If lettuce is the crop, 1 idea is inter-plantings. Put some of your plantings in areas that will later be sown with warm-soil crops like peppers, squash, eggplant, tomatoes etc...

Plan the bed for those warm weather crops and put the lettuce in the empty spaces. As tomatoes grow tall, for example, they will help shade the lettuce. By the time the tomatoes cause total shade, the lettuce will be ready to bolt. Do similar inter-plantings with longer season row crops like beets, carrots etc... By the time those crops are getting bushy, it's time to harvest the lettuce.

One more off the top of my head... plant radishes before your later lettuce. Radish is a fast grower/early harvested crop. After the radish is done... 25 - 35 days, put in your later lettuce.

Short answer - yes. The idealised image of a veggie garden where the whole space is full and all the plants are perfect is just that - idealised. And as you say if that were the case you'd have gluts. There is always something going in, something just getting going, something growing away, something almost ready and something finished. At least there should be. The longer your growing season the more this is true. I sow lettuce at two to three week intervals in blocks. There has to be an empty area waiting for each block. The same applies to all succession plantings. Sometimes the empty area has just had something else harvested but earlier in the season it just has to be empty and waiting.

Well, succession planting with crop rotation is one thing- that's like growing peas in the spring, then planting tomatoes where the peas were for the summer.

What you seem to be asking is about staggering the plantings, which is different kind of succession planting. And yes, you would need to leave the space open for this, otherwise where are you going to plant the latter seeds? It might drive you nuts to see bare spots in the garden, but that is what it is. Maybe if it really bothers you you could try working on amending, weeding, and prepping those areas to keep you occupied till it comes time to plant the seeds?

Or you could try interplanting too, if the space thing is bugging you. That's a whole different kind of planting than crop rotation and staggering.

Thanks for the replies. I am very strict when it comes to crop rotation and it has paid off immensely, so I won't plant lettuce around tomatoes, etc. I should have clarified that; the intent of the title was to ask for help with SS when you adhere to the principles of crop rotation. Based on the answers here, I'll have to live with the empty spaces. I'll keep them papered and mulched until it's time to plant. Thanks so much for responding so quickly!

Maybe I need to learn something, so I have to ask... Why won't you put tomatoes and lettuce together? Unless you are putting your tomatoes where your lettuce was last year, I'm not totally understanding why crop rotation rejects such inter-plantings.

RGreen48, I am quite sure you know way more than I do, but in a nutshell, fruit will follow greens, greens will follow beans, beans will follow roots, and roots will follow fruit. I hope that makes sense.

Ok... well, what we know in comparison to others is always relative.

More important than what you or I know, is doing what you are comfortable with and works for you in your garden.

For example, just for contrast, I also follow a rotation regimen. Although, mine is based upon plant species. I don't have a lot of space, so instead of worrying about the specific needs of fruits, greens, beans etc... I maintain a general soil nutrition and rotate for pests and diseases.

If I want to put greens in a location, and want a little extra nitrogen (which is very mobile in soil anyway) I just add urine shortly before planting. If I do want to capitalize upon any fixed nitrogen, I will do a planting of greens in the fall after the summer legumes.

I suppose if I had more space I could follow a regimen like yours, but honestly, I'm a bit of a simpleton, it would hurt my head lol. Keep it up!

Ha ha ha, RGreen48. You're right.... we work with what we have and that's the fun of it. I'm wanting your zone in the worst way.... convinced if I could just eke out a 7A, I could grow an olive tree or two. *sigh*

That is correct, Beesneeds. Root, fruit, greens, and beans. By fruit, I mean tomatoes, peppers, melons, squash. Any vegetable that produces a "fruit" (no berries or whatever). I grow potatoes in potato "bags" far away from the vegetable garden, over by the pumpkins and I have two separate asparagus beds. All my herbs are grown in massive containers that are used to decorate the decks and patios. My raised beds are 16 inches high so I don't use cover crops. I lay thick layers of newspaper and thick layers of straw on top of the beds in December or whenever everything is done growing and after I've amended the beds for next year's crops. Elliot Coleman promotes crop rotation based on food groups but I found it easier and just as beneficial to focus on soil needs. I don't do companion planting and except for the deer that hang out around here, I have no issues with pests, viruses, bacteria. It's only my sixth year doing it but I really like the simplicity and the effectiveness.

