I don't but have seen this in a few kitchens over on the kitchens forum. it wouldn't work for me because I know I'd have it open, forget it was and turn around and fall over it. that's me...

NKBA recommends 21" between DW and perpendicular counter. Most DW door top edges are 26-27" from the cabinet face when open, so the edge of the sink should be 26-27" from the corner to allow the DW door to open completely. I think if you don't have the space to do follow those guidelines, you can adjust by a few inches. (That might get me in trouble on the Kitchens forum.) ;)

Thanks MamaG. In my current kitchen the sink & range are perpendicular. I opened my oven door and pretended it was a dishwasher and went through the motions of loading it from the sink. It worked even though the measurements between elements were less than the NKBA recommended you supplied. I can see how more inches on the dw side would probably feel more comfortable though.

I very much enjoy the Kitchen Forum, but they can be sticklers for space requirements and placements that- for my own use - could be flexible. ;)

Steph, I have a dishwasher where the door sometimes unexpectedly drops down if it wasn't completed locked. I can easily see backing into an open dishwasher if my mind was preoccupied! A good reason to re-think this potential design, thank you.

Hi llucy! I don't see any reason it wouldn't work, especially if you've tried it in your experiment and thought it was OK. I love the kitchen forum too, and have learned a TON from reading it, but they have one way a kitchen "should" be laid out, and how much space there should be, and that isn't always practical for very small homes, or homes where walls can't be moved or the basic footprint changed. So if it works for you, I say go for it!

Have a happy Monday! :-)

Hi Debbie, good to "see" you. :) I hope you are enjoying your new place. I look forward to you posting your layout ideas (should you choose to), because my "dream cottage" may well be a manufactured home also.

Happy Monday to you too!

Yes, I have this. It's not ideal, but I can live with it. In this photo, you can just see the handle of the DW on the right:

Our home is one of dozens built by the same builder in the mid-70s. Dishwashers were not standard. It seems people who installed DWs chose one of two locations.

One (lesser-used location) is the other side of the peninsula, which faces the dining area (convenient) but otherwise is pretty much outside of the kitchen (not so convenient).

The other location (and the one we have) is perpendicular to the sink counter. The dishwasher door opens right in front of the sink cabinet. Honestly, it's pretty easy to ferry dishes from sink to DW and leaning over to rinse the occasional dish is not difficult.

About the only thing I don't like about the installation is that we had to find a different place to store the DW detergent as otherwise you have to close the DW door to open the sink cabinet door and get the detergent.

Hi llucy! I'll definitely post pics as I go along; I'm probably going to do a blog about/throughout the process. I'm not sure I'll post layout plans, but if I do, it will be on this "smaller homes" forum. I'm just not sure what the point would be in submitting plans to the kitchen forum because honestly, there is very little I can change, due to its size, my budget, and the unique challenges of doing things like moving the plumbing to a different wall in a manufactured home. I've read very, very extensively on that forum and feel like I've soaked a lot in. I feel, in fact, like I've taken a course in kitchen layout and design! There are some extremely talented people over there that could have a career as kitchen designers! But I'm afraid we'd frustrate one another if I posted layout plans. It would be cost prohibitive to change the basic footprint, and I've already had one of the "gurus" suggest I move everything to the opposite wall, lol. I think I'm better off continuing to read it regularly, learn from what others are doing, and asking general questions as opposed to my specific plans.

Scone911, wow! What a lovely kitchen! Love the farmhouse sink, and love love love those counter tops!! And the light coming in the window! :-)

Well, you know, Debbie, if you just say that you can't afford to do X, they will work around it over in Kitchens, however much they may grumble. Most people don't take all their suggestions, just pick and choose the ones that work best for them.

Thanks, Debbie. The countertops are Ikea butcher block, pretty cheap and sturdy. I would use them again, but I wouldn't put them in with a mitered corner, because they shrank about 1/4". I knew better, but I did it anyway.

The farmhouse sink (Domsjo) and faucet are also from Ikea. There is a smaller Domsjo sink available. The cabinets are Innermost from Home Depot.

I know what you mean about the kitchen forum. I think the smaller homes forum "gets it" whereas if I posted my plans in Kitchens, I think I'd be "encouraged" to do all sorts of things I'm not interested in doing. I really like my little kitchen, and don't want a big one. Been there, done that.

Scone: "I know what you mean about the kitchen forum. I think the smaller homes forum "gets it" whereas if I posted my plans in Kitchens, I think I'd be "encouraged" to do all sorts of things I'm not interested in doing. I really like my little kitchen, and don't want a big one. Been there, done that."

