Robo, that's an excellent threaded discussion you've copied. It's right on target. Telling the OP to just let it go, accept her because she's not going to change, etc., while well-meaning, can undermine the validity of OP's feelings.

Jmck, I'm glad you find all this cathartic because that in itself can be healing.

Since you already knew what your Mom was like, I don't think you needed to hear the complaints, I agree your brother should have handled it differently. I certainly would not have forwarded the email. I'm sure you are no exception and wherever she ate she would have complaints. Too bad for you that your Mom is like that, but best to accept her behavior as her problem and not focus on it, that cannot lead to any good for you.

Lisad, if the mother is truly a narcissist like the OP says, then there is absolutely nothing she can do to validate her feelings to her mom. Narcissists don't care about our feelings. Because of the mothers age, and if she truly is narcissistic, then the only thing jmck can do is let it go or cut mom from her life. Talk therapy is the only treatment for narcs, and that's not even a guaranteed cure. It's an awful situation she's in, for sure.

I agree, Oakley. I was referring to some of the well-meaning advice here that suggested she should accept her mother and still incorporate her into her holiday plans. I think she should be encouraged to consider removing her mother from her life entirely. There is no high road in continuing to put oneself in the path of an abuser.

I read most of the comments last night - and of course, have forgotten what I have read, so am just adding my .02.

I, too, dealt with "mother" issues. I was the oldest of four and always was expected to "know better". So no matter what happened, I was expected to be the big girl. My father passed away 40+ years ago and my mother was alone until she passed away early last year at 92. My brothers moved across the country, so other than an occasional phone call and less occasional visit, they were out of the picture. However, the sun still rose and set on both of them. My sister was divorced with three small children and needed to work. My mother took care of them, babysat, laundry, toting them back and forth, etc. I know she needed the help and certainly am glad my mother was there for her, but since I had a husband, I didn't "need" anything from her. I hardly remember compliments from my mother. Unless it was done her way, it wasn't right. There was only one way to make certain things - she did cook a lot - and nothing I ever did measured up. It is interesting how at any age, we would so love to have affirmation from our parents. It rarely happened.

Now, I don't think I was dealing nearly with what you are, but it was always so hurtful. How I would have loved to have her compliment my food, house, whatever. On the rare occasions when it did happen, it was almost like "where did that come from"? She was very healthy until the last five years, then went downhill. She could barely walk and although my sister did so much for her, I still was the main caretaker. I took her shopping, to get her hair done, doctor appoints, etc. Since I own my own business and my office is in my home, she didn't think I worked.

When she passed away, I really struggled. I was sad that she was gone, but was angry with what I was left with. She still owned her house and I was the one cleaning it and getting it ready for sale. I spent hours and days down there - she wouldn't let us clean and in some way I was trying to protect her by cleaning afterwards. I didn't want anyone else to see what I saw. I was the one who she abused the most and yet I was the one who took care of her and then did everything after. All my siblings had to do was cash their inheritance check, small as it was.

It took me a very long time to let it go. I finally came to the realization that she really did do the best she could. I don't think she wanted to be bitter and angry, but she was. I just don't think she knew anything else. I think we are a product of how we were raised. I don't think she had much of a home-life. As I look back, there are many things I did with my own children that I regret. What I am trying to do is become a better person and a better mother. My children are grown with families of their own, but I never stop telling them how much I love them, complimenting things they do and making them feel loved. We need that affirmation at any age. I spend as much time as I can with our grandchildren.

In her last years when she was really angry that she couldn't do what she wanted, she become much more difficult to deal with. Nothing made her happy. I just kept thinking that she was doing the best she could, how I would feel if I were in her position - which I might be some day - and just tried not to let it get to me. It was so very hard to do. I am in tears as I write this, as I miss her so much. I know she wasn't the best mother - but I don't know how you define "best". She did take care of our physical needs as children, but no emotional needs. She felt her job was to cook and clean and then b*tch about how much cooking and cleaning she did. I just keep telling myself she did the best she could and did what she thought was right. She tried, she really did.

Your mother is who she is, and unfortunately that is a bitter, angry woman. She is not going to change. All you can do is decide how you are going to react to what she does. That was the only way I got through the last five years.

