Ah yes, a system that relies upon trickery and greed, the basest of human characteristics. Capitalism at its finest. Now, if you aren't happy, you're supposed to 'vote' with your dollar and change companies. Best of all though, you weren't supposed to notice... or care. At least New Coke was honest and upfront. I don't think a 'truth-in-advertising' promotional blurb would have worked though...

"Now with skinnier rolls!"

My husband bought a 6 pack of ginger ale. It used to come in 8 oz but now it's 7 oz and the cans are narrower and a little taller and the same price. Seems a lot of items are being smaller except for the price.

Sorry, this isn't new..... Years ago I went on a campaign to try to figure the "best price" for TP. That's all I wanted - unit price - it wasn't about personal preference, comfort --- just figuring the cost. What I discovered was the only way to factor the price is by weight, so I ended up begging/buying/borrowing rolls of TP and weighing them on a scale to figure unit price. It was the only variable they all shared that I could quantify into unit price.

As you discovered, some rolls are anywhere from 1/4-1/2" difference in width, and variables within brands change all the time. Even the cardboard tubes inside vary in weight, and Scott has a tubeless variety. The length of the sheets are different sizes, so that didn't work for computations. Then I learned - just don't complicate things with plys.... You'll pay more for more than one ply. And the ultimate variable, you can't control how much people pull off the roll per use... That is, unless you are a friend of ours who was a missionary in Mexico and only allowed his family 2 sheets per use.

After all was said and done, I found the best buys are generally the larger number of sheets per roll (Scott 1,000 sheets, Dollar General 4-pack 1,250 sheets per roll) - your "John Wayne" brands (rough and tough and doesn't take "stuff" off of anyone). Sorry Mr. Wipple, if it's soft and squishy, it's also more expensive and there is less on the roll. Now remember, this was about cost ONLY. Your personal preferences may go far beyond the cost, and that's your prerogative.

The best priced, and probably the least liked, is to make and use reusable cloth wipes and/or use a personal bidet, and eliminate, or use less, TP.

I'm constantly figuring things by it's unit price, which is why I carry my PRICE BOOK any time I'm shopping - for comparison of former unit prices. I learned my lesson from the great "shrink-ray effect" on things from 8-years ago.

Bought sugar yesterday in the familiar sealed sack, but it is only 4 pounds these days.

Weight isn't necessarily a good measure for toilet paper as the thickness and heft (and so weight per sheet) will vary from type to type. Everyone has their preferences, as noted. Personally, I dislike the lighter types so while that may be a better value (more sheets per pound), it isn't what we want to use.

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Packages get smaller deceptively for money reasons, of course. Downsizing packages is more accepted with consumer products than a price increase.

Everyone wants a raise. If you're a company producing a product, your input materials get more expensive because your suppliers raise their prices over time. Because their suppliers and employees want raises. And all your other costs (including labor) increase because everyone wants a raise.

And you, the company producing this product, also want a raise for your net income even though your costs are increasing. So you reduce costs as you can, and then it turns to product pricing. Either you raise your prices (which customers won't always accept) or you put less product into the package.

As grainlady says, this isn't new.

I read last year's thread and took the tip by Tibbrix , bought a case of Feathersoft from Webstaurant and am still using it. Saved mucho dinero. Thanks Tibbrix :)

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2827072/the-size-of-toilet-paperso-much-smaller-now?n=52

I hadn't thought about weight. I compare square footage. I recently chose 'strength' vs 'soft' -- same brand advertising this way. 'Soft' was more expensive per sq ft. The 'strong' variety is plenty soft. Maybe some people never experienced the rough stuff in school lavatories or the thin, almost *waxed* varieties in other countries.

The trickery is not new but to me the latest assumptions made are borderline insulting! i.e., new "friendlier size--who socializes with packaging???

you are happy if your niece who works at tp co. gets a raise and at the same time upset about tp costing more, unfortunately, One is at the expense of the other. Just how the ball bounces, sigh

I opened a new box of toothpicks yesterday. The same brand and size I have bought for the past 25 (?) years, Diamond.

I didn't have an older box to compare exactly, but the new toothpicks are small enough in diameter to almost qualify as a needle. They are very thin and flimsy; I don't think I could spear an appetizer together with them. I think they're shorter, too, but it's not as obvious as the shrinking diameter.

Shameful.

I have a tall handled sauerkraut stomper I use in the powder room to stack toilet paper on the handle. I have always left one on the bottom from a few years ago, just to compare the present size to it. You would not seriously believe it. I'll bet if you strung it out it would twice as long. As for the soft vs the strong. How come years ago, we had one choice and that was soft which I always pick now. So many choices on one stupid little product.

We buy the Kirkland brand toilet paper. According to news items, that is the #1 seller at Costco.

We have noticed that while they used to have 36 rolls in the package (6 sleeves of 6 rolls) they now have 30 rolls. 5 sleeves of 6 rolls.

