Here is someone who called Kohler, Delta, Moen, American Standard, and Price Pfister

I've heard this repeated so many times, from so many sources, that I
decided to do a little calling around. I called and spoke with reps
from Kohler, Delta, Moen, American Standard, and Price Pfister. They
all flat out denied this claim. They say there is no difference in
faucets that go to different retailers. They're all the same.

One of my clients bought all of her plumbing fixtures online and gave them to the GC for the plumber to install. The plumber was unable to install them because they were not approved for use in our state and the hand held shower fittings were the retrofit type and not suitable for new construction. If you plan to buy your own fixtures, submit the specifications to the GC so he can get them reviewed and accepted by the plumbing sub before they are bought. It can be difficult to get refunds from online suppliers.

If the GC and plumber are willing to let owners supply the plumbing fixtures, they might as well let the owners use the wholesale price from their supplier. It is much better to sit down with an experienced plumbing salesperson and look at the options in all of the major catalogs and know they will arrive in time with all the necessary parts with no plastic parts.

On major projects, if I haven't already selected the plumbing fixates and the owner want to select them, I often sit with the owner and the supplier and help select well made fixtures that are compatible with the design of the bathroom. It is important that they be well made because the owner would have to enforce the manufacturer's warranty in case of a deficiency. The sales person has always totaled the cost of each fixture on the computer and given the owner a print out. Its usually take an hour or more but no additional time needs to be spent on that important design issue.

If the plumbing supplier won't give you the discounted prices, bring a rep from the GC or plumbing sub to the meeting or use another supplier. I don't understand why people insist on doing everything themselves using the internet. Plumbing fixtures should last far longer than any purchase you will ever make.

As for model numbers being the same at wholesalers, big box stores and online suppliers, in general you should not be buying those fixtures since you will be paying for removing and reinstalling any defective ones. I have lived long enough to see many things fail. In my experience the lifespan of typical Kohler chromed plastic faucets is about 10 years which might be enough since few people stay in a house that long even if it was intended to be their "forever" house.

Penny-pinchers: you supply the fixture, it's missing a special whatzit, are you happy paying for the plumbers time to make the second trip? At that rate, your savings is gone, perhaps worse. On big jobs some parts are always missing or incompatible. Fixtures from EU are notorious. One time a missing Italian elbow (in weathered pewter) delayed a completion by 4 weeks (owner-supplied tub faucets). They didn't mind, because for the privilege of supplying all the fixtures and cabinets they were willing to make it a pure T&M job.

Casey

Nightowl, I'm not saying the reasoning is right or wrong it is more or less the typical distribution model.

I had a drop in sink that had a defective powder coating on my last build. The replacement is easy for some but not for others. If I provided this bowl this is how is shakes out.

1) Prove to provider/manufacturer its defective
2) Procure the new part
3) Disconnect water supplies and waste
4) Break bowl seal
5) Remove faucet
6) Reverse order

Personally I'd never recommend the average homeowner supply their own tubs, showers and toilets unless they have decent plumbing knowledge. Faucets are a different story.

At the end of the day this is the value the plumbing supply house and plumber brings to the table under the typical distribution model. It will be up the owner to have their selections itemized and validate pricing. I already did this myself and the savings if I went online was negligible.

1) Brick and mortar location has everything for you to visualize in real life proportions vs browsing pictures
2) The collections are usually presented together so you can see a cohesive design
3) Usually there is a designer on staff to help you with selections
4) All components are procured and delivered to the site
5) All labor is included for any defective product
6) Any missing parts or defective components at time of install are covered with a subsequent trip

Russ,

My suggestion is to simply talk with the plumber and/or GC and find out which mfg'ers offer the most competitive pricing structure and ask what their typical discount is (they'll build in their fee). The plumbing supply house should be able to supply you the LIST price so you can do some quick math when you're making your selections.

Also I'm not sure why there is a debate as to whether faucets at a supply house are superior to those sold online or at big box stores. Its very simple, check the model number. I will tell you that many manufacturers will have exclusive models from the same collections sold at big box stores and the BOM is modified to make the price point. So the answer is sometimes, check the model number. The model is what identities the product with certification agencies so you can't have different BOMs under one model.

