OGR suggestions for NJ Church Cemetery project

8 years ago

last modified: 8 years ago

I started a previous thread -- Tree-eater suggestions for NJ Church Cemetery project -- but am starting another at mad_gallica's suggestion. Please see that other thread for more information, as well as pics of the site.

For my "first wave" of roses, I'm looking at once-blooming OGRs to serve as "anchors" for further planting of companions and (later) some repeat-blooming OGRs. I've compiled a long list of Albas, Centifolias, Damasks, Gallicas, Hybrid Bourbons, Hybrid Chinas, Mosses, and Species and Species-Hybrids that would be both date-appropriate and are available either by my own propagation from material at one of the Botanical Gardens in NYC or for purchase from US nurseries. So, at mad_gallica's suggestion, please help me with recommendations for those which perform well for you. And please include your area, and particulars about your garden. As mad_gallica said, I should delete from my list anything which likely won't do well here. And if you have suckers or cuttings you'd be willing to donate for reimbursed shipping, all the better! My email is cgordon2@buffalo.edu.

Thanks in advance to all.

:-)

~Christopher

Featured Answer

mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)

8 years ago

I'll start this, but I may have to end abruptly. Thing 1 (the Orange Screen of Death) may decide that laying in front of the computer is once again more interesting than watching birds out the window.

There are disease resistant albas, and once that defoliate. There are probably more of the latter than the former, actually, so describing them all as disease resistant is just plain false. The older ones, Alba Maxima, Suaveolens, etc. are good, and I've seen good specimens of Felicite Parmentier. They are surprisingly hard to root, and don't seem to travel much, so they will probably need to be purchased. If you can get cuttings of Mme. Plantier, do it. It will get large, but has good foliage and stays put.

The list of good damasks is Ispahan and Kazanlak, the serious perfume roses. The best moss is Common Moss, though a few more like Henri Martin are growable. These will all run, but it seems that here Common Moss is the only one that wants to travel distances.

With gallicas be very, very wary of anything anybody wants to send you. These can become extremely high maintenance plants when they decide to take over the world. There are probably places in the cemetery where they can be controlled by mowing all around them, but even then I would avoid the truly terrible ones like Charles de Mills and La Belle Sultane (La Belle Sultane is the rose that Leonie Bell sent to Pickering so she could *buy* a grafted version of it.) Rosa Mundi is a fairly weak grower, so it doesn't spread much. Apothecary Rose is more vigorous, but still controllable.

As for species, most of the interesting oriental ones were introduced in the late 19th- early 20th century. If you can get Rose d'Amour, do it. Avoid Harison's Yellow unless you can give it a lot of space. It's a very awkward growing plant, and looks quite gawky unless it is given enough space that you don't see the individual canes. How to prune it so it looks decent has been a FAQ here on and off over the years.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but this is where you have to start. Leafless roses are not considered attractive during the growing season.

As for sourcing, that should be the least of your worries. Figure out what you want, then figure out how to get it. Don't overlook Palatine's offerings.

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Comments (9)

AquaEyes 7a NJ
Original Author
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
frances_in_nj, I hope you see this post. I tried sending you a message through Houzz, but was unable to figure out how. Please send me an email at your convenience.

:-)

~Christopher
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User
8 years ago
I do like the idea of fragrant old roses for a public space. I know there are fragrant new roses, but some I've encountered in the garden sections of Lowe's & HD smell more like "air freshener" (to me, that's an oxymoron) than roses.

It would be nice to have a space where people can be introduced to the concept of roses that have a history of growing well in their climate, and which have those old-fashioned rose fragrances.

As far as I know the only commercial source for 'Rose d'Amour' is Greenmantle; that's one I've had my eye on, though I haven't really researched it so see what conditions it likes.

Virginia
AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked User
catsrose
8 years ago
I'm in Roanoke, Va, which is red clay and winters ranging from 5-7. I second Mad Gallica's opinions on La Belle Sultane, Rosa Mundi, CdeM and the Apothocary. I have great success with Belle sans Flatterie and Ville de Toulouse. Both sucker strongly but not wildly--can be controlled--and you are welcome to suckers. Beau Narcisse has taken off splendidly, but hasn't started to sucker yet. I have a number of other Gallicas, but they are young, so I can't say what they will do. In general, I have very good luck with Gallicas, so-so with Damasks, and poor success with Mosses. The only moss I have had real success with is Henri Martin. My others limp along. With Albas, I had a fabulous Sappho until RRD got her. I've replanted her, but she's still small. Duchesse de Montebello, a Hy China/Hy Gallica has been good for me, and so has the Gallica/China Shell Rose. Among species: The Chestnut Rose, the Spinossimas, St. John's Rose, and something that may have been rootstock on a rose I got from Cliff (or else where did it come from?) and has beautiful hips, suckers slowly and is now at least 8' tall.

For future reference, Bourbons are iffy--they blackspot horribly--and I have all but given up on Hybrid Perpetuals.

If you are ever down this way, you are welcome to come thru and take as much as you like.
AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked catsrose
diane_nj 6b/7a
8 years ago
Listen to MG. May I also suggest looking at the collection of the Wyck House in Philadelphia, and inquiring about the OGR collection at the van der Goot garden in Somerset (Shauna is the head gardener; the rose list on the site isn't up to date). I can also put the word out around the NJ and Philly rose folks.
AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked diane_nj 6b/7a
User
8 years ago
Harrison's Yellow? The Iris Garden in Montclair has a mature speciman. That thing is a literaly tree! It is a wonder to behold.
AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked User
AquaEyes 7a NJ
Original Author
8 years ago
I've never seen 'Harrison's Yellow' in-person. How does it handle the blackspot pressure here?

