Bonsai Jade Help

8 years ago

I'm attempting to bonsai one of my jades and just wondered if anyone had any tips/feedback for this beautiful plant (I know the soil is not right :P)

Its been indoors for awhile, putting it outside today :)

Featured Answer

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

8 years ago

Any species of tree or plant that lends itself to becoming believable bonsai material is very unlikely to be too large to be developed as bonsai if it's already in a pot. If the plant had a 6" diameter trunk and was 4 ft tall from the soil line, it would have much more potential to become a spectacular specimen than the palm-sized tree illustrated above, in the OP.

When we're working on our trees, our actions cause reactions. Generally speaking, defoliation or partial defoliation is an excellent tool that can be used to decrease leaf size and shorten internodes; but, there is a price to pay for removing photosynthesizing surface area because that's where the trees food comes from. Every leaf is a miniature food-producing factory that encapsulates the sun's energy in molecules of sugar. The plant stores that energy by building new cells, which is how plants grow. So essentially you limit the plant's growth potential by reducing the amount of food it can make, which means slower growth (shorter internodes - so a more compact tree) and smaller new leaves.

Generally though, defoliation and pruning is used on young developing trees like we see in the OP as a way to control the plant's energy flow. By partially defoliating heavy branches that shouldn't be heavy because of a higher position on the tree, and letting thin branches that SHOULD be heavy grow unencumbered by pruning because of their lower position on the tree, you're able to control which branches thicken and which branches don't.

Too, if the plant was recently partially defoliated and its owner lives in the Northern Hemisphere (NH), it probably wasn't in the plant's best interest; reason being, a plant's defenses are a byproduct of its metabolic rate, which will have been slowed considerably by the loss of foliage.

Also, the leaves that should have been removed are still on the plant. If the plant is in the NH, the growth it puts on now is going to be lanky, unless the plant is under REALLY good lighting. So, it's going to add more lanky growth on top of what is already lanky growth, so the tree will be really stretched out by June when it's time to prune it again, so there goes all your new growth and a start-over in terms of rebuilding branch structure and canopy volume. It would have been better to A) wait until June to do any serious work (because the plant tolerates it better then), and B) leave all the foliage that's close to the trunk and prune back the branch tips where the growth regulator is (primarily) produced. Since all of the apices (growing branch tips) in the OPs original picture are intact, they're still producing auxin, which is inhibiting back-budding.

If the OP doesn't live in the NH and instead lives in the SH, the timing is appropriate, but the method wasn't conducive reaching the desired end.

I guess what I'm saying is, defoliation is a legitimate tool, but it's usually reserved for trees that already have well developed branch structures or trees that have been developed to the point that ramification (forcing growth of more branches and leaves) is the next logical step. Done correctly, leaf pruning increases multiplicative growth (causes more leaves of smaller size and branches with shorter internodes) at the direct cost of reducing growth in longitudinal and lateral axes (slows all extension and thickening of branches). Done incorrectly, it simply reduces growth.

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Comments (42)

rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
I don't have any suggestions, just a question: why so few leaves? Did you take them off, or they fell? Just wondering...

Rina
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
8 years ago
I took them off because they were quite large and i wanted them smaller
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The rot most often starts at the bottom and move up. I believe that the tissue does not brown with age. Take plant out of the pot and inspect the roots. If rotten or dry, cut them off. Healthy trunk will grow new roots. Trunk should be checked for rot; tissue should be light colored without any brown/dark spots or rings. If you suspect rot in branches, check them all by slicing ( - clean the knife/scalpel/blade with alcohol between cuts - ) as you already did until you find healthy tissue. I think that rooting hormone contains some fungicide, but you can dust with cinnamon (I used it on large cuts). I am not convinced that rooting hormone will help growing new roots... Grafting will likely not work...someone here tried but I am not sure if it was real success. See a post by very good grower hanzrobo - click here (there are more posts on same subject). Healthy trunk will grow new leaves and branches. I would not remove any healthy leaves, they actually help plant grow.
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I agree with Steven. The plant shouldn't be allowed to go dry. While under-watering is in most cases less limiting than over-watering, under-watering (allowing the soil to go dry before watering) does create drought stress. Stress is limiting because it forces the plant to grow at or near the limits it's been programmed to tolerate. Water when the soil is nearly but not quite dry. FWIW, I water my portulacarias exactly as I water my other plants, summer and winter, but I do use a very open soil. Al
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rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Not quite sure that was the best thing to do for best growth of plant.