^ This exactly. :)

I truly enjoy the KF, but when I see the word "dysfunctional" applied to a layout sometimes my mental eyebrows go up. "Dysfunctional" on that forum can mean - "Not my preference", or "Wouldn't work for my household/lifestyle" when the OP makes a very good case for how it would work for their preference /household/ lifestyle.

I feel comfortable bouncing off ideas for the home I hope to have one day here. I don't need 'tough love'; I'd rather hear about real world experience - pro and con - from people who've lived with space optimizing compromises.

Indeed. There are some absolutely brilliant people on the kitchens forum who very generously donate hours and hours of their time to come up with really creative, beautiful kitchen designs! Having seen what they can do with a kitchen layout, I'd trust them over many a "real" KD any day of the week.

But that's kind of my point. I'd feel terrible if people spent hours of their time coming up with a design I can't use. I know for a fact, because I've read it dozens of times, when people say, "I can't move this wall," or "The plumbing can't be moved," or, "I can't afford to put in a window here," that invariably, the first layouts that come back have taken out the wall, moved the plumbing, and put in a floor to ceiling window. :-) And yes, those layouts are beautiful and often many times nicer than what the OP has designed. But they're not realistic.

Additionally, my home is a manufactured home. And while it is possible to do everything you can do in a site built home, electrical wiring and plumbing are done differently. Moving the plumbing 14 ft to the other wall in my kitchen would be a huge and costly undertaking.

I have a very small eat-in kitchen. And small spaces are just plain different than big spaces. I don't need to worry about where "everyone" will congregate or about all the children crossing through my work zone or about where all four cooks are going to be standing. It's me and my daughter. We've cooked together for years, and we could do it in a coat closet without being in each other's way.

So I don't want to waste other people's time by having them come up with some great ideas I can't use. I know if I post my layout on this forum people will make realistic suggestions that are within my budget and won't freak out that I don't have 18" of landing space on both sides of my range (because that is impossible). :-)

I do agree that many on KF push a bit too much to do things some don't want. OTOH, those 'some' most often have no idea what is available or is functional. Most (more these days than in past) don't read the 'Read me first' thread. the LOs aren't readable and often don't give measurements. You often have to drag it out of them or be able to read minds...

I do believe that when some say they can't do this or that, they should let it be - OTOH to that, many come around within the 1st page. saw that today for 1 poster. She was amazed at the ideas that came out of that crew.

And many on there are real KDs. it's their regular job to do. others have done enough of their own kitchens they might as well be a KD. myself, I don't think I'd survive one kitchen redo - without unlimited $s to hire someone to be me... if I survived one I'd surely know better than do it again?

And I think some of the favorite redos have been just cosmetic and just for a few K. Many don't post those there because they're intimidated and I think that's too bad 'cause many can't afford the 10s of thousands of $s that go into many that are gutted and move walls/windows etc. There are so many people who just can't (or don't want to) do that.

After being on here (and there) for a yr or so I totally decided my kitchen was fine as is. With cheap trailer cabs, white laminate w/ a few good sized dings etc. Some of that was after cleaning out the cabs and finding their guts (except the under sink cab) were in super condition. Jed rebuilt the floor of the undersink cab. I just didn't want the hassle, more mess (I had enough of that going on - and it's still going on). Jed also replaced the floor - that was because with the other flooring butting up to the kitchen it caused a lip that would be dangerous to me (tripping and falling type).

And cooking so little these day, I had better places to spend my $s. I do plan to spend some of those $s having Jed change the large lower cab from doors to drawers. i'll take the drawers even if the fronts don't match...that's function over form - lol!

I wouldn't mind changing the counter top if I knew of something I liked and could see ants when they're on it. I had decided but then I got ants in the kitchen. Those suckers were so very, very tiny it was hard to even see them. The patterned laminate idea just went out the door. If I could barely see them on white, they'd rule the place with a pattern to run around on.

I'll have Jed spray or something out front for them this year - in advance of their invasion!

Try Terro, desertsteph. Once the ants are in your walls, spraying outside won't help much.

Sometimes I like the "before" pictures better than the "afters." There seems to be so much conformity out there-- SS appliances, subway tile, stone counters, hardwood floors, "creamy" cabinets. I stand with Marcolo on this, who characterized it as a "kit of parts." (Forgive me if I repeat myself, I invoke the cranky old fart exemption rule...)

The oddball, quirky, funky kitchens interest me-- it's a triumph of creativity when you're working with a small budget and a difficult space. And then the relative low cost of the project could free one's mind to do something wild and crazy.

