Glad you like your Miele! Your disappointment about the DW garbage disposal is misplaced. Garbage disposals in DW are tiny feeble things, more of a marketing/advertising ploy than an actual disposal. And that is why the better DW manufacturers have eliminated disposals from their DWs. Don't mistake DW disposals for anything like a disposal for your sink. DW disposals tend to make a lot of noise, and don't do much else. I have had Miele DWs for more than 10 years. I clean the filter maybe every six months. Takes 1 minute, and I am not exaggerating.

Miele lumen vs Miele dimension?

That may all be true, but I have to say the disposal in our old machine certainly did a yeomanly job for the 18 years we had it. We abused it with all the stuff we left on our plates and never had any issue. We really just got the MIele so I have no record with it and no measurement on how often we'll need to clear the filter - we were told once a week - but we've already switched to defensively rinsing things really well.

Don't rinse before loading. Detergent enzymes can handle any food residue remaining after scraping.

"Miele lumen vs Miele dimension?" If you are asking what the differences are, I can tell you they are pretty hard to tease out from just the literature alone. I had to go see the different units in person to understand the differences. We picked the Lumen over the Dimension for the two reasons I spoke about in the original post: the basket system and stemware wash cycle - and the fact the the Lumen is the model Miele itself installed in the Design Center to clean their large volumes of glassware. (They hold wine tasting seminars in the center using only Riedel glasses, lots of glasses). The Dimension doesn't have the same basket system as the Lumen. The Lumen's basket is more configurable, which is important for the various glass sizes and various other things you might want to clean. The other reason is the dedicated glassware cycle - don't know yet if that will make a huge difference. The Lumen has a few other bells and whistles, but those are the ones that motivated us. It was really hard to determine the differences without seeing them - fortunately the Miele Design Center is not horribly far away from me and I was able to compare the entire Miele suite side by side. If I hadn't done that I wouldn't have discovered the differences between the baskets and a few of the other items.

I agree with Dadoes - you should just scrape, do not rinse. Not only does pre-rinsing mean there is nothing for your DW detergent to work on, but it is a waste of water, and, why have a DW at all if you are "defensively rinsing things really well". There is no reason to be defensive. You have a top-notch Miele DW.

I bought the Dimension today. We rarely wash wine glasses in the dishwasher and it wouldn't justify the higher cost of the Lumen. But it's a very cool machine!

Through Nov 30th they're offering a free 5 yr extended warranty. I grabbed the opportunity!

Congratulations on your purchase - you will love it. Glad you could see the various machines before buying. I did get that 5 year warranty, too! Timing is everything ... Though hopefully it won't be needed.

Everyone's needs are different - these were actually our full criteria, based on our needs, that glassware, the reality of our kitchen layout, and desires:

- Powerful washing capability & an overall well engineered product.

- Visible controls and no protruding handle - the Mieles can be configured with either hidden or visible controls, so this was perfect for us. Protruding handles do not work in our space and we like to be able to see 'status' - how much time left, etc.

- Able to handle lots of delicate stemware with no worries

- Flexible baskets to handle all weird sizes of glasses, bowls, pots & utensils.

- Large capacity

I did really like the Dimension and would rather have paid for it than the Lumen - but the Lumen had those few extras that made it the perfect choice for us. A bit of an ouch, but it's working out really well so far.

A caution to anyone considering a Miele: I discovered by going in to the design center that all of Miele's literature and even the "compare" info on their website contains flat out errors. It can be the wrong data and in some cases there are even contradictions right on the same page. If you are considering a Miele, you really have to go and physically compare.

The value of defensive rinsing rises in proportion to the time delay between when the first dishes are placed in the dishwasher and when the last dishes are placed in the dishwasher and it is started. But this is a mere odor and sanitation issue.

I may leave unrinsed dishware to accumulate for 3 to 4 days until running the load. *Very rare* that I notice any odor.

Regarding the "disposer" on your old KA. It is really nothing more than a macerator blade mounted on the pump impeller. It's real purpose was to chop the food debris into small enough bits that will fit through the spray arm jets so they don't clog. This means everything that was washed off the dishes is just sprayed back on the dishes.

Dishwashers with filters, once they wash off the food, the filter traps the food bits so only cleaner water flows through the spray arms and onto the dishes. In most cases the remaining food bits get flushed out of the filter during the drain cycle. This is why it in only necessary to check / clean the filter every few months.

Daryl-- I also opted for the integrated handle. Those bulky handles would be a nuisance in my kitchen layout as well. My current dishwasher also has the integrated handle and it works perfectly for us.

Thanks for the heads up on misleading info on the Miele site. I had a problem 13 yrs ago when we ordered a wood panel for the dishwasher door. The first measurement provided was incorrect and we had to order another panel after the machine was installed. Miele denied their error in measurements and we were stuck with the additional cost.

Well whatever the disposal/macerator/magic food annihilator did, we never rinsed for the time we had the KA, the dishes came out clean, I never had a clog, and there was no filter to clear every X amount of time. The new machine is still very new - just a couple weeks old - and based on everyone's comments here, I'm running a little personal experiment to see what does or does not collect in the Miele filter and how often it will need to be cleaned. The Miele company techs said "once a week" (they also said "Use Cascade powder"). I will treat the dishes exactly the way I previously treated the dishes and then I'll see what the results turn out to be. Let me be clear: I love the new machine. However, from my admittedly lazy and spoiled point of view, any need to get down on my hands and knees, take out the basket, the spray arm, and the filter, get up, wash the filter, and then restore everything as it was (without introducing an issue), is a step in the wrong direction of convenience, worry, and room for error, no matter how well the process has been engineered and simplified. I do realize that the feature is no longer available in any machine I would currently consider. That does not alter my overall bewilderment at what seems like a general retreat on the convenience front.