If you buy from discount outlets be aware of several ways they mislead unwary homeowners.

You want as much brass as possible but it is now possible to make very hard plastic parts that can have a decorative metallic finish and it can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference. Manufacturers also make parts of non-brass metals and that is rarely revealed in their specs (manufacturers have chosen to limit specs to dimensions).

So, you must assume the worst. If the spec sheet says nothing about the body of the fixture, assume it is not brass. If the spec sheet refers to "metal" assume it is not brass. If the pop up drain is specified as plastic assume the rest of the fixture is not brass. You can also assume a store brand like Home Depot's Glacier Bay is not of sufficient quality for use in your home. I would also be very cautious of all Kohler products. And if a fixture from a nationally know manufacturer is made only for a certain box store chain don't buy it.

I don't know if these inexpensive fixtures are also sold in plumbing supply houses because I have never asked and the sales people know better than to suggest them to anyone. Since most fixtures must be ordered, I assume you could order the low quality stuff but I don't know why anyone would do that.

As an example, the bath lavatory faucets I often specify in traditional style homes is the Rohl A1408LMPN-2. It is all brass and the fittings are like nothing I have ever seen before. I have a set in nickel with white handles in my home.

It is available at Ferguson's (the largest plumbing wholesaler in the US), Home Depot and many online stores for the following prices:

Amazon $357

Home Depot $357

efaucets.com $371

faucets.com $371

elegantdesigns.com $396

Ferguson $412

eBay $469

Manufacturer's list price $472

The lowest price is 13% below Ferguson's. A plumber could buy it at Ferguson's for about $350 (that's what I paid for it) and might mark it up 18% to $412 for a GC or homeowner so when shopping at Ferguson's, the published online or showroom price is what you will pay unless the plumber is willing to let you subtract his 15% discount.

I should mention that I bought the Rohl set to replace a similar style Kohler faucet set that failed and could not be repaired after about 8 years. To me that makes a well made faucet set worth twice as much as a poorly made set.

Here's the part that's confusing to me as a consumer. I understand that everyone who provides a product or service needs to make a profit, and I want to honor their contribution with an appropriate payment. But why is part of the profit that the GC and/or plumber make "hidden" in the transaction of the material between them and the plumbing supply house? That's what doesn't make sense. If the product just had one price, and the person providing the service (the plumber and/or GC) charged for their labor/service/expertise including profit, it would make more sense. What am I missing?

And as I asked too, why should the profit to the plumber be more for the $1000 Rohl sink faucet vs the $500 Delta faucet? Did the plumber actually spend an additional 30 minutes putting int he Rohl? I doubt it.

Because the discount is more on the Rohl sink.

Exactly cpartist. I just last night I finished spreadsheeting our recent kitchen reno costs. Our 2 sinks, 3 faucets, 2 disposals, 2 airswitches retail plus tax would have been approximately $9300. We paid $4800 delivered. That would be one heck of an insurance policy.

This is a good example of what is so exasperating about the current status of the industry, from the consumers p.o.v. of course.

There are a hundred ways to massage the numbers. That's why I found it helpful to just focus on the end result.

We need a Costco of home builders. Not cheap, but reliable value. But the whole industry is too fragmented.

Yes, the industry needs to change with the times and I found they are doing that some. People are demanding transparency with the numbers. And accountability.

The risk of damage to a $1000 faucet is more than to a $100 faucet. The risk factor is automatically built into the markup % model. If the plumber scrapes a faucet with a big old gouge right there in a very visible spot, you'd expect a new faucet. Thus why a more expensive faucet has more expensive markup associated with it.

It is the same with any material that is supplied to a job site. More expensive carries more risk. You cannot expect to be charged the same install rate for an antique $12000 chandelier as you would a $120 HD one

I don't want to buy fixtures online or a box store. I'm fine with a supply house. I understand the added value of a supply house and possible better quality and how well they serve plumbers. I don't want to be the middle man buying parts.