Another aspect to this is environmentalism and waste. Sometimes the "before" kitchens are perfectly good, and the thought of just ripping them out and throwing all that stuff away makes me absolutely queasy.

At the same time, construction = jobs, and you do have to replace things that are nasty or worn out. And sometimes that means taking out good stuff to deal with the bad. I like to donate my "still good" stuff to ReStore, but even they won't take some things. No one, and I mean not one single person anywhere, wanted my mauve toilets! So they went into the dumpster. I don't see why you can't sterilize these old beasts, crush them, and use them as filler material for concrete. But apparently not. :/

I have struggled with the environmental aspect of building my new place in Maine. I'm ripping out a lot of trees to do this, and spending a lot of "embodied energy." This land has been logged out, and burned out, several times over the last couple of centuries, so there is no old growth there, or endangered species AFAIK. And half the lot is reserved wild by local regulation, which I agree with completely.

I wouldn't be doing this at all if there were more housing options for people like me, older folks who need a master on the main floor, and want a garden, but don't want a condo. I just don't want to live in a retirement home, like the people in that British tv show, "Waiting for God."

I did search around for co-housing projects in our target area, but didn't find anything. You would think that would be ideal, a larger piece of land with little cottages, like the Ross Chapin projects. I could totally get behind that.

Desertsteph, you are right, as usual! :-). There are professional KDs on the KF, as well as others would could start a successful career tomorrow as a KD if they so chose. As I said, many of the layouts are nothing short of brilliant! You are also right in saying many people who post layouts don't know what they want, don't post readable floor plans, and haven't read the introductory material. I've read it all-- the Read Me First, the one about the Work Zones theory of KD (which not all chefs subscribe to), the one that has a check-off list of pantry items, etc., and Marcolo's ice, water, rock, fire one. I think beuhl (sp?) put a lot of time and thought into those, and they helped me think in an entirely different way about how a kitchen can function! I am so grateful to the KF for all the knowledge I've gained. I feel like I will be able to talk intelligently to a contractor when the time comes and actually know what I'm talking about.

I too wish that more people would post their "updates" and "refreshes!" A fresh coat of paint can totally change the look and feeling of a kitchen! Or just changing cabinet doors, or like Steph, changing cabinets to drawers!

But people do that here on this forum all the time, and not just for kitchens! I love seeing Chris's boho curtains and Stringweaver's towels, or just folks re-arranging the furniture! It's fun and inspiring! :-) I love that we rejoice when Steph has gotten through another box, and that we applaud Jay for the work of art his peninsula is (to say nothing of the rest of his glorious home)! That's why I love this smaller homes forum so much.

Scone911, I truly do feel your environmental pain. If you ever read my reviews on Amazon, you'll know that I AGONIZE over the smallest purchases because of their environmental impact.

I believe we are on a collision course with disaster and that it may not affect me all that much now, but it IS affecting billions in other parts of the world, and it WILL affect my grandchildren. So I'm on a personal mission to reduce my environmental footprint as much as possible.

I'm not at all about judging other people or their lifestyle choices--this is about ME and what I believe I personally need to do in order to "walk my talk." So I use no paper products other than TP, and that might be going soon as well. I try very, very hard to not buy plastic, although it's nearly impossible because almost everything has something plastic in it. I believe "reduce, reuse, recycle" should be added to the Ten Commandments, lol! People on this forum are awesome at re-purposing stuff--I'm especially thinking of Chris, aka Shades of Idaho.

So how does that fit in with refurbishing a house? Believe me when I say it keeps me up at night! I lived in Mexico for two years, and I lived in Zambia for a year. I know the difference between a necessity and a "want."

I'm not advocating for people to live with no comforts of modern life, without things that make our daily lives easier and more enjoyable. Not at all! It is not unreasonable to want a kitchen with electricity, a flush toilet, a comfortable mattress that doesn't kill your back, a home that's warm in winter and cool in summer, modern pharmaceuticals that cure our illness or ease our pain. And chocolate. I must have my stash of emergency chocolate! ;-)

I'm just saying, for me personally, that I deliberate very carefully, some may say obsessively, lol, over the impact of my choices.

As concerns my house, I think by refurbishing, I do a few things: one, this "trailer" (manufactured home) is not going to the scrap heap and being replaced with a brand new one.

Two, although I'd DIY if I were physically able, I'll be employing folks over the next ten years or so, and I'm happy to contribute to our local economy in that way.

Three, I'll donate as much as I can, such as the built-in china hutch I'm knocking out. I think it's perfectly hideous, and it chops an already small space in half, but it's in perfect condition and someone else may really appreciate it! (Love the mauve toilet!)