LOL! I hope your keychain induced affliction is temporary!

I used to carp about "double rolls". The "mega rolls" look silly on a standard spindle and wobble back and forth, but they do last longer enough that they actually get put on the spindle.

Do any of you remember OLD TP? The kind that came in two really big rolls per package and lasted for a long time?

I'm not sure how long it took me to notice a 5 pound bag of sugar went to 4 pounds. Then a pound of coffee down to 13 oz. 32 oz can of collards now at 27 oz. Sometimes I forget to look at the price because I'm sneering at the weight/volume. lol

Grainlady - your missionary friend sounds a bit like my dear old dad -- silly man could never believe his womenfolk (his wife and 4 daughters) really needed more than a few sheets of TP, which was sufficient for him, lol. So he often griped about how fast the TP got used up and the expense of it all. And back in the day the TP was very thin and rather scratchy. Ah, memories....

Cans of spaghetti sauce have been shrinking--years ago they started at 32 oz, and the last I bought are 24 oz.

Store brand saltine crackers were on sale today at Kroger. I picked up the 'wheat' cracker box and compared the ingredients to the list on the box of regular white saltines. The only difference in the list of ingredients was caramel coloring in the 'wheat' crackers. I know they are both made of wheat, but how many people think they are getting the whole grain when the box says 'wheat'?

What about soap pods? I totally think those are trickery, same as "bit size" candy bar pieces, like snickers. And what about the size of cookie packages, first the cookies shrunk, now the packaging, I haven't bought them in years but laugh every time I see those tiny packages marked "family size" on the shelf. What really shocked me the other day was the prices of beef at Costco. A package of 2 chuck roasts use to run about 2.89/lb and yesterday it was 4.99 lb, 26 dollars average for a package. I love a good roast, but I kept on walking. Not trickery I know but still shows how prices keep going up. Getting poorer is an understatement. lol

That 16 oz package of bacon is now 12 oz.

The only good thing about this trickery is that perhaps we will eat less (or will we just buy more?). DH was commenting about coffee sizes the other day

Have you noticed that now TP in most public restrooms is not much wider than adding machine paper?

Most of the items mentioned have been this way for a long time around here.

As mentioned there really is no good way to compare "apples to apples" for cost/value on toilet paper. To me the best way still is by the sheet. People use it by the sheet, not by weight. They're conditioned to take a certain length and that's what goes and it doesn't matter how many plies, how wide, how thick, whether it's quilted or has pink flowers or lotion on it. So, to me, that's how I do a relative comparison and I know it's not ideal. I still find the 1000+ sheet versions to be the better value and for me, it's good enough for what it does.

I don't remember where I saw it, maybe it was one of the hospitals, but someplace has started using a set size sheet rather than the rolls. It dispenses nearly like a facial tissue and you get a unit approximately 2-3 sheets worth. Interesting concept. Take a long time to catch on I'd guess with peoples' reluctance to change but it's an interesting idea.

Betty lee that is hilarious but oh so true

How be we all write to the toilet paper manufacturers.

Ask whether the new, narrower sheets are for "tight-assed" people.

Ask whether they test-marketed in their own establishment before making it generally available.

Hope you all have a great week.

ole joyful ... who's used about 5 (smallish) rolls in just over a week: the almost two months of 5-day per week radiation ends tomorrow

That 16 oz package of bacon is now 12 oz.

Yeah, but now most of our local Costco stores sell pork belly, so we are making our own bacon! Much less expensive, and much better tasting.

OJ, I am shocked at your language! But ROFL. ;)

Yes, but when mfgs raise prices instead of reducing sizes, people complain how much the prices has risen, with many cries of "How dare these big co's rip us off!" ensuing.

IOW, they can't win. Time doesn't stand still, and neither do the costs of life. Back in 1968 a good salary was $5,000/yr. Not any longer!

That's why you have to take inflation into account when doing retirement planning. The CPI doesn't include many items in day-to-day life - such as healthcare costs.

Where we live it takes close to six figures to be middle-class. Almost every couple we know has both working full-time jobs, whether they have kids or not.

Crackers used to fit snugly in the metal container. Now there is lots of room to spare.

joyfulguy's attitude is just what we need!! I can remember my mother admonishing me to use less tp. You know what? I didn't care then and still don't, and plan to use just as much at a time that keeps me happy! Pink

For myself (and I think it's true for others also,) it's not rising costs that makes me unhappy, it's the trickery involved.

As many of us know... in economics, there's what's called 'price point'. That's the 'sweet spot' where cost does not reduce demand. Go above the 'price point' and demand for the product drops (people do not see the value.) Go below, and the seller risks losing potential profits.

We all recognize that prices increase, it's a factor of many forces including energy, transportation, labor, raw materials etc... What is upsetting though, is when suppliers, instead of pricing in regards to costs and value, price in regards to profits. If people need toilet paper (and you bet your bottoms they do,) they may grumble, but they will pay fair increases in costs. It has nothing to do with wages (wages are a function of inflation. If wages rise, costs of basic needs proportionally rise.)