I simply want to shop supply houses. We are funding this build with OUR money so we watch the budget.

Yes, they showed me "LIST" price. "List" for a 1-piece toilet was over $1200. (Kohler Saile in Biscuit). Retail price is $912 at box stores. They are all the same. The supply house wouldn't tell me my plumber's price. I don't like that.

So I looked on Kohler's website and the "Persuade 2-piece in Biscuit" lists for $609, retails for $457. Very similar toilet (needs a seat) times 4, that saves a lot of money we can spend elsewhere. I hate this hidden pricing junk.

Tell me the price, I'll compare to the other supply house (exact part to part) and the lower bid wins.

I was able to save $3500 getting quotes for garage doors. I should be able to do the same for this hardware.

We have an appointment with supply house #2 next week. I understand and appreciate the value of a supply consultant. Maybe they will be more open about pricing.

--Russ

They don't give you the price as they have different discount structures for different plumbers. If plumber one does $500K in business a year vs another guys does $100K the former is likely setup with a different discount/program. The supply house is being respectful to the plumber.

Interesting. I guess I don't like business that offer different prices depending on how much business you send them. We wouldn't accept that in the grocery store. "You spend a lot more than the person behind you so we'll discount your order an extra 5%". Yea, I know it happens and I know why, I just don't like it.

--Russ

I understand about discounts for repeat buyers. I give a discount for repeat collectors of my work. However all collectors get the exact same discount, whether they've only bought one other drawing from me. or they bought 10.

And yes, I can understand the risk on a $1000 faucet vs a $100 faucet, but I also can't see the price being 10 x for their own insurance purposes. In the majority of cases the plumber is not going to nick the faucet or screw it up, so basically he's pocketing a lot more money just to put in a more expensive faucet.

Perhaps there are ways for plumbing supply houses to be respectful of both the plumbers and the people who ultimately pay them. Like Russ, the reticence to reveal accurate pricing made me feel like both the plumbers and the supply stores saw me as an open wallet.

Clear communication is rarely a bad thing. Some of the responsibility for that is on the tradespeople and their suppliers. It shouldn't all be on those of us trying to build a home within a budget. Clear information about all the different pricing strategies makes it easier for me to give plumbers and plumbing stores my money. It makes it easy for me to tell people I had a good experience with them.

As a side observation, courtesy way too many years spent in universities, it looks to me as if many of the cultural practices of plumbers and plumbing supply stores come straight out of patriarchal social organization. We are the Big Daddies. We will take care of you. Trust us. Behind that message there is often a genuine impulse to help. There can be huge reservoirs of expertise. There is also lots of room for protecting power and one of our favorite expressions of it, money. That leaves plenty of potential for conflict with information economy inclined homeowners who have different preferred ways of doing things. It's all about culture change.

What is missing from this discussion is recognition of the agreed upon method of compensating contractors that was stipulated in the contract. This is especially critical when talking about selecting materials that had not been specified at the time the contract was signed.

I suspect many of you signed a standard contractor-written construction contract that included a profit and overhead markup on materials selected after signing the contract (i.e. Allowance items). The time to negotiate a clause allowing you to pay the the subcontractor's wholesale price with no markup or, alternatively, being allowed to supply the materials yourself if the prices if the sub's prices were too high, was BEFORE signing the contract.

I write the contracts for my projects so I frequently use these kinds of clauses and contractor's don't seem to mind as long as a fair method of compensation is negotiated. I should add that this doesn't save a lot of money but it makes the Allowance buy-out process easier so all parties benefit.

I think folks have a hard time grasping the concept of wholesale vs retail. The wholesaler (plumbing supply house) has retail accounts (plumbers). Plumbers get different pricing from different wholesalers to offer different prices (retail price).

This concept exists in almost every industry.

I wouldn't expect the grocery store's distributor to give me the price of the product.

I wouldn't expect Iseli Nursery to give me the price as its different to various garden centers as they all have different OH&P models.

Its the same for the plumbers. They are the retailer if you will.

I doubt there is any evil going on here as there is too much pricing transparency out there.