Whatever you decide to do about the upcoming holidays, may you find peace.

No_green_thumb, thanks for sharing your experience. I would imagine it's as difficult accepting the inaction of your siblings, too (with the possible exception of your sister).

At what point in our lives are we held accountable for how we treat others? If I live to be 90 and I'm still making the same mistakes I'm making now that hurt others, I hope they remove me from their lives. I hope I'm raising my kids to not accept ill treatment from anyone in their lives, including me.

ETA I wonder what the advice to OP would be if the email and years of hurtful behavior came from her spouse. She'd be encouraged to divorce him, get counseling and never look back.

Lisa----exactly. For some reason people excuse and tolerate the worst behavior from the people who should love them the most. I consider it one of the worst character traits of our human race.

adding, I have been guilty of this as well--- not to the extent I have read here though, and for that I am truly thankful.

Gosh this is awful to read and I am sorry that you have this situation. I am too familiar. All I can say is the healthiest behavior for you is setting boundaries. She will never change so YOU be the change. If it helps, imagine putting on a protective coat that will repel her hurtful words and behaviors or some other toxic barrier between you and the evil one.

She will die one day but you must go on living. You might benefit from some sessions with a counselor (not implying, just experience) just to rebalance your brain from all the years of abuse. Cher was right, "words are like weapons, they wound somethimes" well, sometimes they do more than wound.

The goal is to protect yourself. Distance, dilution, decontamination. We get to pick our friends thank heavens but not so lucky with the relatives.

You will never make her happy so don't make yourself crazy trying. It's a sick game so don't play. That way she can't "win". This is where a therapist can be helpful with some guidance on how to protect yourself. I wish you all the best!

I didn't read all of the replies, but I wanted to share that writing out my negative feelings helps me move past hurts inflicted by loved ones. I never read those writings again, but knowing that I expressed my feelings in a tangible way helps somehow. The holidays are particularly fraught with family tensions and I look forward to the day when the hurtful ones are no longer a part of my life.

I think your brother should come to your defense. He does not have to say he forwarded the email but he could question her ridiculing your cooking,etc etc.

he can say I always found J a good cook, it hurts me when you insult my sister.

maybe he will get her to see her errors.

Perhaps brother copied you in the email to curtail Mother's attempt to gossip. I had an aunt who would do this at a luncheon or tea (before the days of email). She was a formidable woman, always on the side of the gossipee rather than the gossiper, and it was a very effective way of shutting down gossip.

Nothing you can do will please your mother, she is not willing! I think you should make holiday plans that give you joy and peace, then decide which (if any) Mother may share in without hurting you. Perhaps you can take her to a holiday concert, or the Nutcracker. Something that requires little preparation or interaction.

It will be a gift to the rest of your family if you protect your own heart. We have some difficult in laws and are very careful to limit the energy we expend on them. It's time for love, magic, flying reindeer, beautiful snowflakes, candle chimes, St. Nicholas. No one is interfering with my family's joy!

It's only a silly email, delete it from your system and your mind. You're in control, adjust to the fact that we can't change other people but we can change ourselves. I'm sure you're a good, kind person and one who couldn't bear to think of your Mom alone on a holiday so, be the better person.

My former FIL is narcissistic and would periodically send out scathing emails enumerating an individual's many sins against him to the individual and any number of relative he imagined were interested parties. At one point I asked him to stop cc'ing me on his diatribes to my (now) ex. He managed to misunderstand and stopped cc'ing his wife, but continued to include me. I periodically (still) get on the phone with my SIL and inevitably the conversation turns to whatever bug is up his nether regions lately. Both his children have gone through long periods of not talking to him.

That said, I don't think you should do anything about the email, other than perhaps tell your brother that he doesn't need to share these kinds of things with you in that way. It would be one thing if you were commiserating about it in a conversation, but getting it via email gave you the criticism without the familial commiseration with your brother that might have let you roll your eyes as you let it roll off your back.

The way I see it, the email didn't tell you anything you didn't already know. Your mother cant' be pleased (by your hostessing or anything else), she's prone to make catty comments to third parties. You knew all that. If your brother hadn't copied you, you could have easily kept your blinders on enough to continue dealing with her in a civil manner. Your brother tore the blinders off. Now you have the hard work to work up enough denial, or call it equanimity, to carry on without fanning the fire.

