Well said Cynthia and thank you for the heads up.

Sounds as if it is now just like any mail order company, and the decisions are being made by some computer program, and no one there knows anything about roses.

Jackie

Cynthia, I'm sorry about this bad experience you've had with J&P, which is now just a part of a company that also owns Wayside Gardens, and Park Seed. They all operate out of Hodges, SC, and the reviews, for at least Wayside and J&P are not good. In fact Wayside got more negative reviews than positive on Dave's Garden. There are other review sites and the comments are not good. These companies have been through bankruptcies, buy outs, and traded around in recent years. Edmunds Roses and Jung Seed are now both located in Wisconsin. At one time, I read all five companies I have mentioned were all owned by the same entity. After reading about Cynthia's experience, I think I'll proceed with caution. Diane

Thank you for sharing. If I were you I would have focused on the fact that they sent a plant off to a spot that is frozen, although they probably would have told me not to order live plants at that time of the year, lol. Buyer beware. Than you again.

-Adrian

Hi folks

Glad it's helpful to other cold zone folks, and I appreciate the sympathy. I really am not all that bummed about losing the cost of those roses - they might indeed have been among the 10-20% of roses that don't survive my winters, and I take that as the natural consequence of being a zone pusher. What saddens me is the illogical nature of the policy and unwillingness to discuss the reasons or implications of this for rose growers.

I don't really see this as J&P becoming just another retailer, since most online sellers tend to err on the side of believing and refunding customers even if we're clearly in the wrong, just to not jeopardize their online sales. Sellers of everything from car batteries to shoes to books have a relatively open return or refund policy because their livelihood depends on developing customer loyalty. For an online retailer like J&P that deals in specialty merchandise, this is even more the case, but they've long since decided to not prioritize this aspect of their business. I just hope their bulk sales to other retailers are stronger so that these Zary and Carruth (etc.) roses can stay in circulation one way or another.

And as for ordering out of season, you're entirely right Adrian that this sounds illogical, but if we want to order some of the uncommon varieties we have to order them when they're released by companies, and that's usually in the winter to compete against the sales to all of you lucky warm zoners. Besides, what else is a poor zone 5 rose gardener going to do when yet another blizzard is forecasted and even the earliest spring pruning is many months away (smile)? We only have a narrow window of May-June for planting bands (including April for bare roots) to build enough root system to survive our winters, so our orders have to be fully in place before spring starts anyway. Every other rose retailer I've ever dealt with has made accommodations to order and request later delivery, unless they make an explicit statement that this is only for immediate shipment (to clean out old inventory).

It's a shame that we've lost the "old" J&P, not to resurface for the foreseeable future.

Cynthia

I ordered 2 Town and Country Roses last winter 2014 to be delivered in the Spring...2015 from J&P. They arrived in Spring at planting time, and happened to be the wrong rose, a white with pink edging. I called them and they apologized and gave me a credit code to be used this Spring 2016... No questions asked, no problems. I ordered the T and C roses and they will arrive in May. I have ordered roses late in the year, but they are to be grown in my basement over the winter (that technique is a whole different post! You have to do things to avoid gnats in your basement!!!) or in my covered window wells. :) And I agree with you completely... Roses that don't arrive in growable condition should be replaced. If not that year, then the next.

On the other hand, I had 2 wrong roses sent by a small rose company that made me jump through all kinds of hoops and I ended up telling them to forget it and keep my $50. Sometimes, I think it's who you get ahold of at the time, how they enter the information on the computer and how you respond afterwards.

For me, it's all about customer service. If I feel I have been wronged, I won't purchase from that company again... But that's just me.

The other thing I forgot to add was that when I order, I place my order by telephone. That way I get to talk with a real person that takes the information about planting time. It seems to work better for me that way instead of leaving a note online. Maybe that would help you, too.

And Cynthia... 300 roses!!! How do you do that, woman?!?

Hi Rebecca

Glad you had a better experience with your returns from J&P with their error. I totally sympathize with you about too much hassle to arrange a return with the other company, and I'm rather of that opinion about the two roses that arrived dead. You're entirely right that you can get better responses when you can talk to a real human being on the phone, but most of my rose purchasing and other rose activity tends to happen in the evenings like this when companies aren't available to talk. I remember playing tag calling one company over a period of a few weeks to get them my new credit card information - totally my goofy daytime work schedule of course, they were lovely to work with.