I absolutely signed a contract that has the plumber buying materials and I do understand they are responsible. However, it doesn't mean I have to like it, especially when I see something like a Franke sink for $500 less online than the price I was quoted. Granted the price I was quoted includes the markup from the plumber and builder, but still, 1/3 more in price?

Can't you ask to provide it then? Ask them why its so much more and send link to price if its the same model. If your plumber and builder can't respect that than something's up. That is too much of a deviation.

I'm assuming you have an allowance so if you provide, you should come in lower on your allowance.

Our builder is great. Our deal is price +, however he doesn't seem to remember that. If he (or we the owners) finds something cheaper, he's glad to use it provided the quality is adequate and someone will back it up (warranty & service). We don't have a builder warranty specified, however he built my in-laws house 20 years ago and he still comes back to fix things free of charge. He's done $ thousands worth of planning and hasn't charged us a cent. First builder would invoice us for every paperclip.

Our first builder would only let us use his vendors. Some were pricey. Our current builder doesn't care if we buy tile at H.D. or the tile store showroom as long as it's not junk. Same with plumbing parts. He even tells us what vendors give him a kick back. He's too honest actually.

We chose a small builder so that we would receive lots of attention rather than build a McHouse from one of those giant builders. We wanted control and customization. So, should that mean we don't get the discount the megabuilder gets? How do I shop suppliers when they hide the price? Maybe I should be shopping plumbers.

I could go buy all my stuff online or a box store and dump a pallet of parts on the plumber and say "install it". I have all the specs. I would much prefer to buy from a supply house. I do believe most of their products will be superior to retail boxed products. At least faucets and drains. He could say no and I could tell my builder "Find someone who will." This is MY house and I'm paying the bills. On the other hand, the builder has a relationship with the plumber and can call on him any time to come fix problems. That's worth a premium also.

We just wish it was easier to see pricing. As stated above, when we got home and saw the retail price of the toilet, we changed the type to less expensive one (times 4).

We also spec'd accessories, like TP holder and towel racks. Have no idea the cost. I have a feeling we should probably buy those on Amazon. However I'd prefer buy locally if I knew the price wasn't gouging me.

--Russ

I'd guess most on this forum have a pretty good grasp of wholesale versus retail. The issue is that we're advised time and time again to have a very specific understanding of allowances before signing a contract to know whether the allowance amount is reasonable. To do that, we need to know real pricing. Semantics don't matter, just disclose the actual costs of the items so the consumer make wise choices, either in contract language or product selection.

"I think folks have a hard time grasping the concept of wholesale vs
retail. The wholesaler (plumbing supply house) has retail accounts
(plumbers). Plumbers get different pricing from different wholesalers
to offer different prices (retail price)."

No. I understand that just fine. (kindly remove the patting hand from my head.) What I do not agree with (and will never do) is being contractually forced to purchase a product from a plumber (who is not a retailer) when it is often readily available for less from real retailers. (or electrician, or landscaper...)

Here is one scenario. Builder makes a bid and you accept it because it is in a mid-range and you like his product. What you do not know is he low balls his plumbers, who then gouge you with mark ups and you must acquiesce because you are contractually bound to do so.

Additionally, if you are concerned about your community and taxes, you should not support the practice because, in most states, mark up is not taxed.

This issue is controlled more by construction contract conventions than by suppliers. Suppliers serve the needs of their customers who are bound by their contracts.

Plumbing contractors normally submit Lump Sum bids to General Contractors consisting of labor and material estimates plus a % of those costs for Overhead & Profit. That OH&P multiple is based on the accounting records of previous projects without separating labor from materials. In Lump Sum sub-contractor contracts these calculations are not normally revealed to anyone even the General Contractor. This has been the norm for hundreds of years. Other kinds of contracts were developed in the 70's but they have not been widely adopted by homebuilders.

A complication arises in a lump Sum contract when some materials are not specified in the design documents making it impossible for the subs to estimate their costs, add their OH&P and include the total in their Bid to the GC. These materials must become part of an Allowance which is essentially a small Cost of the Work contract within a Lump Sum contract, where the GC charges the Owner the actual cost of the materials plus a markup for his OH&P just as he would have done if the fixtures had been specified in the original design documents.