Wendy... while my Italian roots would love to give a fruiting olive a go - Granddad and I go through a lot of olive oil, and my Mom just a short drive away would enjoy a cheaper antipast(o) - it would definitely be pushing the envelope. I haven't put it in, but I've cleared a space for a hardy fig growing a few blocks away. Already made arrangements with the people, just gotta go dig a piece when the time is right. I missed one window due to other plants in the way. I think I can do it just before spring, but I haven't done figs yet.

Ooohhhh.... a fig tree, RGreen. My Spanish roots understand your Italian roots. I was in Spain in October for a month and loved how the Spaniards use those cute little trees everywhere. Let me know how you do with the fig. I guess I could go with the olive trees and bring them in during the winter, but once those things get massive, I don't know what I'd do with them.

for my olive oil, I depend on a friend who has a pizzeria. I get it at $8.75/liter, and it is high quality. I have to buy 12 liters at a time at least, but in fact we go through 20 liters/year (them salads from the garden). In regard to lettuce, that is something that in Zone 6 does not need to be rotated, and I concur that interplanting it, specially with allium but also under young tomato, pepper and eggplant, is the best way to use space and resources. Note that if you do that your watering frequency decreases, due to live mulching. To be even more specific, I prefer cutting chicory for the live mulching, it is more resistant to shade, gives me a fall crop, and its taproot improves the soil.

Most people do crop rotation because garden pests choose and attack plant base on its family and not base on the part that we human eat. But to each his own I guess.

Bunny, that is correct. I don't group based on the human component but rather on what will overwinter in the soil in terms of pests. The way I do it is the way I was taught to do it at the University of Connecticut's Agricultural program.

'fruit will follow greens, greens will follow beans, beans will follow roots, and roots will follow fruit'

I think I would go nuts if I followed that strict of a rotation plan! Most all of my annual raised beds get at least 2 main crops planted each season and sometimes 3. I also stick a row of lettuce, radishes, leeks, carrots, or green onions along the outside frame of the beds containing Peppers or Tomatoes to take advantage of the open space while the main crop plants are still small. I've often planted Potatoes one season and then Tomatoes in the same bed the next with a fall crop of brassicas like Broccoli in between. Seems like I would lose a great deal of production following Mr. Coleman's teachings on crop rotation. I think soil quality and amending well with quality compost does much to alleviate many of the pest and disease issues that crop rotation targets.

Jack, what I am talking about is not Coleman's method. He's a little more involved and tends to teach along the lines of what you're describing. It's what works for each individual gardener. Except for one month in the roots beds, I have no empty spaces. I have a total of 416 square feet (not counting the asparagus beds or the herb gardens) and we manage to get just over 2,000 pounds of produce out every year. I did create four melon patches this year (so I can rotate them) with A frames (to keep fruit off the ground and save me a ton of space) and that will open up more space for peppers which seems to be the big demand in our house. I find this method so incredibly easy and brainless but it may be from years and years of doing it. Anyway, have a great season. I think you guys are still having major problems with weather, floods, rain. Spring will be here soon enough! Thanks for sharing!

Luckily for me the flooding problems have been in the southern and eastern parts of Missouri. We have had our share of rain, but so far no flooding here and the winter has been pretty mild so far with only one minor freezing precipitation event. It seems you get a lot out of your 400+ feet of space. I have just under 800 sq/ft of raised beds but I don't grow many melons or pumpkins so probably don't get as much as you in terms of poundage.

I do try to rotate as much as possible, but with 2 or more crops a season my rotation often comes back around with the same thing in a bed in less than 3 years. For instance I have one bed that has garlic in it now and I will follow that with bush beans in late June and then sneak in my last Broccoli planting in that bed when the beans are finished in early September. Another bed will get 1/2 planted with Broccoli and 1/2 planted with lettuce in late March, followed by bush beans in early June and then Garlic in October. The rotation is there and the planning as to what follows so as not to have multiple nitrogen hogs back to back is there but in a more condensed time frame than your method. I almost always amend with compost between crops unless the next crop is beans or some other nitrogen fixing veggie.