As for the 300 roses, if you figure 20% losses immediately over a winter, plus another 10% inexplicable established rose fading or dying in addition, it turns out to be more or less replacement rose numbers when you're upwards of 900 roses as I seem to be. Depending on rose survival, I might top 1000 for the first time ever this year but not if I get average deaths. Frankly, planting band or gallon roses (most of my purchases) aren't any harder to plant than any other perennial in terms of effort. The main challenge is figuring out exactly where I want to put them, then mixing in the alfalfa and soil conditioner to the regular soil to plant them (I have pretty good soil to start with, so I can dig a rose hole even 2' deep in a few shovelfuls). At around 15 minutes a rose, I can plant 30 roses on an average weekend day without too much strain, though bareroots take more work and deeper planting. I can start on those more gradually in April though, and I have more energy then. I really do consider myself a lazy gardener, since I don't spray or fuss over them much, and in our zones the roses don't get all that big in general so I can get away with crowding them a bit and indulging myself.

The folks who have to use a pickax to dig a rose hole are the ones to really admire. Two or three of those, and I think I'd be done for the season.

Cynthia

Aha, Diane - that's why you and gardeners like you are the ones to admire! Even saying the word "pickax" makes my back cringe in sympathetic pain, and the amount of fussing and watering and protecting and planning that you have to do in addition to that makes you candidate for a rose gardener award (as well as your choice of adult beverage). It makes it all the more impressive that you can grow such lovely lush roses - your Julia Child looks like she's in the lap of luxury rather than the harsh conditions you actually face.

Comparatively I'm quite spoiled, particularly with our crumbly, loamy soil. Not to mention it has gotten amazingly warm this week - over 60 by tomorrow which is unheard of for us in mid February. Maybe it'll be one of those wonderful mild winters after all...and I might even start early pruning at a "leisurely" pace of 150 roses a weekend.

Let us know if you need emergency supplies of Ben-Gay this spring. Adult beverages are up to you, I think, as the post office is a little starchy about mailing liquids.

Cynthia

Oh, Cynthia, what a sense of humor you have. You are the one I admire with the huge number of roses you grow, plus holding down a job, and then still have kids at home. All that, to me, is more of an accomplishment than anything I do. In spite of your good soil, I don't think Nebraska is a particularly easy place to grow things. Without going into detail, Willa Cather was a favorite author of mine, and the picture she painted of Nebraska wasn't all chocolates and novels for those tough pioneers. And my Dad was born in western NE in 1901 when it was still rough and tumble, and my Mom graduated from a Nebraska high school (only because the rural place where she lived in Kansas didn't even have a high school). I know it's still a plenty harsh place to live, weather wise, at least, and probably a lot more. It's been warm here, too--got up to 63F yesterday, and about the same today. We'll grow soft in this kind of weather. I should be out working! Diane

Well well, Diane - I knew we shared more than just a love of roses and a sense of humor! Nebraska connections and an appreciation of Willa Cather! I'm not native to Nebraska, but my husband is and I don't plan on willingly moving from my present house as long as I'm upright and kicking. For sure no one else is going to want all these roses. Frankly, chocolate and novels isn't a bad summary of my winter once you factor in the job, husband and kids. Obviously I'm going to need pruning season to kick in a little early to burn off those indulgences.

Speaking of authors, I was just reading Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything". He says most of Idaho where you are used to sit over the massive underground volcano that is now under the vast expanse of Yellowstone Park, causing all those geysers and seismic instability. Apparently before it left Idaho and slithered east a few dozen million years ago, it left behind the sorry excuse for "soil" you describe in your area. So next time you're out with your pickax, you can conveniently blame Yellowstone (and the whole associated tourist industry if you wish) for causing you misery.

Kudos to your folks for building up your sense of adventure on the high prairies. We take our fun where we find it (goats and all, eh?)