And I don't think it will reduce the size of the leaves.

But I am not expert on these things and especially bonsai...hopefully someone with that knowledge will post.

Rina
lmontestella
8 years ago
I'm going to guess most folks here would suggest getting it in the right soil is THE best & most important thing to do for this plant BEFORE anything else. Otherwise, you're putting the cart before the horse.

SInce you already know that soil isn't good for it, I'd start there first if it were mine.
nomen_nudum
8 years ago
After re-potting it into a new soil you may want to give it some time to adapt to the new soil as well.

Quoted : I took them off because they were quite large and i wanted them smaller

It's not the nature of your jade to have small sized leaves The removed foliage nubs are an area of concern on warmer days with stronger sun light.

Shaping IMO it already has a nice stable upright form for a bonsai and would benefit for the better with more top foliage.

Are you located in the southern hemisphere ?
kaktuskris
8 years ago
I am not a bonsai expert, but it looks a bit large to develop into bonsai. Crosby's Compact Jade has smaller leaves to begin with. Might be better suited for bonsai culture. This is a little one of mine I am working on.

Christopher
rooftopbklyn (zone 7a)
8 years ago
kzzle,

Not sure what you mean by bonsai specifically, can be kind of a loaded word - but I do like the tree like structure you have going, if by bonsai you mean continuing to make it look more like a tree (but not necessarily one you can hold in your hand) I like your direction.

You should probably let it grow for a while before doing much more.

Daniel
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
8 years ago
Wow thanks for that info Al. I'm in the SH so timing was right for pruning but i've done it incorrectly I gather?

I know its rather large for a bonsai but I liked the thickness of the trunk and the way the branches were looking so just wanted to experiment and have some fun!
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
8 years ago
Noooo - bonsai isn't about size, it's about application of techniques that allow you to produce a tree that resembles as closely as possible something you might find in nature. Often, bonsai are measured by the number of hands it takes to move them about, and 8 hands (4 men) would be considered the upper limit for a plant being called bonsai.

Very often, a bonsai practitioner uses a series of trunk chops to add rapid taper to the trunk of their trees. This is a tree I grew in a raised bed as stock for bonsai. The trunk is more than 3" in diameter. I will let it grow w/o pruning until the wounds heal almost completely (2-3 years) while guiding it into whatever shape it 'tells' me it wants to be. At that point, the radical change in taper will have softened and it will be ready for development. You can see I simply chopped of the top with the intent of using a low branch as part of the trunk line. This pic was taken last spring and the tree has grown a LOT since then. It's on it's way.

If you like, we can kick around some strategies that could be employed so you end up with 2 trees that will make more credible (realistic looking) bonsai than the one you have. Keep in mind, please, that any critique of anything you've done or how your tree looks is only meant to be helpful. There is nothing in what I said that has any intention of diminishing you or your tree.

Al
greenclaws UK, Zone 8a
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Fantastic post Al, thanks for taking the time to write that out....for us all, as I'm sure many of us have read it and absorbed useful information from it....I know I have!

Any chance of that updated pic of the tree above...what species is it please?

Gill UK
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
8 years ago
The tree is a Styrax japonica (commonly - Japanese snowbell) It gets beautiful white and very fragrant blooms. Here's how it looked an hour ago:

I promise - there's a bonsai tree in there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You can see the callus tissue starting to roll over the large wounds:

I figured you'd rather see for yourself than take my word there's a tree in that mess, so I took a few minutes to prune it.

The white spots are waterproof wood glue, used to dress the wounds to prevent tissue in the immediate area of the cuts from drying and dying back so the scars are larger than necessary.