Allowances are pretty complicated but a further complication arises if the sub's contract with the GC doesn't compensate him for the Allowance materials using the same Cost of the Work Plus a Fee method. In that case, the sub might provide a Lum Sum price for the materials without revealing how that amount was determined. Even if the sub's contract uses the Cost of the Work Plus a Fee method, the Fee multiple might be high or unknown to the owner or even the GC.

This situation becomes further complicated if the Owner objects to a sub-contractor adding ANY Fee markup to the actual cost of the Allowance items and demands that the sub only be reimbursed for the actual cost of the materials as in a Time & Materials contract which, of course, would deprive the sub of the OH&P he would have received if the materials had been specified in the original design documents.

A reasonable settlement would be to agree that no additional Fee markup would be charged if the costs exceeded the Allowance amount.

To drop the Fee markup, a sub-contractor would need to revise his original Lump Sum bid by separating the cost of Labor from the cost of the Materials and increasing the OH&P multiple to produce the same compensation amount when applied to the Labor cost alone. This can be done when negotiating the original contract with the GC but I don't know how it could possibly be done later.

You want to compare costs of your selections? Start with the list price from the manufacturer. That's easily found. Retail costs are usually 10-15% below that, and wholesale 30-40% off of that. Some manufacturers, like Kohler are UMRP and only sell though authorized resellers that pledge to not sell below a certain price. That keeps the retail field level for everyone. There are a lot of companies trying to blur the lines between wholesale and retail, so there is no exact multiplier that you can be sure works in every situation though.

But it's pretty easy to see that a list 2K toilet is gonna be a LOT more than a list $700 toilet.

Nightowl, please take no offense. My comments aren't directed at any one in particular.

Not all builders and plumbers are created equal. Many builders that I know of have built long term relationships with their subs and don't low ball them.

My point is that there is plenty transparency so anyone should be able to set a value on whether they want to seek and supply their own products.

Sounds like you've had negative experiences in the past, sorry to hear that.

nightowl

Here is someone who called Kohler, Delta, Moen, American Standard, and Price Pfister

I've heard this repeated so many times, from so many sources, that I decided to do a little calling around. I called and spoke with reps from Kohler, Delta, Moen, American Standard, and Price Pfister. They all flat out denied this claim. They say there is no difference in faucets that go to different retailers. They're all the same.

Oh sweet jesus. Proof of nothing.

Like Bookmark 18 hours ago

I take no offense. And, I have not had a bad experience. I did avoid one a few years ago and it cost a bit to get out when we realized what was happening, but much less than it would have if we had stayed the course and it was a great lesson.

If enough people refuse to play the game and get the word out to others that they don't have to play it that way either, the game will eventually change.

You don't have to change the game; just write the contract the way you want it before putting it out for bids. If you don't know how to write a good contract hire someone who does.

When an Owner or an Owner's agent (project manager, architect, etc) actively participates in the management of a project, the following specification section should protect the Owner from unreasonably high buyout prices or contractor sweetheart deals for allowances items.

This section, with allowances described and dollar amounts inserted, would be included in the specifications that would be a part of the Bid Package sent to qualified bidders along with a copy of the proposed contract form. Contractor compensation for Allowance items would be described in the compensation section of the contract and could be a fixed % markup, possibly limited in some way, or no markup.

If the Owner will not have professional project representation, the Procedures part of this section would need to be revised. I've never done that because I don't work on projects where I don't provide that service to the owner but it should be part of the specification in the Bid Package where you have some measure of control.

SECTION
01020 - ALLOWANCES

A. GENERAL:

Selected materials and
equipment, excluding their installation, are shown and specified in the
Contract Documents by allowances. Allowances are lump sum amounts established
in lieu of actual specifications in order to defer selection of materials and
equipment to a later date when additional information is available for
evaluation. The Contractor shall include in his proposal the cash allowance
amounts listed below to cover the full cost of the materials described.

