water softener sizing question

8 years ago

I'm about to embark on a kitchen renovation and will be installing a water softener for our house. Primarily, I want the softener to extend the life of my appliances and tankless water heater.

My home details:

2 full bathrooms (master bath with 6 shower heads!)

4 people in house (2 kids, 2 adults)

~2800 sq feet

City water

According to our city's 2015 water quality report:

hardness = 156 ppm or 9.11 gpg

pH 8.19

Chloride = 6.96 ppm

I'm looking at a Hellenbrand Promate 6.0 DMT which is sold by one of our local dealers. He's selling it for $2500 including installation, which seems expensive.

However, is this a good unit for my needs? How do I determine how much of a "softener" I need?

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Comments (4)

User
8 years ago
In order to size a softener correctly we need to know the water conditions at the house after the water has travel who knows how many miles through who knows the condition of the supply pipes. IMO water authority reports that are usually years old and sampled at the treatment plant are not the smartest choice.

That said, you've provided almost all the other info necessary with the exception of the SFR of the plumbing and the diameter of the water service pipe at the installation point.

The Hellenbrand Promate 6.0 DMT is not a bad softener but I avoid softeners that mix media and the Vortech distributor device they tout is new and does not have long term proven reliability or any benefit in the field. The industry standard distributor tube with top and bottom baskets has been around for decades with no problems. You can get an industry standard softener assembled with proven first rate components for a lot less money.

So, here's water softener 101...

Get a water test from a certified independent lab. A certified independent lab has no agenda and won't be trying to sell you water treatment equipment. This is a MUST DO because without it everything is a guess. A quickie water test from a water softener company won't be as accurate (and possibly not as competent) as from a certified independent lab.

If you're on a water system the water utility can supply you with the specs of the water AS IT LEAVES their facility but that is not necessarily representative of the water conditions at your water meter after traveling through miles and miles of pipe and valves.

Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros who will be listed but without a national brand name affiliation. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED.

Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated.

Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater? Warranty... parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install... permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

After they've gone use your water test to compare with theirs. Are all your treatment needs being addressed?

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.

Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.

If you're a DIYer then you have other options but remember, when you do it yourself there's no one else to blame.
Becky thanked User
Becky
Original Author
8 years ago
sound like this will be quite the adventure.... :) But I'm game!

Seriously though, I've been studying your posts, justalurker, for the past couple of days. You have quite a repository of information on this forum! It's been very enlightening and helpful. Thank you!

So, I've contacted a local certified lab and will get them to come analyze my water.

The local independent Hellenbrand dealer is coming to my house next Thursday to analyze my water and inspect my installation. They used to sell Culligan softeners for 20 years until it went downhill (according to them). They have been selling Hellenbrand for 6-7 years or so.

My softener will need to be installed outside next to my front porch behind some azaleas. He told me earlier that it's not recommended to put it outside because it can freeze. So I'll have to get a cover built for it, it seems. And he says that it can be buried about halfway into the ground.

I got my undergraduate degree in chemistry and I'm pretty web-savvy. It's crazy how loosey-goosey the water softener industry is. Tons of mis-information. Incredibly difficult to find straight answers. As you said, I just want an industry-standard system that fits my needs.