The tree is horribly root bound because I lifted it from one of my nursery beds in spring of 13. I potted it in a cut off 5 gallon nursery can and let it recover (from lifting it and drastically reducing roots so it would fit in the can) for 2 years. It was about 7' tall (2.2 m) when I chopped it back to about 4" (10 cm) at the bottom of the angular chop, and then I let it recover all this growing season from the trunk chop, so 3 years w/o repotting - too long). It's not fully dormant yet, but it has a LOT of reserve energy, so I'll work the roots hard, come spring, and repot it in the same pot for 2 more years of development. The plant will REALLY grow and heal fast after the repot because presently root congestion is significantly limiting growth. By spring of '17 or '18, it should be ready for a bonsai pot. Total time from starting the plant as a cutting to when it should be in a pot - 7 years. It has really nice taper and a good root flare, which means it has the potential to become a really nice tree. Hopefully I'll do it justice.

I apologize for getting off track, Kzzle. Even though the tree LOOKs much different than your jade, the principles of design and the methods used to achieve a desired end are widely applicable to all sorts of plant material. One of the great things about your tree is there are no trifurcations ( branch habit like a pitchfork - normal for jade). It looks like the branching is all bifurcated (like a slingshot 'Y'). That's something that usually only happens in jades by design. Did you make a conscious effort to eliminate trifurcations? If you did - it worked out well. Other growers might want to note how much better a bifurcated tree looks than one that's given it's head and allowed to grow as is its wont.

Al
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Kzzle

I have this C. ovata that was extensively pruned (not the best time of the year-I am in Canada, but it was quite damaged at the time with many branches frost-bitten). It was mostly tip-pruning, since that's where the frost-bite was.

First leaves that started to grow were very small, and very close together. After that, I didn't do any further pruning and leaves started to grow bigger and bigger - I just measured the largest ones and they are all around 2.5" (between 6-7cm) long.

You can see the difference in the photo below - 1st photo is about month after pruning and new leaves starting to grow (I left only about 1/2 dozen of leaves on that plant for photosynthesis):

Second photo is from Sept. 17, 2015 and you can see the difference in leaf size: (the plant was outside from about middle of May until beginning of November)
Rina
greenclaws UK, Zone 8a
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Al....Wow, I wasn't expecting that! I can now see why you let it grow to 7ft and then cut it back so severely to get that thick base to what will be a very sharply tapered specimen in a few years time. That makes complete sense to me. I like the way the scars are as you say rolling over the cut area, they will make interesting features combined with that dramatic windswept look. You have a very good 'eye' for such detail. I am envious!

thanks for sharing....and cutting the plant back, as I said, I wasn't expecting that!

Gill UK
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Rina

I always wait to see as this your ovata is growing. Very interesting specimen!

Al

what means this abbreviation OP?
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Oksana

That is same plant I posted on another thread -this one- and you replied to my post.

I'll answer for Al - OP means Original poster.

Rina
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
Rina

I want to see all plant!

Oksana
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Oksana

It's not so easy to photograph this plant and I am not good in taking photos, but here are few just taken:
The very first leaves that started growing after original pruning were small and close together as you still can see in the today's photo. This plant was not fertilized at all - so bigger leaves did not receive any extra nutrition, same as very first leaves, and it is potted in mix of grit, perlite and turface.
Top view:

I am planning on shortening most of the branches (they were left as they grew but pruned to healthy tissue) maybe coming spring/summer 2016. I am not going to remove the branches entirely yet, as I want the trunk to grow fatter.

This is how the plant looked when I got it, many branches were braking and leaves falling off:
Rina
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
8 years ago
So much valuable information in this thread! Once I get minute to sit down and properly reply i will.

Rina - I love the way your jade looked originally! all windswept looking :)
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Kzzle

Thank you - it was given to me after forgotten about and left on the balcony; it was there since spring but by middle of December we had freezing weather few times. I left as much of it as I could, but tips of branches and many leaves were falling off (too bad I didn't take the photo of the mes!) - they were too brittle from the freeze.