Fourth, and perhaps a bit unrelated, I now have the opportunity to reduce overall energy consumption by replacing decades old appliances with Energy Star certified ones, by insulating the home properly, putting double paned windows in the rooms the previous owners didn't, etc.

Fifth, I'll reuse as much as possible. Or go back to #3 and give things away--to friends, Value Village, ReStore, or on Craigslist. I'm not going to have uppers in my kitchen. But, other than looking old, there's nothing wrong with them. So I'm going to give them a fresh coat of pretty paint, look at the thrift shops for some pretty hardware, and hang them in my library (office), of course at a much lower level that I can actually reach, haha!

And last, the yard. Oh my. I can't say the previous owners wasted water or anything else, as the yard is basically dirt and weeds. The new owner of the mobile home park has been trying to crack down on yards that people have neglected, and this is one of the worst.

But now I have a wonderful opportunity! I can create a yard that is both aesthetically pleasing AND doesn't waste our most precious resource--water. I've always wanted to design a beautiful, drought-resistant yard, and now I get to! AND I'm going to show how it can be done for very, very little money. Plus, I'll get to have a veggie & fruit garden and demonstrate how much money people can save on their grocery bill by planting their own, organically grown, delicious produce! Whoo hoo!

Sorry for the novel-length post and for getting on my soapbox! I truly hope I haven't offended anyone. I deleted a paragraph of ranting against grass lawns that use up tons of water. ;-)

Scone911, I'm sooo with you on better housing options for us folk who are aging physically but still young at heart! One good argument for manufactured homes: they are (almost all) on one level, much easier to maintain, and you can have your garden! Some of the 50+ parks are just awesome! Or you can put it on your own land. I'll be coming to you for advice when I put my veggie garden in!

Have a great day, everyone! :-)

^ Yep. I think manufactured homes can be part of the solution, although I think they could be better built. Their performance in high winds, e.g. tornadoes, is a worry. There have been a couple of architects working on this problem. But construction standards are only part of the problem. It's also about ownership and control.

Warning, /rant on.

I prefer co-housing and other mutualist forms of ownership. As long as the residents do not own the land, there's a potential problem. The park owner can kick people out and sell, he can raise ground rents, he can make all sorts of trouble. (I'm sure there are nice park owners, but the issue remains.)

Even if it's just a matter of ground rent increasing each year, that's hard on people with few assets, especially if they are relying mostly on Social Security. It would obviously be better to fix one's total housing bill, to the extent that it's possible, and not have to worry as much about increasing costs.

And I'm not crazy about the solutions that currently exist. When a for-profit corporation owns a "retirement home," "assisted living center," "memory care," etc. there is potential for a serious conflict of interest. The thought of a whole generation of Boomers left to the tender mercies of Wall Street sponsored housing corporations bugs me. I'd rather that residents and guardians have much greater control, and in this culture that means legal ownership.

I think co-housing, TIC, and co-op projects with small homes, for older people and possibly Millenials, with some memory care facilities. connected to a community center, and facilities for renewable energy, could really make a difference. It's not very different from what exists now, except for the most important factor: ownership. It's simply more democratic.

Unfortunately, these projects seem to take a long time to get off the ground, and the capital is scarce. But the conversation has begun. Maybe this forum can be part of the solution?

/rant off

To the OP: sorry about the thread hijack, I'll take it elsewhere if you want. :)

I don't mind the hijack at all Scone. If you want to create more discussion on this topic though, a new thread would probably draw more people than the mundane subject title of this one. :)

The park owner can kick people out and sell, he can raise ground rents, he can make all sorts of trouble. (I'm sure there are nice park owners, but the issue remains.)

Yes, this. Where I live in FL this has become a huge problem for people who want to or have to live in mobile homes. Around here I don't understand why anyone would, actually. Besides the cost of the house you pay at least $600 a month in ground rent. (I have to assume the laws are different where you are, Debbie.)

Because they are a big chunk of property, and frequently property that is incorporated so that it has some immunity from county zoning laws, these places are major targets for developers. Hereabouts, mobile home communities are constantly being bought out and there is no longer any place much for people to go now. The new owners of the only one left in our area have decided to try to be a "resort" and so in addition to a greatly increased ground rent the people who already live there are under serious pressure to replace their current units with Katrina cottages, which are very charming but start north of 80K. And 80K plus $600-1400 a month for ground leasing, who can afford that (and why would you)? Five years ago they were giving trailers away for $1 to get people in there, before the owners sold it.

Thanks, lucy, I'm just rambling, I get a thought and yammer on like a mad thing. I don't know where I'm going most of the time.