No floods and a World Series. That's a double win for you! Those melons are heavy and I'm sure that is at least a couple of hundred pounds. It all comes down to what you like to eat, right? If parsnips and rutabags aren't your thing, you're not going to grow them and you may have empty "spaces" because there's nothing to fill in the roots bed that you want. Beans are always tripping me up. I can't figure out the difference between snap, peas, and beans and I think it's a language/cultural thing. In English, you have dry beans and green beans and I guess they're two different things although my mom keeps telling me that a green bean is an dry bean that hasn't matured. I don't think that's true and catalogues help me a lot. Peas, for example, can be the pod or the pea in it or both and it makes me cuckoo. I stick to garbanzos and pinto, kidney, red beans which I think is what are referred to as dry beans. Anyway, I'm working on mastering beans. I'm growing Bush Blue Lakes this year which I understand are green beans which are soft and have no real bean inside and it's what you see at Thanksgiving in American homes. Wish me luck. And congrats on the win! I love my Cubbies and my BoSox and anyone who beats the Yankees.

Thanks for the congrats on the Royals Wendy! It was a long time coming. Almost as long as the Redsox fans had to endure. The Cubs look like they are going to have a good chance in the next few years with the team they have put together and I will root for any team that beats St Louis. I'm with you on liking anyone who beats the Yankees. I have hated them since the late 70s when they kept knocking the Royals out of the playoffs year after year. I have grown Blue Lake and it is a good green bean that you should enjoy. I also like Contender and Provider for Bush beans and Rattlesnake is my favorite pole bean. I am also trying a bush bean called Maxibel this year that is a fillet type green bean. You are right that beans are confusing. I try to stay away from the 'Bean, Pea, and Legume' forum here because those people are a little over the top for beans!

This is my first year growing veggies. I'm in Australia so it's near the end is summer. I had this lovely easy idea of rotating crops but just can't get my head around it now it's coming to the time to do it.

For instance, I planted a second round of tomatoes that should fruit in a month or so, and some other tomatoes that are finished and need pulling up.

So do I put my legumes in there and keep my tomatoes? Then I've got different plant families in same bed.

So when a crop rotates, can it be staggered over the season?

newgardener, in this thread, people discussed different concepts of rotation. Were you hoping to understand one of them, or rotation in general?

How is your garden laid out? In beds? In rows?

What is your growing season like? Do you get killing frosts and cold snaps that bring 4' of snow and sub-zero temps?

Rotation includes the attempt and hope of disease prevention. All these aspects and conditions of your garden, along with your gardening style, can affect how you decide to fit rotation into your gardening efforts.

Also, when you say 'staggered over the season'... do you mean succession planting?

It helps many to think of it this way. Crop rotation is per year/growing season and to a separate area, plot, garden or bed. It only works if you plant all of the same crop within the same area and not scattered throughout your garden. So for example, an area that was entirely devoted to tomato plants this season is devoted to beans the following year.

Succession planting is throughout the same growing season and in the same area and can be done with the same or a different crop as weather permits.

Your climate/environment in Oz is unique to us so I can only guess at this but since you did a second planting of tomatoes (succession planting) it sounds like you did them in a different area from the first planting of tomatoes, correct? If so, that complicates any crop rotation. If, like rgreen said, you planted in rows, you can rip out the row of finished tomatoes and plant whatever you want there but it will be succession planting not crop rotation since it is within the same season.

Hope this helps rather than confuses you more.