Pls. keep posting about what you decided to do with your plant. We all love to see and read about progress of plants - and 'picture is worth a thousand words"...:)

Rina
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
8 years ago
I will definitely keep this updated. I'm about to move house so will probably just let it grow for now and see how its going come next spring.

I have a few more of these jades floating around that have bonsai potential so might play around and experiment a few different things on each one :)
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
8 years ago
Al,

Unfortunately I cannot take credit for the bifurcation as that was already done when the plant came into my possession. The bifurcation is what originally piqued my interest and potential for bonsai specimen
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
Rina

is it an actual ovata? Then I'm confused by the large leaves which look as obliqua. I know they grow in the presence of sufficient quantities of nitrates. Are you sure of the quality of your water?
Look on the left ovata. Lowest leaves have grown in a very nutrient soil.

Oksana
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Oksana

I believe it is ovata, but I may be wrong.

During summer outdoors, it got watered by rain, it rained enough that I only had to water myself only few times. Indoors, I was using rain water when available, and distilled water few times. Same as all my plants, succulents and otherwise. The well water where I lived last year was 'hard', and I used it to water my plants only very few times.

Rina
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I don't know what to think. But your Ovata receives extra nutrition. It is unlikely that your air contains a lot of nitrogen oxides. Or may contain?
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I really doubt that...and I moved 3 months ago, plants are same - but it is too early to tell.

I don't use fertilizer, have said that in many of my posts. Here are some photos I just took of some of the other plants, as you can see all have many large leaves (2" and more). Some of these are from cuttings from the same mother plants, some were given to me, but they all grow very similar:

I have 3 Gollum plants that I bought earlier this year; there were 3 plants in the same pot. I separated them, potted individually in exactly same mix, exactly same size pots, they stay side-by-side in same light/temp conditions and are watered at exactly same time with exactly same water, no fertilizer. Look at the different growth - I don't know why are the leaves different size - is it possible they were different cuttings?

I have 5 or 6 jades with small leaves; they were all given to me as tiny cuttings so I don't know the origin. Again, they grow under same conditions as I mentioned, and they stay small-leaved, just under 1" (2-2.5cm). These are in large container, so the roots are not restricted.
Rina
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
Rina

I'm sorry, i was ill. And I was wrong. Your plants are growing large leaves only firstly. While there are old stocks of nutrition. The new leaves are more compact on your soil.

Oksana
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Oksana

Hope you are feeling better!

Regarding larger jade that I pruned a lot: I believe you are mistaken, or I don't quite understand what you mean: first leaves were small. Leaves growing after are large. When I re-pot, I don't add any fertilizer to the mix, it is just grit+perlite+turface. So I am not sure what you mean by 'old stock of nutrition'.

Few small-leaved jades I have have been growing in exactly same mix for as long as I have them. Small ones in my last post are in the same pot & mix for couple of years now, they are from small cuttings - here is the earliest photo I have of them:

Here are some others I have:

It was suggested here that these may be small-leaved because they are in small pots. Maybe that is the case, I am not sure. One on the left grew small leaves first (you can see them on very bottom of the plant), then bigger and then smaller again. Mix for this plant has some bark in it, but not the plant on right. These 2 plants are started from leaves.

Rina
greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
8 years ago
Rina, it's very common for compact or small-leafed Jades to grow several pairs of small leaves, then a pair of larger leaves, then several pairs of small leaves, and so on and so forth.

Josh
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Josh

I don't doubt it, and you mentioned it when I inquired before (at least year ago or more). I am just trying to show (back & forth with Oksana) that without any supplemental nutrition, these plants grow different sized leaves.

From her post: Your plants are growing large leaves only firstly.
While there are old stocks of nutrition. The new leaves are more compact
on your soil.

In example I posted originally (and I believe it to be 'common' Crasulla ovata), the first leaves were small. Then large ones, but I didn't feed plants at all. Still same pot size, same soil - they have not been re-potted. The plant this discussion was started about, was 99% defoliated - I know that causes leaves growing smaller (photos on Tuesday, 12:48) - that's all I am trying to put across.