I'm just interested in affordable housing in general. not that I've made a deep study of it. I'll start a new thread in a bit. Thanks again.

"I'm just rambling, I get a thought and yammer on like a mad thing. I don't know where I'm going most of the time."

ha! we're so alike here...

What an interesting discussion....

I had a sink and DW perpendicular to each other and it was fine. Here is it...

plans for livingroom/diningroom combo · More Info

In regards to kitchens not needing updates or remodels, because they look fine. I agree to some extent, but I think pics can be very misleading. If you look at the pics below, you don't see the water damage to the entire sink corner of the kitchen. You also don't see that the range and refrigerator open into each other and that the range is placed right at the entrance of the kitchen work area. So, every single time an animal or grandkiddo come charging around the corner, I die a little. That every time you bake the fire alarms go off due to a lack of ventilation. Since it is all hardwired, that means every alarm in the house. That many of the lowers are pretty much useless due to weird small sizes and pullouts. That when you are not tall undermount sinks and upper cabinets are uncomfortable and annoying. I could go on, but you get my point. Unless you live there....

I also agree that so many of the remodels look alike. But, if you don't have that uniqueness to start with, I think it's harder to achieve. What do you do to a 1970's tract house? You do the best you can with what you have. I'm hoping my own remodel is unique and reflects us. But, who knows. Unique to us, may be boring to others.

And, as far as waste....be mindful and do the best you can.

My totally dysfunctional for us kitchen, that looks perfectly fine. Honestly, I just plain hate it., it's downright ugly.

Now (before) · More Info

Now (before) · More Info

Now (before) · More Info

good enough for government work

lol!

I admit, that my expectations are very high for this kitchen. But, we are doing it on a "pay as we go" with no time limit. We started the remodel back in January/February of 2014, I think. If it take another 2 years or so, I'm okay with that.

Re: the kitchen forum. I love it over there. So much information and so many beautiful kitchens. But, I am a very visual person. I would rather walk a couple of extra feet than look at an off-centered sink every morning. It would drive me crazy.

Also, I really don't get eliminating every single extra step and making every little thing more convenient. People with greater longevity tend do more everyday activities, like walking, gardening, tending the home. Adding a few steps to get to the fridge seems like a good idea to me, not a negative.

But, I am a very visual person. I would rather walk a couple of extra feet than look at an off-centered sink every morning. It would drive me crazy.

Me too, that's the way my current sink is. The original owner had a door to the outside, then closed it up and put a sink in, but never bothered centering the plumbing. I would have changed it, but there wasn't time.

I don't mind walking a couple of extra steps, I'm 20 pounds overweight and can stand to burn a few calories. Anyway, my kitchen is only 10' x 13', so I'm not exactly running a marathon here.

The mood I like is an art studio for cooking, not an efficient factory or a fast food joint.

"I would rather walk a couple of extra feet than look at an off-centered sink every morning. It would drive me crazy."

those are things each one has to decide for their kitchen. I don't think an off center sink would bother me - but continually needing to go a few extra feet to get something surely would.

I love having the fridge about 2' to the R of my sink and the stove about 2' to the L of it. it's all right there for me. I don't have a lot of kitchen stuff anymore so most of what i do have is close at hand. If I had a ton like I did years ago, there wouldn't be room in my smallish kitchen. (about 9x10), I don't cook very much anymore, so I really don't need that much. Years ago I did (my kitchen was a buzz then), but my body was younger then and didn't mind walking across the room a few times. Nowadays I tire easily and my back often hurts so less 'fetching' is better!

and some of those kitchens on the KF are very large!

Maybe a dishwasher drawer would eliminate the tripping hazard of a "perpendicular" DW. Even if you backed into it, you wouldn't fall over it, the thing would stop you. They are expensive though, and get mixed reviews. I used one in a rental once, and was not deeply impressed by its cleaning. It seemed to go on the fritz at random intervals, then come back "online" for no good reason. But maybe they have improved lately, IDK.

those are things each one has to decide for their kitchen

Yes, exactly. At times the KF seems so attached to the "rules" that they forget that unique individuals use those kitchens.

We are buying a new DW. I asked our appliance guru about the drawers while we were shopping around. She said they do not works as well as your standard DW.

I'll confess I sometimes enjoy when OP's rebel against TKO 'rules'. Can be amusing. :-)

These comments about the KF make me giggle. I guess most of y'all weren't there during the frenzy back before the crash when no kitchen that didn't have a six-figure budget was worthy. It was a lot of fun to read, but holy moly, those were some kind of kitchens. Heaven help you if you planned to use something like ikea. That's why Susan started ikeafans, as a refuge for those who planned to use the Cabinets That Could Not Be Named.