Dave

In Melbourne in Australia as there isn't any real kind of winter, crop rotation is a good idea, especially if there was signs of disease. But real crop rotation requires a good distance between types of plants and different or sterilized garden tools and is rarely feasible in a small home garden... unless you just don't plant the same stuff year to year. Thats what real crop rotation is that farmers do... not shuffling things over a row. IMHO. But it can't hurt. Of course, it also helps in that you aren't planting things with the same nutritional needs in the same place. But that is easy enough to take into account.

my current garden is quite small at 15 x 20. This year coming up it will be 16 x 22, still fairly small. Ive been doing rows and rotating with decent success however this year I think Im going to do beds. For a smaller space beds are much easier for rotation purposes. Also I mainly rotate to reduce the risk of insect pests and soil borne pathogens rather than for nutrient reasons. In the fall I till under some dead dried out tree leaves. I do a soil test before spring planting for PH, N, P, and K at 4 locations in the garden. Usually I end up adding blood meal every spring but other than that my P, K and PH has always been good

newgardener - I too grow in raised beds exclusively, and have the issue of a somewhat longer growing season which can make crop rotation difficult. Instead of rotating on a bed-by-bed basis, I tend to plant in groups (all cole crops in one section, all squash in another, etc) and then rotate my groups to another area the next time I plant them...it may just get moved to the opposite end of the bed, but I'm not replanting in the same soil they were in last season, if that makes sense. Doing it this way rather than interplanting different types of crops makes it much easier to plan for when I'll have some open ground than tucking things here and there when I pull something out, too.

*edit* as for the legumes, depending on what you're planting - become a fan of pole beans instead of bush types. With limited growing space, I can devote just a 2" strip along the north edge of my beds (south edge, for you? trellised, of course) and get pounds and pounds of beans using almost no valuable real estate.

Hi, newgardener, I'm glad you returned with feedback.

I apologize for my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with the details of Sydney weather. I've seen fly-over images of your Opera House though... very nice! Lol.

The reason climate is a bit important is that while it's not a perfect cleanser, extremely cold weather helps quite a bit in pest and disease management. I believe Sydney is a coastal city, so your climate is probably at least a bit moderate. As I'm sure you know, such conditions may not help kill off pests and diseases, but it's often nice for year-round gardening.

In your case, concerning the style of rotation I use, it helps to consider plants - not by style.(fruiting, root, greens, etc...) - but by plant family. There are of course distinctions within species, but generally speaking, the pests and diseases that affect tomatoes, also affect peppers and eggplants.

Why is this a bit important? Because, as an example, the pests that attack brassicas, and 'over-winter' in the soil, will affect some of the brassica greens (above-ground crops like broccoli and cabbage,) as well as root crops like radishes and turnips.

So, if one of the goals of rotation is disease and pest management, categorizing by growth style is a more difficult proposition in a small garden. It gets more complicated if you use mechanical tilling and a disease has become established where plant and root debris remain behind (it's a practical impossibility to remove every bit of host plant from a soil.)

For most 'infections', 3 years is a common rotation schedule. So as Dave, and others above posted, you would want to rotate your crops so that no plant from the same family is grown in the same bed until at least 3 years has past. is this 'fixed in stone'? Nope, but it's a common guideline. If you can toss in a fallow year, then you are doing good, but again, small spaces makes that more of a challenge.

By giving the soil that 3 year rest from similar host plants, it is less likely that an infection will become firmly established in your soil. Once a disease becomes established, you will not be happy lol.

Good planning can also incorporate plant types (and their general needs,) as well as plant families into a rotation.

For example.. it's common knowledge that legumes (especially when 'inoculated') can do a fairly good job of fixing nitrogen, so as I'm sure you've considered, it makes good sense in the next year, to follow a leguminous crop with a nitrogen-loving green.

And as Dave mentioned, even in a moderate climate, it's year to year. Since I haven't grown in coastal conditions, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it, but with a bit of ingenuity, you can come up with a good rotation.

After a summer crop of beans for example, you can do something along the lines of a fall/winter crop of cool weather brassica greens. Just try not to replant beans in that soil again until 2-3 summers have past.

As far as the succession planting, yep, as was already mentioned, rotation works with a year to year period (with the 3 year interval being a standard,) not really repeat (successive) sowings during that same growing year. ETA: Successive sowings during a growing year is a great use of season, space, and longer (staggered) harvests.

It's rare for most places to have such a moderate climate that there aren't defined seasons for each crop family. If you did live in such a place (Hawaii maybe?) then you could just make an arbitrary day and consider that a year. But, some crops that we consider annuals become perennials under such conditions and there I am, right out of my element, not knowing a blessed thing.