Oksana knows much more about growing jade - she has much more scientific knowledge about what's going on, and I am not trying to prove her wrong. Just pointing what else could contribute to it (I know growing conditions could be very different, but these plants are in exactly same environment for almost 3 years - indoors in winter+supplemental lights, outdoors in full sun weather permitting).

I am definitely going to grow few of them side-by-side and fertilize half of them, to compare - especially size of the leaves.

Rina
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Kizzle

I have to apologize for meddling in your post! My excuse:) is that there is some info that came out of it relevant to your original questions...Thank you.

Hope we will see many photos of your plant and it's progress.

Rina
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
Rina

I understand the leaf size depends on the wavelengths of light. As on my ovatas. But obliqua leaves indicate the organic nutrition. Are you sure in the your water quality? May it contain the nitrates?

Oksana
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
8 years ago
Oksana

I can't tell about what the water is like since I never did or have done any analysis. But most of the water all my plants receive is rain water, I have 5 rain barrels that I collect water in, and use it in winter too as long as there is some; I have immersible heater to keep it from freezing. So I would say that 80-90% (maybe more?) of the water plants receive is rain water. Otherwise it was well water, that is hard.

Rina
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
8 years ago
Many factors work together to determine leaf size. I'm not doubting that wave length (color) of light has an impact on leaf size, though I've never read that. I do know that nutrient levels/ratios, visible light intensity/duration, state of root congestion, the number of apices on the plant, and the grower's energy management practices, all work independently or in concert to affect leaf size and internode length.

Al
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
Al

the influence of the light wavelength on leaf size is well shown in the works of Protasova, Soviet scientist. And leaf sizes of my plants under different light have good correlation with Protasova conclusions. Under blue light or direct sun my jades grow smaller leaves than under red or diffuse light.
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
8 years ago
I can see the correlation between direct sun and diffused light, but other than light bulb emissions, how do you determine the wavelength of the light the plant actually receives?

Al
oks2n2_Siberia1
8 years ago
Al

I have 2 fixtures: the first with more blue light and the second with more red light. The direct sunlight happens very rare and not long in our parts. So I know what light the plant actually receives. My jades don't receive for 9-10 months another light besides the artificial.

About my red fixture

http://vk.com/video211317900_171928626

And the fixture with more blue light

http://vk.com/video211317900_171928597

Oksana.
nomen_nudum
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
A very nice LED lighting set up . LED lighting ( in a sense) isn't very common for many to use on the forum. More commonly used ( at four foot bulb lengths) are T- 8 or a T type 6500 K CFL. As they are somewhat more practical and in budget @ price per bulb for those who have ( less rare )longer sun time season of 5-8 months. With a wide range of plant hardy zones in USA some folks don't even have to bring in a jade.

As seen via Kzzle Meow in original posting it seems the jade is outside which indicates they ( Meow) may be in a better growing zone for a jade than most others who share information.
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
8 years ago
Whew. Ok. Finished moving and ready to begin repotting everything. I had limited space to pack so uprooted everything (not the best idea but had to work with what i had!) Except the Jade which is still in its pot.

I live in Australia - NSW now so i think we have pretty good growing conditions here. Plenty of sunshine and not much fear of frosts in winter. Its summer here now :)

I think now its just the waiting game.. see what my jade does over the next few months. Its already starting to bud little leaves. Exciting!
Kzzle Meow
Original Author
6 years ago
Ressurecting this thread to post an update on my Jade :)

12ish months later..

It got root rot at some point last year so I chopped the bottom off and repotted. It has been replanted into a proper succulent mixture with lots of perlite. Sits on my step outside the front door and gets heaps of sunlight.

I need to remove some of those pesky leaf buds along the stem to clean it up a little.

I think its looking pretty good ^.^
Danielle Rose
6 years ago
Really beautiful. Even in your original post, I envied how perfectly you had the trunk shape. Definitely getting a great little tree look to it. Well done!
Jeff (5b)
6 years ago
That's a big turnaround. I'd like to see further development.