For all that it may still seem a bit uptight to people who don't know what it was like when everyone thought they had plenty of money, it's loosened up a lot. You can even say "Formica" now. :-) Appliances, now, that one hasn't changed as much---still very aspirational.

Re dish drawers, they can do just as we'll as other DWs, but it's quite a learning curve to figure out to load them so that they do. If a regular DW is an option, I'd stick with that instead. You get a lot more bang for your buck with a regular model.

I have it. I hate it. Maybe because when my dishwasher is open I can only access half of my sink. Or maybe because the cupboard for my dishes is above it, but on the sink wall. So I either have to unload the dishwasher onto the counter first and then close it to load the cupboard, or squeeze into the 10" between the dishwasher and counter to unload. It effectively makes my kitchen a one person space for clean up.

writersblock, Lolz! Some of those polar white kitchens with huge marble islands, subway tile, and chrome industrial lights really creep me out. I see a cadaver being dissected in a pathology lab. All they need is a blood groove.

You should suggest it, scone. They would not only get an easier cleanup but an excuse for yet another ginormous scary faucet. :) And I bet there could be dozens of threads about the correct dimensions and is my fabricator ripping me off/incompetent because he doesn't seem to do this all the time.

"All they need is a blood groove"

runnels!

" You can even say "Formica" now."

oh, I bet they loved me! but I don't care. didn't when I first started here 5 or 6 yrs back. I got a quick sense that laminate was bad (ick!). I raised 4 kids for `14 yrs with it and it was fine. no worries - well, except when someone purposely stuck a knife in it (that was my X). and I drop things because of my hands / wrists. my sister has the same problem and has dropped lots of glass things onto her granite and her tile floors. She found slivers of glass in her LR for wks after one drop... I want no part of them. there are some I think are extremely beautiful tho. Maybe a piece hanging on the wall over the stove/cooktop as BS art.

but having her put in granite and tile floors several yrs before I needed to decide on anything sure made laminate and vinyl top options for me.

Also, for yrs I would be so tired and sore after just a few hours at her house. it took me forever to link it to the tile floors. Her whole main floor is tile, so everywhere I walked it was on tile - and she has a very long hallway to walk down when entering from her garage to her kit/LR area. (very bad planning for bringing in groceries!) With my bad back and feet, tile is not for me. I had vinyl planks put in. She hates the tile.

you do have to be strong and hold your own. Carrie sure did! there were a number of things some wanted her to do (or not do) but she had her reasoning and her wants and went with them.

everyone is different and so are their homes and how they live. I wouldn't know what to do with a huge expensive kitchen. it'd be such a waste to me.

Yeah, I was never drawn to granite just because I don't like all the movement in it, but I was surprised at how much I really hated working on it the first time I stayed and cooked in a house with granite counters. Not my thing at all. (I do love tile, though, but I'm in steamy FL, which makes a difference.)

I wouldn't know what to do with a huge expensive kitchen. it'd be such a waste to me.

Likewise. I spend a lot of time as a sitter at a friend's house and they have a kitchen which would only be moderate in size by KF standards, but it drives me crazy how far away everything I need always is when I'm cooking. I much prefer my too-small kitchen to those elephants with great barrier islands that they love so much.

To me, if your kitchen needs an island it means the space wasn't portioned out right to begin with. So yeah, they're a great solution when you have an existing kitchen with tons of surplus floor, but why anyone would deliberately create that situation is beyond me.

I can't see ripping up a mountain in Brazil, displacing native people, and shipping the stuff thousands of miles just so I can make a sandwich. I had some granite in a previous house at DH's request, but never again. Especially not here in New England.

I would consider soapstone tile around a woodstove, because that stuff really retains heat, and I think (hope) we have better environmental and safety rules on quarries here.

One thing you don't see much these days is a central kitchen table and chairs, but sitting down to prep is actualy pretty relaxing. Snap beans, peeling potatoes, etc.

Yes, scone911, Washington has excellent laws on the books that prevent manufactured homes communities owners from the predatory behaviors you're talking about. Our lot rent here was recently raised for the first time in ten years, from $245/mo. to $280. Rent covers water (well) and septic. I should say that we're out from the city and surrounded by farms, and it's a very small park, just 38 homes. The former owners live here in their MH, and the wife is still the manager. They are super laid back people; the park rules haven't been changed since 2002, lol. But in WA, you can't change park rules without a meeting at least six months in advance of the change. And if the land is ever sold for another use, they have to give you notice a full year in advance. WA also has a fund so if you do have to move and are low income, they give you $7,000 to help with the move. That wouldn't cover it all, but would help.