Edit: I just read what Humsi wrote... Looks like he has more experience with a climate similar to yours... what he said!

I've been reading the comments on succession gardening. With limited space (12×32 ft) plus a few raised beds its a challenge to avoid getting tomatoes in the same spot the next year! I've been planting lettuce, , then peas, then tomatoes in virtually the same spot in zone 8 Mississippi for 2 years just adding compost each time. Does that accomplish the goal?

Does that accomplish the goal?

Yes.

Dave

Swety Bear, the critters will lay their eggs and overwinter whether you add compost or not. Find a new spot for the tomatoes, even if you have to grow determinates in pots.

Thanks for the help. It's been rather confusing. I'll add a couple of new raised beds and throw them into the rotation....that should help.

You won't be sorry, Swety Bear. It's an investment in your food supply! Crop rotation is the most important thing a gardener should practice and adhere to. I see massive crops in your future free of BT, Neem, and other things that are easily avoided if we just ROTATE! Cheers!

Thanks Wendy .. I'm originally from Zone 5 Central Illinois, so the whole concept of a long growing season and succession planting is a real challenge!

No, I don't think that for a residential gardener, crop rotation is particularly important. It is very important for large ag, because large scale soil amendation is hard, so certain plant species use up more of one nutrient than another, and it takes a while for that nutrient to gradually re-accumulate. For a home garden, you amend liberally with compost, and all will be well. That amendation is not done with large ag. It is true that IF you have trouble with disease, rotation may be necessary. But if you don't, no need to bother. I haven't rotated my tomatoes for a decade, and all is fine with them.

But rotation IS a bother. If you have tomato trellising, you need to regularly pick that all up and reassemble if you always rotate your tomatoes somewhere else.

Sorry, but it's nonsense that rotation prevents you from ever having to use any insecticides. Insects come from all over the place, and not just out of your bed. Why in the world should one be worried about Neem and BT??

Swety Bear - when I answered yes to your question above I understood you were asking about succession planting, not crop rotation - two different issues. So please clarify which issue you are asking about.

I and many others (see all the previous discussions about it) here agree with Dan that crop rotation is not all that important for the average home gardener. It is primarily a commercial grower issue. Many home gardeners don't do it simply because they don't have the space and their gardens have done just fine for years. Of course if one has the space and time to do it - great. But it certainly isn't vital for any reason.

Further crop rotation is based on disease control, not pest issues. Simply moving a particular crop from one bed to another isn't going to keep pests away. And regular supplements of healthy, active compost can do wonders for disease control.

Dave

Swety Bear, you are most welcome! Regardless of what others may say, crop rotation is critical whether you plant in a square, a block, a mile, an acre. I've been growing my own food for more years than I can remember and have never, ever, ever used a single pesticide on my food crops. However, on my father's memorial garden, BT is King! Those silly tent caterpillars think they can get one over on me as they case the Crimson Maple, but they can't! My property abuts wildlife management so I have deer and coyotes and other things I can't identify and nothing interferes with my food crops. Rotation is where it's at! Trust me on this.... Have a wonderful 2018! In the garden!!

PS - I grew up in Illinois and the one thing you have going for you is crazy winters that kill almost everything and produce beautiful bulb blooms. ;-)

Wendy - please explain to me how crop rotation helps to keep cabbage worms off of brassicas.

Wendy, it's wonderful that you have never ever had to use pesticide on your food crops. But it's not at all clear what crop rotation has to do with it. I use popsicle sticks as plant markers, and I've never had to fumigate my beds! As a result EVERYONE should use popsicle sticks to keep from needing to get their beds fumigated!

Insects simply don't stay in the bed that they were born in.