Narcissistic people always bring this Aesop fable to mind:

The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"
Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

(Source: http://www.aesopfables.com/cgi/aesop1.cgi?4&TheScorpionandtheFrog)

Just a couple of things about the email.

Why did your brother send it to you? Was it necessary that you hear about your mom's thoughtless words?

Would revealing the contents of brother's email betray a trust in the confidences you share between the two of you? If he doesn't mind, why isn't he being critical of her directly?

As tempting as it is to serve her poorly cooked turkey potentially laced with salmonella, I would take the high road and pay her no mind. She wants drama and attention. Don't give it to her.

Is there any chance your brother could have ulterior motives in providing you with this hurtful, painful information? Like, if you confront her or cut her out of your life over this, he might become the only inheritor? Has she a history of favoring him in some way?

If you're not familiar with narcissistic behavior you need to google it. There is nothing you can say or do that will have any impact on a narcissistic person's opinion or outlook, one way or the other. Remember that Narcissus became so enamored of his own reflection in a pool of water that he was oblivious to anything around him and fell in and drowned. That's a good analogy for how impervious these folks are to outside influences. They live in their own self centered world and nothing will shake them out of it, no words or events. They can't change. Detaching is the only way to deal with this. Let it go. Don't give her power to hurt you. You'll never get what you deserve from her. Give it up and live your own full life without needing anything from her. Sadly, she has nothing to give.

I agree with above (Ipinkmtn). If you haven't lived with or experienced a close relationship with NPD, you really cannot fathom what it is like. It isn't a matter of finessing your behavior when around this person. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will change their behavior or get them to see their faults. They are simply never in the wrong. They are extremely self-centered (duh, hence the name:)) and their behavior is never responsible for poor outcomes. They are also very good at mind games and manipulation. I could go on and on, but all of this to say that no behavior change on the part of the OP will render her mother to change her behavior. The only thing the OP can to do to insure self-preservation is to figure out a way to co-exist (or not) with her mother. There is a tremendous amount of hurt, anger, guilt, resentment that the OP is living with. She simply has to set limits. And perhaps the above recommendation of therapy is one she/you should consider. It is a very, very tough road to travel without help. Sorry to butt in again but obviously this hits very close to home. And, yes, if you google NPD you will get a pretty good picture of what the OP is dealing with; there is absolutely no exaggeration in the descriptions/definitions you will read.

Thank you to all who continue to respond. This is extremely helpful. I know I'm not going to change her, but because I am who I am (a nice person, but no doormat) I need to deal with her. She has nobody else. There are no relatives. I have grown to HATE holidays, which is sad for my own family as they feel the stress I try to hide.

From the thread that Robo referenced above, I found this description that almost perfectly matches my situation, except that the poster's sibling died and mine absconded to Germany:

Yes, my mother's acquaintances seem to think I have a loving mother and who can blame them? They see this seemingly gentle, soft-spoken little old lady who talks about loving her child ... . What they don't understand is that apparently my mother equates her insatiable cravings for love and attention FROM me with actually loving me. My mother is fond of saying, “I never really had a life of my own. My children have been my whole life.” When my sibling died four decades ago, that left me as her “whole life,” which can still make me feel desperate and guilty since I dread spending even the smallest amounts of time with her. But I have come to realize that I am actually the one who was never supposed to have her own life. My mother didn’t want her own life – she wanted mine. For my mother, my purpose was, and is, to be an attractive reflection of her idea of herself, and to provide love and service to her. The truth of her declaration of “I never had my own life,” is that she has never provided her own emotional or practical sustenance. My father was supposed to work and provide money for her, and we children were supposed to provide lifetime service and attention and love. That was my mother’s plan, and she is bitter that my idealized-in-death older sibling is gone, and that my father and I fell woefully short of fulfilling her desires.

jmck - are you living with me? LOL My mother, who now requires some support and care and most of it from me, tells people, in front of me, I'm so glad I had children so that now they can take care of me. And L (me) doesn't work so she can do it. Yep, I am my mom's personal servant as far as she is concerned, - never mind that she hasn't taken any interest in us or her grandchildren for the last 30 years.