Thanks again, justalurker! Will keep you posted.
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Assuming you have a 9x48 resin tank which should have 1 cu ft of resin and you use a medium salt dose of 9 lbs you get 26,000 grains of hardness removal. Using the formula at the above link that results in a setting of 660 gallons because I find 60 gpd per person more realistic than 75 gpd. That includes a reserve calculated in. Ideally you want a softener to regenerate every 6 to 7 days unless there is iron and then more frequently. I think your small 1 cu ft softener will regen every 4 to 5 days. You could increase the hardness removal capacity of your 1 cu ft of resin by increasing the salt dose at the expense of salt efficiency. At a high salt dose of 12 lbs you'd set the gallons at 750 using 60gpd per person.
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A 1 cu ft (9x48 resin tank) softener (32k) using Purolite C100 resin would be a wiser choice and you can set it up for an efficent salt dose. A few feet away is no problem but across the room... no. The absolute maximum distance of the brine tank from the control valve (on resin tank) depends on the control valve you choose and that answer should be provided to you by who you buy the softener from, if they know what they're doing. If they don't then shop elsewhere.
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I assume you do not currently have a softener in place. Please confirm. I will try to go through your questions in order. Conductivity: This will always be higher than TDS. It has to do with they types of ions in your water. Your conductivity is on the high end of the scale based on your TDS, but not out of line. Other analysis: Do you have any rusty, brown, or black staining on fixtures? If so - test your water for iron and manganese. Sediment filtration: Two cartridge filters is certainly a viable option. Install them in parallel so that one cartridge may be changed without interrupting water supply to your home. Make sure to use 4" diameter, not 2". Big Blue is a very reliable brand. I like the clear housings for a visible indicator, but that is just my personal preference. All cartridge filters are a pain to change. If you currently have to make frequent cartridge changes you may wish to consider a backwashing sediment filter instead of cartridges. It would be similar in appearance to a softener, but pretty much no work on your part to operate. Softeners: Kinetico softeners are very reliable, but expensive (as you mentioned). If you are willing to spend the money up front and like your local dealer, they would be a good choice. Regeneration time is not an issue with any twin-tank softener, whether Kinetico or Fleck, since one tank is always available to provide soft water while the other is being regenerated. A Fleck of Clack twin tank softener would take up significantly more space than a Kinetico because you would have to purchase a larger softener to accommodate the higher flow rate for your jacuzzi tub. Sprinkler system: Yes, bypass the sprinkler system. There is no sense paying to soften all that extra water. RO: Any RO system will last longer if fed softened water. The minerals you get from water are in minute quantities - even heavily mineral laden water would be insufficient to provide the minerals your body needs. Additionally, your water has nitrates. If you want them removed from your drinking water, RO is the only reasonable way to do so. Why do you want a carbon filter? What, specifically, do you want removed from your water? Certainly two would be overkill. Once may be as well, unless you have a specific contaminant in mind. Softener bypass: Here is a picture of what a three-valve bypass should look like. And a drawing of a setup:
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Bypass: 2 is redundant. I like built-in redundancy, but it's your call. If you prefer to have just one or the other, go with the three quarter-turn, full-port valves rather than the softener bypass. Efficiency: Higher salt dosage during regen yields higher capacity, at a cost of purchasing and carrying more salt. If you wish to maintain close to the initial system capacity, you would have to use obscene amounts of salt to do so. Lower salt dosage yields lower capacity at a cost of more water usage and a larger softener. The "sweet spot" where salt efficiency and water efficiency cross is at 6 lb salt per cubic foot of softener resin. Sizing: A 1.5 cubic foot system is too small for your needs. It would work now, but not when you expand your family. The reason your calculations are off is because you have neglected the capacity reduction that occurs due to salt dosage. Your current water usage is about 42 gpd per person. Using that usage rate, at a reasonable salt dosage of 6 lb salt per cubic foot of resin, you need a 2 cubic foot system (some vendors will call this a ~64,000 grain system). Actual capacity (at 6 lb salt per cubic ft resin) will be 42,000 grains. It will regen every 14 days now and every 7 days with two additional people in your home. If you expect water usage per person to increase, go with a 2.5 cubic foot softener. [CAVEAT: You need to know your water TDS, and pH to be certain of this sizing. That analysis could change the way the softener must be operated and may affect sizing as well as salt requirements. Get your city's water report] Water filter: If you would like the possibility for the future, just install a three-valve bypass look now, upstream from your softener. This will allow you to install whatever you may want later without disrupting your water supply.
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User
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Still need to know SFR and diameter of the plumbing at installation point.

Softener must mot be allowed to freeze. I've seen softeners buried right up the control valve but perhaps your comparison shopping will get you other installation options.

The laws of physics and chemistry apply equally to all ion exchange water softeners regardless of what their marketing departments and sales people would have the customer believe.
Becky thanked User
Becky
Original Author
7 years ago
justalurker - after a hiatus, I'm back into my water softener research.

About to send off a certified water lab test - should take a week or so to get results.

Spoke with our local Aqua Systems representative. Their company sells the SmartChoice Gen II High-Efficiency system for $1899 with free installation and 7 year warranty on parts, lifetime on resin and brine tank. Their dealer is a certified water specialist. It's a 32,00 grain system with 1 cu ft of resin.

With 4 people in the house and a sprinkler system, I'm calculating 275 gallon usage per day. Based on our city water quality report, we have 9.1 grains per gallon. (I'll update this number when I get the water quality report.) So we need 2500 grains of hardness removed per day.

The softener is rated at 32,000 grain removal capacity. Does that mean the softener will regenerate every 13 days?

SmartChoice GenII High-Efficiency System

I'm still a little confused on salt efficiency and water efficiency. How do you determine the salt efficiency of the system?

The diameter of the plumbing is 3/4". Will get you the SFR.

Lastly, you seem to imply from your posts that getting a softener from a dealer is preferable rather than DIY projects. This seems reasonable since you have someone local to repair and service it. What's a reasonable price-point for a quality water softener though given my needs?

water softener sizing question

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