the same range as homes in good condition.

Also, what one buyer considers "top dollar", another buyer sees as a bargain.

My "Top Dollar" assertion is based on sold comps in the area--and, yes, homes in good condition. So again back to my premise, you should not expect to get top dollar when your home is not in the same condition as comparatives priced in a similar fashion that ARE in good condition. Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts...I think I'm likely to opt out of the deal unless the seller stuns us by accepting our repair list. Cheers

"you should not EXPECT [my bolding] to get top dollar when your home is not in the
same condition as comparatives priced in a similar fashion that ARE in
good condition."

You are absolutely correct. However, while it may be unfair or in some people's eyes unethical, a seller is entitled to ask for as much as s/he wants. You as a buyer can correct the seller's view by simply offering less or walking away, upt to the point when the contract is ratified.

How you decide depends on a rational decision that takes into account the repairs, the cost, how much you want the house, and ultimately the (new) price you can negotiate.

(Now, some of the defects sound like they were obvious, such as peeling paint, so I wouldn't add those to your list.)

Good luck in your decision.

I kinda know what you're getting at - around here its a hot market and a lot of houses with what's euphemistically called "deferred maintenance" . (I call it letting your place deteriorate and become a dump.)

Sellers of these dumps, often investor slumlord types, often seem to try to get top dollar based on what a renovated, well maintained house is worth and I wanna tell them "uh, no the person WHO DOES THE WORK should get the sweat equity, NOT YOU!!!!"

Still the bottom line as others have said is - what is it worth to you? What would let you get the house and feel like you got if not a great deal, at least one that you're OK with? A good inspector should be able to come up with various options and ball park numbers for how you can address issues - he/she should be able to tell you costs for DIY as well as hiring someone.

I don't think your under any obligation to explain or itemize costs for the seller - just give a lump sum and put it all under the heading of "necessary repairs" The inspection contingency is there just for this reason IMHO - for you to get a closer look and spot things you would not have otherwise seen and you've established there are a significant amount of those. Its not like youre just trying to whittle down the price with some lame excuse. The inspection has revealed more things and now you're repair budget looks much different than it did. What you were willing to accept before the inspection doesn't necessarily apply to what the priorities look like on your repair list now. Just do the math and see what number you come up with, decide if you want to bother with it or not, and then decide what price reduction would make it worth your while. Good luck!

Why would you lose the $1500 deposit if you terminated the contract based on the fact that the seller refused to do the repairs?

Sorry about the confusion, ncrealestateguy. The seller only has $350 in due diligence money...the rest of the lost $1,500+ is money I have already spent on inspections, appraisal, etc.

If it were me the water issues would be of the most concern. Based on the owners prior history, they don't seem like they took very good care of the property. I would get my own contractor in there to tell me if these problems are fixable, worth fixing, and how much to fix. If the sellers aren't willing to come down, I would walk, especially if the home price wouldn't justify the extra money I have to put in. Its hard, I know, once you develop an emotional attachment, but in the long run you are saving yourself heartache (and money!). I can put up with a lot when it comes to differed maintenance, but not when it comes to water problems.

Dan Thank you for your good thoughts--I agree with you! We have our own contractor submitting bids today in fact. We are also getting a bid on septic issues. The sellers shared with our agent that they are "committed to working this out for all of us." But that's just a sentiment...standing by to see how much $$ will go with that statement....

It sounds as though you have at least a chance to make a win / win deal. Good luck.