But I agree with every single thing you said! I look forward to ranting on your new thread ! ;-) By the way, my best friend is writing her dissertation on employee owned businesses. I bet you'd really like it.

I should also mention that today's manufactured homes are constructed very well. Regular wall board, studs, and subfloors, no different from a site built home.

But back to our regularly scheduled programming...no, I wasn't there on the KF back in the day, but I've read some threads from that era, yikes! It definitely has mellowed since then.

Formica is an excellent company that makes products that can stand up to families with children and last for decades! I never knew there was anything else until I was in my 20's, haha! A granite slab would cost more than I paid for this house, lol, and while it can be beautiful, I'd probably ruin it by setting a hot pan on it, cutting into it while slicing an onion, forgetting that I have a cutting board, or never getting around to sealing it...

While I do cook pretty much every day, it is very simple stuff...I enjoy cooking, but I'm no gourmet. I don't need a chef's kitchen or a show kitchen; I need a working kitchen! My kitchen does follow Marcolo's infamous ice, water, stone, fire, but the "stone" is sorely lacking...there is very little counter space. So for me, the footprint will not change, but I'm knocking out that china hutch and replacing it with a counter height island/table. IKEA base cabs (drawers!) with a butcher block counter top. Counter height, comfortable stools with backs to replace the table.

Wendy makes an excellent point. Just as we don't want to be judged for our small, NOT six figure kitchens, we should not judge someone else's remodel based on pictures that look just fine to us. Believe me, there are millions of people in Zambia, where I just lived for a year, that would find all of our kitchens to be opulent! Formica counters--are you kidding? They're doing their kitchen prep on the cement or dirt floor!

Wendy, I do like the way your corner sink is facing two nice big windows! I'm feeling like a hermit here. Joy and I have moved into our house, but my friends (the hoarder) haven't moved out yet. She doesn't allow any curtains to be open, ever.

OK, here's the built-in cabinet. You can see the LR to the right, and the K to the left. Please remember this isn't my stuff! It's the hoard, lol!

A straight-on shot of the kitchen. You can see, from L to R, ice, water, stone, fire. Notice the location of the range. It can't be opened all the way because it bangs into the cabinet under the sink. Also note lack of counter space. Even when it gets cleaned up, it's still very little.

This is shows the back side of the china cabinet and the "eat in" portion of the kitchen. My friends use lots of bookcase like structures to hold all their stuff.

The bump out here houses the furnace. I'm hoping to go to a mini split heat/air system, and then I can knock out that bump-out and get some more counter space. I'm eliminating all the uppers because I can't reach them.

This is a house where you have to picture the possibilities! :-)

Sorry all. I'm going against the popular opinion here and using marble in part of the kitchen and wood in the rest. I hate tile floors. It kills my feet and hips.

A friend took all the granite from the old kitchen. They will also be taking flooring, not the tile flooring. I have another that uses the old windows. We have been trying to keep the waste to a minimum.

Deb, there are always possibilities.

I posted a thread asking about hood design and my entire kitchen plan got the what for. :-/

Debbie - is Joy taller? what's the height off the counter up to the bottom of those uppers? the uppers in my old place were very high also. I didn't use them. my kitchen went from about 1' to the L of your sink (my sink went right up to the corner), then around the corner about 15 or so inches (where the stove is in your pic), then the fridge. then there was another flr - ceiling cab that I didn't use. where your fridge is I put a dressing table with my mw on it.

Wendy - i'll have to take a look over there. saw one about a hood but since I know nothing about them I didn't read that thread.

Wendy, hi! I don't think you're going against popular opinion here. :-) If I may so bold as to speak for the group, I think Steph and I were just saying granite isn't right for us in our situations. I'm always saying that if YOU love it, whether it be choice of counter tops, kitchen layout, appliances, color schemes, then YOU should get it because it's YOUR kitchen!! And I believe the folks on this forum would agree. :-) I think granite, marble, and other stones are gorgeous; they just wouldn't work in my situation. I'd get slate if I could afford it, but I need to put my money elsewhere.