Cynthia

Bryson doesn't know what he's talking about. He's right about eastern Idaho sitting over a volcano, or something like it, but I'm 300 miles to the west of what he's talking about. I live in hills that have very dry desert soil, but not the pick ax stuff. I didn't mean to make it sound like I actually use one--though it is hard to plant roses here. About 20 miles away in the next county, is some of the best farmland in the U.S. and a center of seed production (think onion and corn, even flower seed) for the country, hybrid sweet corn development for the world, and specialty crops. Potatoes are grown 150 miles to the east and in Eastern Washington. I grew up around farms and my step dad was a huge farmer--think electric pumps, concrete ditches, and first water rights out of the Snake River. He farmed mainly in an area called Dry Lake, site of a prehistoric lake and incredibly, rich farmland. Not far away, is an award winning wine growing region, and a U.S. center for growing apples. I had better quit yapping. Bill Bryson is funny as all get out, but he says things that can be very inaccurate to get maximum comedic effect. Where I live is for houses, but not farms, obviously. My good gardening friend lives amidst the rich farm soil, has a huge, huge garden, her own well, and everything grows so easily there--not to minimize her hard work. But there is a lot of variability to this area. We aren't high prairie, but high desert which is quite different, too. I'm sorry about the soapbox, but poor, old Idaho needs some better press, I guess. I do sound contradictory, don't I? It's my love hate relationship with Idaho. Diane

Ah, good to know the real story behind Bryson's comments. I can totally relate about the mixed impressions of your state that other folks may have because of limited experiences. I've certainly only driven through a small corner of Idaho and that was when I was 3 years old (so obviously, I wasn't actually doing the driving). I can't say I have any direct impressions of Idaho, but I at least try to refrain from sounding as if I know much about it either.

Folks have similar reactions to Nebraska when they've only driven through the state on I-80 on their way to Colorado. They then complain about how flat the state is - not realizing that engineers deliberately pick flat stretches of land to build the interstates in the first place. I-80 runs along the Platte River Valley for much of its length and is of course flat, but north about 30 miles for much of I-80 run the Sand Hills, which not surprisingly are very, um, hilly. Add in the truly spectacular crane migration coming up shortly at the beginning of March and we do have natural beauties here. Just not necessarily along the interstates - you have to sit a spell and appreciate things!

Hoping to spend more quality time one of these days in Idaho, including of course the scenic beauties of your rose garden!

Cynthia

Cynthia, you are such a good hearted person. I'm sorry I got on my high horse about old Idaho. I felt so bad about it because I didn't want you to think I didn't like your comment. It was Bill Bryson that set me off, I guess, but I really need to cool it and not be so tetchy. I have a feeling Bryson visited Crater's of the Moon National Monument and called it a day.

You are so right about I-80 running on the flattest parts of Nebraska and a few other states as well. I think in the case of Wyoming and Idaho, they pick the most desolate, windiest, flattest parts of those two states at least. Wyoming has some of the most gorgeous mountains in the U.S., but you wouldn't know it. I guess it keeps too many people from moving in--ha.

I have read about the Sand Hills of Nebraska, though I don't believe I've visited them. I need to make a good trip through your area again. Are you anywhere near Broken Bow? It was my dad's last Nebraska home before he moved to Idaho as a child. I love the name of that town.

Yes, do visit here in Idaho if you have the chance. Diane

Oh goodness, Diane - you know I didn't notice any high horse at all from you, but maybe that's because you're always so kind anyway. We all in these "fly-over states" have a little soft and touchy spot from folks who may not appreciate the natural beauties of our regions, or conversely appreciate how much work we spend to grow our gardens for some deliberate beauty. I do think Wyoming is lovely in many spots - we drove up to Yellowstone last summer and the road through the canyons about an hour or two south of the Park was drop-dead gorgeous, and we had nearly the whole highway to ourselves except for the deer and pronghorns.

Broken Bow is about 2.5 hours west of us, and definitely on the edges of the Sand Hill regions. You'd drive through the Sandhills to reach it from the north or west, and be warned that these are roads less traveled so have plenty of gas. It's also near prime crane fly-over routes this time of year, so worth a visit if you wish. You're heartily welcome to stop by here in Lincoln if the spirit moves, preferably during rose growing season so someone else would actually enjoy looking at the roses beyond "nice flowers". I'll keep you in mind if we ever get out to Idaho too.

Cynthia