Gotta run and drive her to her gym class for which a caregiver (me) has to stay with the participants.

"It isn't a matter of finessing your behavior when around this person. "

dsg, you put that so well.

Thinking about the comments about setting boundaries -- when I finally wised up after 10 years to what was going on and began setting boundaries, the person's attitude changed from disrespect & condescension to active hatred. She felt justified to really, truly hate me because she thought I was being hateful to her. So just be prepared. Boundaries will protect you somewhat, but the nature of the battle will change.

If the mother would have slapped you in the face each time instead of making a hurtful remark, how would you react? Would you invite her back? Would you need justification for not inviting her back? There is no relationship to maintain. This is abuse. Like the spouse who won't leave because s/he deserves what s/he gets?

Very, very good point, imhappy. I wish more people would look at their toxic relationships as you describe.

You have to keep in mind with the "I never had a life of my own" is that 99% of women didn't have choices in education or workforce until pretty recently. I tell my students we take it for granted that women can go to college and get advanced degrees, but for most women historically that was not the case. So, no, they never did have the freedom to have a life of their own.

My mother had only an 8th grade education (they were 16 when they finished 8th grade so few went on to any higher grades) and she was smart as all heck, but there were pretty much no educational opportunities for women, and the only real career opportunity she had was during WWII when all the men were gone.

That's absolutely no excuse to treat your children and everyone around you poorly. My mother used to do the same carp. She was in the Waves during WWII and that was the highlight of her life. She'd always talk in the past and everything "before kids and marriage (my dad was a wonderful man and she was extremely fortunate to have found him)" was some kind of amazing life and everything after wasn't good enough for her. Sorry, it just isn't an excuse. There is no excuse for abusing your kids. None. Period.

I also think, whether working outside the home or not, women can have a healthy attitude about being a mother and not foist the responsibility for her happiness or reason for living onto her kids. It's pretty easy to have a life outside a workplace and children: friends, neighbors, volunteering, gardening, classes, hobbies, etc. Not having good identity boundaries with your kids is very unhealthy for both mother and child.

Oh, my goodness. Some women have done amazing things way before their time. My grandmother, b. 1889, as well as her sister, was a school teacher. At one time the two of them were the entire support of the family. You don't have to look very long to find women who had careers. Not all of them, but it wasn't rare. At least not around here.

I speak from a place of understanding as I have a mother who, too, has narcissistic tendencies. When I read the email the OP posted, I have to admit to not understanding what was so hurtful about it. The mom didn't say it to her but to her brother. Heck, my mom would have said it and more right to my face. Frequently, my sister and I have watched her interacting with other people and say "who is that woman?". The woman I see her being around others is really quite delightful. She is well-liked. Too bad she couldn't ever act that way with us.

I have written three responses, all deleted, because they sound like lectures. Maybe this one will get posted.

I have been able to work through my hurt and anger at her and just enjoy her for what she is. Her comments don't sting but, rather, result in good stories to share with other family and a few of my closest friends. Sometimes the stories are only good for an eye roll and a chuckle but, sometimes, they make us roll with laughter. I can't change her but I can change the way she makes me feel and how I respond to her. There have been bets placed before gatherings on just what she'll criticize first. They are always couched with comments like "This is really nice BUT.....". And she has NEVER been wrong. We have a Scrabble story that is quite infamous. One of many but certainly the funniest.

Some parents are so toxic that we must divorce them from our lives. If you need to do that, do it. Without regrets. But I think it's a more valuable exercise to learn to feed our own self-worth from within, to love ourselves so we don't need someone else's love to make us feel lovable, to acknowledge our own failings and weaknesses so we are more able to accept those in others, and to learn to laugh at the challenges life throws at us. If you can do that, great. It is both freeing and powerful.

My mom is now 92 and in advanced Alzheimer's. This is the first year she has not shared holidays with us as she doesn't even know who we are and leaving the memory care facility is very stressful for her. I actually miss having her around. She will not be adding anymore stores to our family lore. Mores the pity, imho.