B. PROCEDURES

1. At the earliest feasible
date after Contract award, the Contractor shall advise the Owner of the dates
when the final selection and purchase of each product or system described by an
allowance must be completed in order to avoid delay in performance of the Work.

2. The Owner may take one of
the following actions regarding an allowance:

a) Issue to the Contractor a Request for
Change Proposal (Bulletin) describing the actual materials to be supplied or
otherwise modifying the system. After review of the Contractor’s subsequent
Change Proposal, the Owner may issue a Change Order appropriately modifying the
Contract Sum.

b) Supply the materials to the Contractor and
issue a Change Order reducing the Contract Sum by the full amount of the
allowance.

3. No money from allowances
shall be expended without written authorization of the Owner and the Owner
reserves the right to authorize expenditures in whole or in part.

4. The Owner reserves the
right to select the firms from which purchases are to be made. Any unexpended
funds shall be returned to the Owner without any deduction of any kind.

C. SCHEDULE OF ALLOWANCES:

1. Allowance No. 1: Lighting
Fixtures: For the purchase only of
recessed and decorative lighting fixtures where shown on the drawings and specified under Electrical Section allow
....................... $ XXXX.00

(The cost of installing these
fixtures is to be included in the base bid sum)

2. Allowance No. 2: Plumbing
fittings: For the purchase only of plumbing fittings (3 lav. faucets, 1 shower
mixer, 1 shower head, 1 tub spout, control handle & faucets) where shown on the drawings and specified under Plumbing Section
allow........$XXXX.00

(The cost of installing these
fixtures is to be included in the base bid sum)

END OF SECTION

I don't mean to pile on here. I worked for Ferguson many years ago and even back then the same part number was the same part. While someone may have upteen billion years of experience in building, I have quite a few years in accounting and I can tell you the auditor's head would explode if he learned that one part number had two different inventory items with different costs. The idea is wholly ridiculous. We would have destroyed so many boxes and charged so much for additional testing every year, that even the village idiot would use different part numbers. While I will happily admit that some company could be that stupid, I think it far more likely that yours was a defective or mislabeled part.

As most know, my father was a plumber and he would happily tell customers the pricing. Traditionally trade discounts came after the pricing, so a plumber could show you pricing without showing you volume discounts. However, manufacturers have made that hard now, so it doesn't happen that way as often.

The supply house should never provide a customer's pricing information to a third party. How would you like it if the neighbor called up the supply house and learned what you paid for your stuff? In the end, you are just someone asking about someone else's transaction. Your plumber should be willing to give you the information you need to make a good decision, if not, then you made a bad decision on your plumber.

I was happy that our last contractor and his subs were all very straight shooters. We asked them to separate installation cost from purchase of the fixtures, which they were happy to do. We made it very clear that our intent was not for them to make less money; I did not question the installation costs they used in calculating their bid. We took our list of plumbing fixtures to the plumber's preferred supply house and had them bid it, we also did our own shopping for the identical items. Buying from several different sources both online and local as well as scoring some nice pieces second hand -- eg a $1200 KWC kitchen faucet for free along with second hand cabinets we bought) we saved about $2000 vs the one-stop-shop. We knew we were on the hook for making sure there were no delays due to anything late or missing, and also that our warranty recourse was with the retailer, not the plumber. This worked very well for us, and everyone involved seemed to be happy (except for the local plumbing supply).

On missing parts-- lots of small parts are subject to a "five finger discount" at the big box stores; people seem to feel free to take whatever pars they like out of the boxes. I've even had employees open a box to give me some missing piece. Never, ever take a plumbing or electrical fixture that is not in a sealed box-- you will almost certainly be coming back to buy the missing pieces.

For many years my family owned an HVAC / plumbing wholesale house. In the 'olden days' there wasn't a direct distribution network like there is today. We had $$ of inventory on the shelves - to order from Kohler, etc, there were minimum $ amounts. So our customers (trades people) purchased from us - and we had a relationship.

However that's all gone. Not only that - there are so many makes / styles of faucets / tubs / sinks / toilets that the wholesaler doesn't stock - so it's just as convenient to buy on line and get them direct shipped. Also you may save sales tax.