Jack, the moth lays her eggs on the plant, the eggs turn to larvae and eat everything in sight, and then they burrow into the soil where they over winter during the pupa stage. If you rotate the crop, when the pupa reaches the adult stage, the host plant is gone. I also turn the bed over in the fall to expose whatever pupa may have gotten through and our winters destroy them. In the spring, I use hoops and fine netting fabric that I bought in a local fabric store for next to nothing. The holes are too small to allow moths through so they can't lay their eggs on the host plants. The first year or two you'll have to deal with them in the garden but every year, as you turn over the beds and move the plants, you'll have less and less. Dan, the whole point of crop rotation is to avoid depleting the soil of nutrients AND to disrupt the habitat of critters. But I'll give your popsicle stick idea a try! :-) Have a great season!

https://www.agriculture.com/crops/corn/production/stacking-crop-rotation-controls-pests_137-ar45188

Squash vine borer adults fly. Pepper maggot adults fly. Japanese beetles fly. Carrot rust flies fly. Onion maggot adults fly. Aphids fly. Cabbage worms and loopers fly. Potato beetles fly. Tomato/tobacco hornworm adults fly. Leafminer adults fly. Corn earworm adults fly. Stink bugs fly. Thrips are mobile. Flea beetles are mobile. Leafhoppers are mobile....

Also, a lot of diseases and fungus are airborne as well. And those that aren't are often transmitted by insects, such as aster yellows and bacterial wilt.

Unless you've got a lot of property I am not sure how rotating crops is going to prevent these pests/diseases. On a home garden scale where some people are gardening on approximately 100 square feet (or several 4x8 garden beds) crop rotatation just isn't feasable if preventing pests/disease is the goal.

Rodney

Edit: Wendy, host plants for cabbage worms are never really gone. At least not around my area. There are plenty of wild/invasive brassicas that cabbage worms will feed on.

Not to speak for Wendy, and while I completely agree with the statements above explaining that rotation is first, and foremost, about disease prevention (especially soil-borne disease,) there are a few examples where rotation can be utilized in pest prevention strategies.

Again - this time with the specifics of cabbage 'worms' on brassicas - rotation has absolutely no effect in prevention. However, one pest that does attack brassicas (some types more than others) is flea beetles. If you had a lot of flea beetle damage, AND wish to apply row covers to protect against serious infestations (especially since flea beetles are difficult to control using a product as safe as Bt,) rotating plant varieties that are prone to flea beetle damage to a garden space that didn't have as serious a flea beetle infestation in the prior year, then installing the row cover immediately, can help in pest control in that instance.

Another similar example is with SVB.

However, even though there are such instances when rotation can be used IN CONJUNCTION with other pest control techniques to foil serious infestations, the principle remains intact... rotation is for disease prevention first; nutrient availability and fixation second; and a distant third is the few cases where specific pests over-winter in soil and you're going to use certain other pest control techniques along with rotation. Perhaps a fourth reason for rotation (and some may rate this higher) is in soil friability where a deep-dug crop prepares formally shallow ground because of the digging required for harvest of the first crop. Jerusalem Artichoke (sunchokes) is an example where some people plant it in the first year of 'new ground', and after harvest another crop is planted in the turned soil - of course, because sunchokes are perennials, there's always the issue of not getting all the tubers and watching them come up in the second year with the crop rotated into the space.

Again, let's not lose track of the difference between large farms and small residential gardens. Maybe Wendy has a few hundred acres. I don't know. In a large farm, rotation can minimize pest damage because the pests have a finite range. If they are born in one field, they are unlikely to migrate to another a long ways away. If they are born in one of my garden beds, they will have no trouble migrating to another bed ten yards away. Also, as I said, with regard to nutrient depletion, big farms are different than small residential gardens. Every year, I dig many yards of compost into my garden beds. That simply doesn't happen with large farms. The nutrients in my beds largely get replaced every year. Those in large farms do not. In unamended soil, mineral nutrients dissolve slowly out of the soil, and rotation is a good strategy for management, giving some nutrients a chance to get reestablished by growing plants that don't use as much. The strategies for large agricultural outposts and small residential gardens are just different.

But rgreen is right that the main value of rotation to everyone is mitigation of soil borne diseases. If you have soil borne diseases, then sure, rotate away. If you don't, count your blessings and continue where you are. Be aware that you're certainly not going to prevent development of soil borne diseases by rotating. You're just escaping the ones you've identified.