Funkycamper, thank you. I agree with you to some extent and I get that she did not say it to my face exactly that way, however, she did make her dissatisfaction known to my face. She was not as outspoken as usual because my niece was here as a witness. I also have a vast store of outrageous and often hilarious mother stories and that is how I have coped so far. I often say that I should write a book or take up stand-up comedy or write a sit-com. I think it makes it a little harder as there are no other family members to be victims with me. Not sure if you have that. I hear you and I'm sorry your mother is not able to be with you for the holidays.

I saw my mother today to help her decorate her apartment. She has a bad cold so we cut short our visit. I did not say anything to her about the email and I doubt I will. I may just suggest we do not have a meal when we celebrate Christmas together, but she will probably protest and insist on being here. Perhaps we will try placing bets on her comments...especially about the potato ricer that she informed me at Thanksgiving that I needed (someone said on TV that is the way to do mashed potatoes) since I have been making mashed potatoes all wrong. I'm sure she will be giving me one despite the fact that I told her I like making the potatoes my way. Like the year I told her not to get me the giant rear view mirror attachment she had in her car that completely blocks the FRONT view. She gave it to me anyway and then when we couldn't find her later on Christmas day we found she was out in the garage installing it in my car! You can't make this stuff up, and I do see the humor!

Oh, MY! She was installing it. LOLOL Yup, we have also said we should write books or do stand-up.

I have a sister to share it with. My dad traveled a lot for his work. Sometimes his job would take him overseas for 3-6 months at a time. (Big surprise, eh?) My sister, really a half-sister, is 9 years older than I am and moved out upon graduation to live with her dad. So the years after she moved out and when he would be traveling were really tough. I became involved in as many after-school activities as possible. And then, when home, would stay quiet in my room hoping she'd forget I was around.

Unfortunately, my sister is more angry about it all than I am. I suspect it was because she and my dad didn't get along well and her own dad was an alcoholic and not very attentive to her. When my dad was home from his biz trips, he and I would often go on long walks together in the evenings and take off and go hiking or to the beach on the weekends. She didn't have a safe, loving and attentive parent like I did. My dad gave me enough love, understanding, companionship, and hugs to make up for what I didn't get from my mom. (I truly don't recall even one time when she hugged me.)

My sister can only laugh about it with a few martinis under her belt. And then she cries. I wish I could get it across to her that, imho, if you cry about it, you let Mom win.

I think the last time I let her hurt me was when I was the star pianist at my piano teacher's spring recital. I was so proud and played my piece (Moonlight Sonata) beautifully. While complete strangers were complimenting me, her only comment after was "I wish you sat as tall and straight as Linda does when she plays the piano." Uff da! I partly practiced so hard was because I just knew that she would finally have to give me a compliment. Not! That was many decades ago and she hasn't gotten under my skin since. Even though sometimes she would try extra hard. The mean streak in me kinda enjoyed watching her try.

It took my DH over a decade to not get aggravated by her. Especially when she'd come down when he was working on a project and proceed to tell him how to do it even though she had never pounded a nail or sawed a board in her life. But she had read all about it, dontcha know. :)

I can't really advise you on what to do. We all have to weigh our options and make our own choices. And do with what we know will make us feel the best when it's all over. Maybe it helps you feel better knowing you're not alone? And that if you ever write the book or develop that stand-up routine, there are a lot of us who would be your fans because we can totally relate.

Just take care of yourself and find a way to enjoy the holiday, with or without Mom.

jmck - well, you may make mashed potatoes wrong but, I peel potatoes wrong! LOL

I'v read almost every post, and I only recall one father who was narcissistic. When I was a young mother, I remember friends who had husbands that were what I called 'mean'. At times it would be directed toward the wife, but it really seemed to be toward the children. They were almost hateful. The child/children were usually boys. I can't help but believe there were/are more narcissitic fathers since they usually have higher expectations of their sons, therefor harder on them. I'll consider myself blessed not to have known any mothers who were narcisstic, or kept it hidden.

I have read through a few of the responses given.

My mother's mental illness became very out of hand when she became sick and after my father died. She treated me terribly most of the time. She always had to follow a compliment with a complaint. She only thought of herself in many situations. However, there were moments and periods of time she acted much warmer and like her sweeter self (as when I was younger).

I was going through a terrible time in my life when she was acting hateful. I was always arguing with her just to pick a fight bc I was so angry.