Many of these wholesale houses are not retail customer oriented. They work off of bill of materials - bidding and gathering orders. For retail customers to be calling, asking prices is not what they want to do. If you want prices - Google it.

If the plumber is supplying the material, I don't think a 10-15% mark-up is too much for his time to procure the merchandise. Time is money.

I can tell you that the same model faucet whether from a wholesaler or big box store - they are the same. Many retailers request their own (or a modified) part number (SKU) thus a difference in part numbers.

We may still bring some of our own parts to the plumber. eg: Moen Pot Filler was $1,000. We can find a cheaper filler online for $250. Different brand, but close enough in appearance. For as often as it gets used, I'm not worried about quality so much.

Part # to part # should be the same exact. However, I understand some mfgs modify part numbers slightly. eg: 1234-abc vs 1234-abc1, where the latter might be packaged for box stores.

In my business (IT), customers bring their own stuff. I'll install it or supply my own. I'd rather not supply my own and have to get in the middle of warranty stuff. If it breaks, call the guy you bought it from. I'd be glad to come back and charge labor to re-install it. Some things, I will supply my own to avoid them using junk that will fail. However I don't mark it up and buy it cheaper than they can.

--Russ

I would be very cautious about having a pot filler much less buying a cheap version. IMO it is entirely unnecessary outside of a restaurant kitchen and if it starts to leak your flooring could be ruined; a poor risk reward scenario IMO. You'll be carrying the full pot to the sink to empty and wash it anyway.

^^^ THIS!!!! You save the easy part (bringing pot of COLD WATER ONLY) over to the cooktop. You STILL have to take the loaded pot that is boiling and now full of pasta, over to the sink to drain it. I never understood the pot filler. And I am 100% sure that I will accidentally turn on the pot filler and spew water all over countertop creation.

My favorite part of this entire debate is that every contractor goes to Menards, Home Depot, Lowes, or any other local hardware store. I love it when a contractor tells me that x stores sells cheap junk and the next day I see his van in the parking lot of the store. Maybe he is only there to grab something quick that is doesn't matter where you buy it or maybe he is taking your money and buying the something cheap so he can profit more. You don't know and it is almost impossible to know unless you have them produce receipts which I have never tried as I can only imagine the issues that would create. The point is if you know what you want buy it and have it installed. If you are unsure about it ask the contractor if it is compatible for what you are doing.

I want a pot filler in my house so I am cheating. I am installing an island and it will have a prep sink and range top in it. The faucet for the prep sink will be place in such a manner that it can reach the range top as well as the sink. One faucet, two purposes and I have to worry about it leaking anywhere as it will just leak into the sink. Also as the sink will be within a ft of the range top I don't have to carry boiling water across the kitchen which is also safer.

May I ask why?

My other half crushed me when I suggested the sink should go to the exterior wall with a window above it. She told me when she is going to do dishes or prep they want to interact with others and watch TV (from the island). Although I don't agree, she further stated a prep area and clean area facing a wall is like being put in a corner for a timeout, lol I have other battles to fight than that one. Rest assured a larger island and larger sink where spec'ed.

I have two sinks planned in my kitchen. The main one and a square sink for prep. Next to it will be the cutting and chopping station with a flush mounted cutting board that I have designed that can be easily removed and the cabinet that it is below it will have a trash bin in it and the counter top will have a hole with a removable plug so when I chopping up stuff I can sweep the trash into the trash. Next to that will be the 48" range top so I can move it along to the appropriate pot. Directly behind me will be the fridge and next to it will be the main sink under the window and the main dishwasher. I am putting in two because I have a large family and want two instead of doing a lot of hand washing. The other half of the long side of the island will be for baking, making bread, and rolling out pasta and other pastries. There will be some seating across from all this but the island itself is the mainly for working. I hate working under cupboards and my mixer doesn't fit properly especially with some of the attachments in my current kitchen. The island is 6 x 12 at the moment. I haven't decided if that will be the final dimensions but it is going to be close. It may narrow up so I can reach across it. If I didn't live in ND the exterior wall of my kitchen would have an exterior kitchen attached to it and I would share the plumbing so I could have a working sink outside unfortunately 30 below weather makes that a very bad idea. I guess from my experience a work zone like this minimizes the steps I need to take to get something and maximizes the space I am working in with out closing me off from the rest of the party as I will always be facing the living room and formal dining room. If guests want to help there is plenty of room for them as the walkways in the kitchen are wide as well.