Hahaha about getting slammed on the KF; I'm not really laughing at you, I'm laughing that you posted a hood question and got a negative review on your layout, which was not the question you asked. I once mentioned my color scheme for my future kitchen remodel in passing on someone else's thread and got slammed. "Hideous," "Batcave," "I wouldn't even look at your house if you were selling it," "dark," "ugly," ...those are just the ones I remember, lol!! Luckily, I have a pretty thick skin and just don't give a flying leap about what people who don't live in my house think about my colors. :-) So hang in there and don't take it personally. :-)

I'm with you and Steph on the tile floors. They are very hard on the joints. Terrible on knees. And unforgiving with anything dropped on them. I'm hoping when I re-do my floors to get vinyl planks. The floors here aren't bad on the joints; it's sheet flooring of some kind. And it's in the K, hall, and baths (one full bath, very tiny, and one powder room that make's Jay's look spacious, haha!). The LR and bedrooms have carpet. All the flooring has to be replaced for several reasons, only one of which is that it's ugly as sin, lol. The hall has two soft spots, (the leak has been repaired), and they are major trip hazards. The carpets have to be replaced because they are so filthy no carpet cleaning will be good enough. Can you say three dogs, two cats, a hoarder, and two people who think housecleaning is optional, haha? I will get the carpets cleaned to at least get some pet hair out. I originally wanted the vinyl everywhere, but I'm now thinking I'll re-carpet the bedrooms to save money.

Steph--Joy is 5'2" to my 5"1', but I can't stand fully upright so really I'm shorter than that. Reaching up is also difficult with my arthritic shoulders. Not sure about the counter to cab measurement; I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Well, I could stand it no longer and cleaned the kitchen up again, over the protests of my friend. Here's some better pics now:

Left to Right:

The view from afar:

And I'd really like to find the person who designed this kitchen! Besides the oven that can't fully open because it bangs into the sink cab, see that heat vent on the floor, right in the work space? What was s/he thinking?!? Who does that?!?

Wendy, I may have just gotten myself kicked off the KF, haha, but I posted a comment on your hood trim question. I hope what I said doesn't offend you in any way! :-)

Debbie, I really liked your comment on Wendy's KF thread. Spot on.

@Debbie, I hear you about MH, the code has tightened up over the years. Still, a house built in the 70s is almost bound to need work, whether site built or manufactured. My first concern would be earthquakes, so bolting it to a solid foundation, if it isn't already. When I was building in Oregon, I had long convos with my engineer about earthquakes, mudslides, etc. which impressed me profoundly. Apparently there are no perfect solutions.

My last place was built in 1970, by stoners, I swear. By the time I came along it almost needed to be rebuilt due to dry rot. Also vermin infestations. I've worked on Victorian houses with fewer issues. I did what I could, but I'm relieved that drama is over.

I'm glad Washington state has some decent protections in place. Still, I'd like to see more legal options. In Berkeley, there were quite a few properties using the TIC (tenants in common) structure. Also co-housing cooperatives. As you can see, I'm more anarchist than socialist. Or maybe anti-statist. I get confused.

As for your kitchen, it's actually bigger than I imagined given your description. When all the stuff gets out, it will be even bigger. Why did people ever put cabinet knobs right in the middle of the door?

Have you decided against the type of pull-down upper cabinet that's designed for people with disabilities?

I'm going to strongly advocate for sheet vinyl. Boy howdy, that stuff is nice, the edges don't come up, no seams, very easy to clean, good grip for the feet, but no excessive texture. The sheet vinyl you typically see at Home Cheapo can be kind of tacky looking, but the commercial stuff is about the same price as the better vinyl planks, IIRC.

ETA: I was curious and read the KF thread, you're right on. Some of those pros need to take a chill pill.

Deb, thanks for visiting the thread. I tried to stay strong. But, I will admit they had me questioning myself.

Thanks for posting the new kitchen pics. Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out what is what in pics I better understand you layout now. (We have that same vent issue, btw. But ours is rusty from the water damage, lol.)

My GF put vinyl planking in her home years ago and loved it. It was some off brand Menards thing, but it was actually very pretty and easy on the body. Held up pretty well too. But, her home didn't have a lot going on. It was pretty quiet.

I think I remember you saying you would need to have the work done in phases due to budget restrictions, yes? Do you sort of have that all figured out? How it needs to go?

I know it would be harder for you, in your circumstances, but make sure you shop around. I found the flooring I liked at HD, then found it almost 50% cheaper online. Sink less than 50% retail on ebay. Range less than 30% retail sears outlet.

But in WA, you can't change park rules without a meeting at least six months in advance of the change. And if the land is ever sold for another use, they have to give you notice a full year in advance. WA also has a fund so if you do have to move and are low income, they give you $7,000 to help with the move.

Well, yeah, theoretically we have all that in FL, too (although I believe it's only 6K in assistance). The problem comes when there's no place left to go. Hopefully your area is years away from that.

I think good quality sheet vinyl is a great idea. Planking is sometimes iffish in areas that are going to get wet.

I think that just getting rid of all that extra stuff is going to go a long way towards making the place more livable.