During this time, she passed away and I was relieved. That was seven years ago. Now, the guilt is overwhelming. How I wished I had acted differently. I know I can not change what has already happened and she is gone. I have found myself crying and feeling so terrible and wishing I could go back. I can't. I am working through this.

I share this is hopes that maybe you can see past her narcissism. Try and talk to her and ask her to put herself in your shoes. You definitely do not want to carry around what I do someday. I am not saying you would. Just thought I would share.

I needed to read this today. Actually I could have wrote it.

blfenton, yes, apparently we also peel incorrectly but fortunately there is a gadget to improve this. I expect to see it on Christmas!

This is extra hilarious because my mother has never peeled a potato as long as I've known her... our mashed potatoes in my childhood always came from a box.

aktillery, I am sorry you are feeling guilty over this. You must forgive yourself. You were doing the best you could at that time in your life. You are human.

I would call her out on her behavior (but it won't do any good ) and say you will need proof that she is under a mental health doctors care with prescribed mental disorder drugs before you have her over again. She will be so mad she will not come. She won't be alone, people like this always have sweet gullible friends.

"Try and talk to her and ask her to put herself in your shoes."

By definition this is what a narcissist cannot do. Or doesnt do. You may as well ask a cat to bark.

The guidance of a good counselor cannot be overstated. We only get one life. Sharing good or bad experiences here is fine but in the long run, what does it accomplish? Some of these mother experiences are toxic and not everyone comes equiped to handle that. After all, it's probably the most important relationship as it is the basis for all other relationships. Then history starts repeating itself like when you start hearing your mother coming out of your mouth or seeing your reaction and recalling that same situation many years ago from the receiving end.

We can't "fix" them but we can learn to heal ourselves and put things in proper perspective. My heart breaks when I read these stories. This situation really benefits from a counselor/therapist if only to help one see things for what they really are. Only then can one begin to heal emotionally eventually getting to a point where you can look back without regret.

I kept this poem that was in a church bulletin over 30 years ago. It was just what I needed that day. It meant different things at different times of life for me.

"Comes The Dawn"

After a while you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn’t mean leaning
And company doesn’t mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren’t contracts
And presents aren’t promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head up and your eyes open
With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child,
And you learn to build all your roads on today,
Because tomorrow’s ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in mid-flight.
After a while you learn
That even sunshine burns if you get too much.
So you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul,
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure...
That you really are strong,
And you really do have worth.
And you learn and learn...
With every goodbye you learn.

Author: Unknown

meyerK9 - You have a really good point and one that I'm struggling with right now as my sons enter their mid and late 20's. Because my mom is so critical and nothing I do is right and life is always about her (blah, blah, blah) I don't have a good example of how to be an adult parent to my now-adult children and their partners. My sister seems to have it figured out with her now adult children (my sister left the city 33 years ago and sees our mom once every 3 years for 2 days - it's all she can take) and she is good about giving me hints.

I just tend to keep my mouth shut except for pleasantries. :(

I have a copy of that poem that I cut out years ago (the Washington Post used to publish a column every Sunday written by the Poet Laureate of the US-miss that). Very powerful, but never thought of it in terms of a parental relationship. I also had a narcissistic mother. I found that distance and brief conversations were best for me. At 90, your mother will not change. Please do not hope for that. The best you can do is change your own responses and know it is not about you.

While I completely understand how the affects of these types of mother and daughter relationships can still float around in your personal bubble even after you set restrictions...you still HAVE to set restrictions. It won't solve everything but it will make you feel like you have at least some control over your own happiness. You can still love her in your own way ( maybe not the same as close families) by limiting contact. Will you feel guilty? Maybe. You don't owe them though. It's not a bill you have agreed to. It's more like volunteering in that you have control over the amount of time you want to give. Restrictions are good.

My mother and sister live in the same area, my mother in assisted living. My sister visits no more than once every week or two. She'll have her over for Christmas, Thanksgiving and maybe Easter. That's IT unless she has a dr.'s appt in which case that will count as the weekly visit. Ironically, with dementia my mother has had a personality change and is actually nicer than before and makes an effort to be pleasant but it isn't possible to connect with her on any relevant level. Sometimes I wonder if she isn't easier to be around now because she is completely dependent upon everyone around her (the minute she went into AL her personality changed), something she never had to deal with before.