Oh and the fan that I have my eye on is an 1100 cfm commercial fan which should just about suck anything out of the house that I need including the unwelcome guest or two :)

By the time you allow for the proper safety zones, and work zones, an island with a cooking zone and sink needs to be close to 48"x 144". Not many kitchens can support that size. Island venting is the most expensive and least effective possible.

Also, the hierarchy of activities in a kitchen dictate that an island should be designed for food prep (70% of kitchen activity) , not cooking (10% of kitchen activity).

Not saying that an island cooking station can't be well designed. Just that it's usually based on the Emeril Fallacy rather than good design principles or budget considerations.

I am designing the kitchen to accommodate a 6 x 12 (72 x 144) island which is more then enough space. I have 4 ft of stove, 4 ft of undedicated prep, 1.5 ft of sink, and 2.5 ft of dedicate prep where the cutting board. When you are sitting there stirring a pot for a half hour staring at a wall gets boring being able to socialize and interact is a whole lot better. I am using a down draft exhaust that rises up out of the counter. If you buy the cheap versions yes ventilation is an issue if you buy the good ones it works perfectly especially when you upgrade to the 1200 cfm fan which in my house perfectly sealed it would take less then a half hour to create a perfect vacuum so I am not worried about ventilation. Every one has priorities and my is the kitchen so the majority of the budget is in the kitchen the rest of the house will be paired down accordingly. The kitchen itself is 16 ft wide by 20 ft long so their is space galore in it. I have seen plenty of bad designs so I understand what you are saying but functionally this kitchen is designed perfectly for the work flow I use in the kitchen.

Down draft exhaust is just about useless. If you don't believe me, I suggest you post in the appliance forum and see what the experts there have to say. It doesn't matter how expensive they are.

Better investigate downdraft a lot more. They aren't designed to work with ranges at all, nor large sized pro style range tops. Anything that provides enough air flow to approach adequacy will pull flames, or pull it out entirely. Physics.

72" is too deep for access and cleaning. Ergonomics.

48" range + 12"&15" emergency landing space adjacent to range = 75"

Add 36" minimum prep space= 111"

Add 24" sink base for a 21" prep sink=135"

Add 12" minimum for other side of sink landing space=147"

And that only has a minimum 12" of landing space to one side of a mongo 48" range. I'd personally want 24" in order to both be safer and more proportionate.

So now you are up to 159" With no counter overhangs. Add in the 1 1/2'' standards and you're up to 162". 18" shy. Without accounting for any aisle width (48") or seating overhangs if you want one on one end (15").

Mathematics. Physics. Ergonomics. Can't be denied.

A 1,200 CFM downdraft blower cannot be used above 400 CFM without lowering the heat output of the range. Fan speeds higher than 400 CFM would be ineffective unless you opened a window or door or provided an automatic make-up air supply as required by most building codes including the IRC.

re "Not that many things need to be rinsed before cooking..."

other than rice/noodles from a box and meat and frozen stuff, I can't think of much that doesn't require washing prior to cooking. Perhaps you don't eat fresh produce.

DG - do you have a sketch of your plan?

Who are you going to return it to or expect to service it? i don’t do contract work anymore but if you want to buy labor, fine i will quote you labor on a by the hour basis. If you are asking me to bid to repair or install i will do that. Used to be a supply house, IF they would quote a non contractor, gave msrp. i wouldn’t work for msrp plus labor. i would much rather park the truck and let the wife yell at me all day. the very first rule of business should always be ”it is easier to go broke at home”. if you won’t pay 250% of my cost, you don’t want the one on my truck or that i picked up. Its as simple as I’m going to warranty it and I’m going to still be in business next year to warranty it.