However, if competition and luxury (instead of basic needs) are involved in the price change, in order for a seller to compete with cheaper alternatives, they will use such tactics as manipulating size to keep the price point. Toilet paper is a good example: People like soft, multi-plys, but they don't absolutely need them. They could easily switch to a less luxurious style or brand. They may not like it, but they may no longer see the value in the premium choice at the higher cost.

So, what is upsetting, isn't the rise in price, it's the manipulation that pretends equal value. It's one thing if fair market value increases - that's the inevitable fact of life. It's another when size is changed without warning. The consumer of the product feels cheated because they recognize that they are not getting what they have come to expect from the product. This is the difference between an honest, fair price, and trickery based upon greed for profit. If you can't offer a product at a price people are willing to pay, you are no longer offering the same value. You should therefore not expect to reap the same profits.

In these cases, it should not be size that first suffers - or labor - rather profit. The supplier is not providing the same value, and the business (or at least such products) are literally worth-less.

rgreen, I'm a CPA and I have a degree in Economics. I recognize some of the words you've used but how you've used them isn't quite right. As an example, what you describe as "price point" is called equilibrium or market equilibrium. It's the intersection of supply and demand curves, where the quantity of goods supplied equals the quality of goods demanded. It says nothing about profit or revenue maximization. Profit (and revenue) can be higher at points other than the equilibrium point.

Let's make you Emperor for a moment. You own the company that makes the product for which costs have increased and need the profits to pay for the spending of your Empire. You can increase the price, decrease the quantity in the package, or do nothing. Which do you choose to do?

Now, you're in charge of the marketing department for the Emperor's company. You've done market research and it tells you that your customers don't want to be informed of price increases or quantity decreases (this is true). The Emperor has told you either price or quantity will change. What do you do about communicating it or not?

Price points... esp. oligopoly pricing...

Seems fairly straight forward. The rest is predicated...

What you've linked to has nothing to do with costs or cost functions as your comments above suggest. This point simply suggests that a demand curve isn't linear.

It bears saying, that most sellers of goods or services really don't have useable supply and demand DATA in an economics sense. They have financial and other empirical data and market insights but when it comes to pricing decisions, most rely on predicting and observing cause and effect.

Also, keep in mind that for consumer products, the producer is selling wholesale. While the wholesale prices affect the ultimate retail price, the decisions for prices the consumer sees are made by the stores.

I don't expect prices to remain the same. Costs, wages, etc rise and I want people to earn a living wage. Especially am willing to pay more for things made in USA, so jobs stay here. I'm amazed that people won't pay a little more money so their kids and grandkids can have jobs. Not everyone has the choice of spending a little more, but lots of us do and won't.

I became so disgusted about having to put a new roll of TP out so frequently that I went on the hunt for full sized rolls. I have septic so can't buy 2 ply. I found this on Amazon and it says 2 ply but after reading the reviews, I figured it was probably ok for septic...a case was delivered (free shipping) and it filled the whole top shelf of my linen closet. I'm sure it's a 2 year supply. No plastic packaging (another bonus), just a cardboard box filled with paper wrapped rolls. The rolls are full size and last about 2 times longer than any I've purchased in the last year or 2.

I am SO happy with this purchase...I tried to do the math but I don't care if I saved money or not. It's like TP nostalgia!
Boardwalk TP

Like Olychick, most of us want people to make a good living and understand it means paying more for stuff. But wouldn't it be nice if there was an ad agency out there that would cleverly explain this reality instead of insulting subterfuge? It would make the process of dishing out $ a little less painful, sigh

then again the ad might sound like socialist propaganda so a wall of mirrors is what works best in a capitalistic world.

Ice cream gets my goat. A 1/2 gallon is now 1.75 liters. One company, Blue Bell proudly emblazons on their product something like "Still a half gallon." And good for them. They think consumers are stupid but when everyone is downsizing their products what can one do? You notice it in recipes when they call for a "large" can of evaporated milk or whatever & now the size is different.

If you look at the sheet size on the package, it'll like say 4" x 4" whereas the older roll is 4" x 4.5". I can remember when roll widths were 5"; that time has long past.

Recall when toilet paper suddenly grew in outside diameter and would hardly fit in some built-in holders. Was there more paper in the roll. Nah, the inside hole got much bigger.

Hey joyfulguy, how full of shitake mushrooms are you to go through 5 rolls of cheekscrape in a week? ;)

I don't mind paying more for local, made in USA or the like, but what gets my goat is that employee wages really are not improving. Just the salaries of the CEO's and upper management, investors make more but the little guys they aren't making more. If it were for the little guy in truth, I wouldn't mind but I truly believe that the reality is that it's all for not.

cynic: Joyful said in his post that he was going through radiation treatments.