Anyway, my point is that I admire my sister for finding what works for her and hoping you will do the same. This needs to be about you right now and not her. (Gosh, I sound like such a witch! But if your mother truly is a narcissist, you have been through hell and back and deserve some peace.)

((((jmck))) You've done nothing to deserve her bitter words.

I've seen this on facebook. May it help you in your journey.

I think a lot of older people are like that, at least a lot of ones that I know. They are so used to not having to take care of anyone but themselves, that they don't think about other people's feelings. They forget how to empathize with other people at all. I think that it's really sad that they act like this, because other people don't want to be around them. My MIL was like this, and she made things very stressful for me when she was alive. It was sad because we could have been friends, but instead, she made it so that I did not want to be around her at all. If I were you, I would do the minimum for awhile, until the sting of it eased. She isn't going to change, she doesn't think she has to, and forget about her apologizing. It just won't happen!

" I found that distance and brief conversations were best for me."

Yeah, THIS.

bifenton, you are not alone. Many of us did not have decent role models for parenting. Sometimes it is better to make it up as you go instead of using bad data. In regard to your sons, just be honest with them and their partners. You are healing and it takes time. No need to compare yourself to your sister because that can become another huge issue. One day at a time.....

bifenton, you don't need that role model. I think that you already know that you are a good parent. I too, have adult children with spouses in their twenties. I make myself available when they can be around just to talk and eat, and be together. I think that they want, what we all want, and that is a soft easy place to land, where they can relax and be themselves, in an environment that is not combative... a home, and someone who loves them...a parent, you!

I've posted about my parental issues here before.

My very abusive (malignant personality disorder) father is rotting away in a nursing home somewhere. His situation is what he made it and I have no guilt knowing he is unloved and, most likely, desperately lonely.

It wasn't until recently that I realized (with the help of this forum) that my mom has narcissistic tendencies. Mom is 71 and I've decided to disengage from her. Basically, I'm being very agreeable with her but not sharing anything she can turn around and use against me.

For instance, she's visiting my sister right now and told my sister that I hate my son's fiancee. That's not true, in fact, I love her and can't wait for her to be my official DIL. Awhile ago, I shared a situation with mom that was happening between DS & DIL and I felt DIL was in the wrong. So in Mom's twisted world, that meant I hate her. I won't be sharing anything with her anymore unless it's a recipe or discussions about the weather. If her manipulations get worse (her narcissism seems to be progressing with age), I will cut her out of my life completely. I won't care if she's 100 years old.

From having an abusive childhood, I vowed a very long time ago to be a happy adult and that means to remove people from my life who like to create drama and faux problems. I've never understood why the same rule about getting rid of toxic friends doesn't apply to family as well.

Magdalena - I so agree with your last paragraph. You can get rid of toxic friends, you can divorce a toxic spouse, why can't you get rid of a toxic parent, adult-child or sibling?

Obviously, you can.

In my case, my mom had her good moments and was a great grandmother. As they became adults, the kids all saw how she treated me and my sister differently than she treated them and it bothered them but she treated all the grandchildren and great-grandchildren wonderfully. I would watch her interact with them and wonder why she can't give my sister and I the same unconditional love and support she gave them. At the same time, she no longer had any power over me and, for most of my life, was unable to hurt me or bring me down as I wouldn't allow it. It was not worth it to me to cut her out of my life because of the way that would have impacted the other family relationships. Seeing the loving relationships she had with her grandchildren and their happiness interacting with her gave me joy. All my statements are in past-tense because she has very advanced Alzheimer's and no longer knows any of us.

If someone is toxic enough where they cause pain for the entire family, it's a different situation. If she had caused emotional harm to my children, I would have cut her out of our lives in a heartbeat.

I think, in the end, the decision to cut out someone has to be based on how you will feel about it. If you will feel better and feel free, do it. If it will make you feel guilt or regret, maybe not. In that case, I'd suggest counseling to help you determine if the guilt or regret would be mitigated by the happiness cutting ties might bring. In any case, a good counselor can help you sort out the best course of action, if all contact should be cut or if it simply means better boundaries.