:-)

~Christopher
Ken (N.E.GA.mts) 7a/b
8 years ago
One of my better OGR's that is totally trouble free is Pink Pet. This rose just won't die. I was worried about it being winter tender but has come through two of the toughest winters the older folks up here in the N. GA. mountains have seen in over 20 years. It has some of the most beautiful fall foliage I've seen in a rose. It blooms all season long. It just doesn't have any scent to the blooms. It roots very easily. I do 5 or 6 new bush's every year and give them away. This is one of those rose when you plant it, it will probably still be there 100 years from now.
AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked Ken (N.E.GA.mts) 7a/b
AquaEyes 7a NJ
Original Author
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
OK, so I couldn't help myself -- I placed a few small (for me) orders for the cemetery. I already reserved a few from Long Ago Roses, and I mentioned these in my previous thread. I'll list them again, along with the new orders, as well as what others here have offered to share or let me propagate. I heeded mad_gallica's advice about these roses being hard to root and likely better off being purchased.

Albas
“Ethel Yount’s White” found, possibly ‘Semi-Plena’ — Rose Petals Nursery

Centifolias
‘La Noblesse’ 1856 — Burlington Roses
‘Robert Le Diable’ pre-1858 — Long Ago Roses

Damasks
‘Celsiana’ pre-1732 — Burlington Roses
‘Ispahan’ pre-1827 — Long Ago Roses
‘Kazanlik’ VID pre-1612 — Rose Petals Nursery
‘Quatre Saisons’ pre-1633 — Rose Petals Nursery

Gallicas
‘La Belle Sultane’ pre-1795 — frances_in_nj
‘Rosa Mundi’ pre-1581 — Long Ago Roses

Hybrid Chinas
‘Hippolyte’ pre-1842 — Burlington Roses
‘Ombree Parfaite’ aka ‘Alice Vena’ 1823 — Long Ago Roses
“Rush Family Gallica” found — Long Ago Roses
“Ruth’s German Rose” found — Long Ago Roses
'Shailer’s Provence' 1799 — Long Ago Roses
“The Bishop” (not sure which "version") — Long Ago Roses

Hybrid Multifloras
‘Ghislaine de Feligonde’ 1916 — frances_in_nj
‘Veilchenblau’ 1909 — frances_in_nj

Hybrid Perpetuals
‘Baronne Prevost’ 1841 — Long Ago Roses

Mosses
‘Henri Martin’ 1862 — Long Ago Roses
‘Old Red Moss’ 1835 — Burlington Roses

Polyanthas, Climbing
‘Mlle Cecile Brunner, CL’ 1894 — vmr423
‘Phyllis Bide’ 1923 — frances_in_nj

Ramblers
‘Erinnerung an Brod’ pre-1884 — frances_in_nj
‘Paul’s Himalayan Musk Rambler’ 1916 — frances_in_nj

Species and Species Hybrids
R. primula 1890 — Paradise Gardens

Now, before everyone says I went nuts, a few caveats. First, planting isn't going to be restricted to existing beds you saw in the pics on the previous thread. When I spoke to Brian about possibilities, I mentioned that there was an old tradition of planting roses on graves. He liked that idea -- obviously not for every grave, but we're going to go through the list of "residents" and "honor" some of the more noteworthy ones with roses. Second, I know that some OGRs like Gallicas, some Hybrid Chinas, and Centifolias are known for suckering. These I don't want in beds, but rather in areas surrounded by grass or pavement to contain them.

I looked through my list -- both "coming" and "possibilities" -- while walking around the cemetery. I definitely found places where all would work with room for more, but final placement will be Brian the caretaker's decision. I'm going to grow them on in my "magic mix" through the Summer here, and bring them to the cemetery in mid to late August for planting. That's when temperatures tend to cool down, and heavy rains soon follow -- which would work well for getting them established.

Through the Winter, I'm going to be bringing my daily Starbucks hauls to the cemetery and start covering the beds -- not nearly as thickly as I do here, where I'm almost finished. I'm thinking an inch is fine. Brian's been collecting all the leaves into a big pile, shredding them, and holding the shredded leaves in bags for me to put down on top of the grounds. This will be going onto existing beds, but I wanted to wait for hard frost to kill off foliage on the other plants there. We're still waiting for one! The coldest three or four nights we've had so far went only to 30F for about an hour or so each time. Once the existing beds there are covered, I'll hold off until Spring to add more, and then only a sprinkling through the growing season. I'm hoping that this continued application will re-invigorate the soil there in time for rose planting in late Summer.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Stephen Scanniello about things available through the HRF, but I don't think he's returned to the US yet. So I'm not going to bug him while he's on vacation. I'm still open to more "pass-alongs" that would be appropriate for the era. I'm also going to try rooting some of my "inventory" in late Winter -- I already see a sucker on my 'Botzaris' which I'm hoping I can get going in a pot. Anything I bring to the cemetery that doesn't "find a home" there will be donated to the HRF via Stephen Scanniello. He happens to live just south of me in Barnegat.

:-)

~Christopher

OGR suggestions for NJ Church Cemetery project

mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)

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AquaEyes 7a NJ
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