Daryl, I have an older Miele DW, but taking out the filter is not as many steps as you describe. I bend forward, but then just roll the lower tray forward, like I do when I load it, and then I pull the plastic handle on the filter cover toward me about an inch or two of movement, and lift. That's it. That's why I said above it takes literally 1 minute. Probably more like 30 seconds if I timed it.

For me, no need to get down on my hands and knees, no need to take out a basket, or take out the spray arm (I just spin the spray arm a quarter-turn so it's out of the way). Most of the time I don't need to wash the filter, but sometimes I do rinse it, about 30 seconds of work. Putting back is just bending, put the filter and cover on, push the cover handle an inch in the other direction, done. Are the newer models much more complicated then to clean the filter?

Ditto on the filter cleaning --easy peasy

Daryl the Miele techs suggested Cascade and not their own brand? I cut their tabs in half and am pleased. I used Cadcade for years but it began to cloud my glassware. I guess I rinsed my dishes too much so there wasn't enough food for the enzymes to consume. That said some folks here are recommending the Method tabs as an alternative good choice. They might be worth a trial.

The way it was demonstrated to me was more complicated than what you describe. I also can't reach it without getting down. I'm not sure if the filter can be pulled without pulling the arm because I haven't tried it that way - the arm appears to restrict the filter cover but maybe it doesn't if done at the right angle. We'll see. I'll try it.

Cleaning the Miele filter weekly seems considerably excessive. My dishwasher is a 12-years-old F&P DishDrawer ... which catch a lot of (undeserved, IMO) hate. It doesn't have a grinder, I check the filter maybe twice per year. I routinely get results like this, this, and this. Surely a Miele can do better, LOL.

I do not see much in those photos that would be either caught or ground by a filter or grinder, respectively. Agreed, however, that weekly cleaning of a filter seems excessive unless one is regularly putting plates full of salad and noodles into the machine without so much as a scrape.

My prior GE only had a filter, which I cleaned a few times per year. Our new Miele also has a filter, which I've yet to clean but experience much better results on the whole. I'll echo others' accolades that I've yet to have anything (plate, utensil, skillet, pot, etc.) come out less than sparkling despite cramming it full.

I cleaned my Bosch DW filter out for the first time after 3-4 months of use. Not too much stuff in it. I can't imagine needing to clean it out weekly, although I'm not sure what the manual recommended. It's definitely easy to take out without taking anything apart - I can't imagine the Miele being different but I didn't look into it.

Compumom - Yes, the Miele Techs recommended "Cascade powder" specifically, not the tabs or liquid. They didn't mention Miele's own brand. I know about it - I'm on the fence whether I will try it or not. I haven't heard of Method tabs, but I will check them out.

I find Method tabs clean as well as Finish Quantum (the gold standard). However, I throw a QF tab in occasionally if my Le Creuset enamel starts to discolor or if there's a stubborn tea stain in a mug. QF has some bleaching capacity lacking in Method.

I'm pretty sure Miele and Riedel have some sort of mutual advertising thing going on. Both companies endorse each other's brand on their websites. Riedel endorses Miele dishwashers and, in turn, Miele sometimes gives away Riedel glasses with select Miele dishwashers (at least here in Germany). That being said, Miele's Perfect Glass Care is really sophisticated - just make sure your water isn't too soft, as soft water can accelerate etching.

I, of course, agree with what everyone said about the filter: just ignore it for some time. I once loaded a bunch of plates with roughly five tablespoons of peas on them into my Bosch. Once the cycle was done, three peas were left - the rest got ground up by the pump as the machine drained. The other day: a spatula encrusted in cheese and spinach. Now, spinach is particularly notorious for being blown back onto dishes because it hardly dissolves during the wash. However: not a trace was left and every bit went down the drain.

After all, you put down a good amount of $$$ for that dishwasher. Now you can expext results!

If you want to see the filter working, take a look at this video from a educational children's TV show - just fast-forward to 7:30 minutes.

Just commenting on the DW detergent. You couldn't pay me to use Cascade powder in my Miele DW. I use Method Smarty Tabs, the no-scent version, available at Target. Most of the time I just use a half tab, but if my DW is very full, or the dishes are particularly greasy, I use an entire tab. A lot of the detergent's cleaning ability depends on your water hardness or softness.

Actually, I think that using rinse-aid is more important than the choice of detergent. I buy Jet Dry cause it's cheap, but I know many on this forum use the Miele brand version which is expensive. I've had no problem with the Jet Dry. (P.S. I learned on this forum that the Miele DW can be adjusted for the amount of rinse-aid dispensed per wash - it's a little dial on the dispenser tray. I had no idea about that for years.)

Daryl - congrats on your Miele, and enjoy - it's a wonderful machine. I agree with everyone else that the filter cleaning is simple, brief, and infrequent.

Alex Chicago - I cannot imagine putting my precious Le Creuset in the DW! I'm sure it's fine--the LC is indestructible--but for me mentally, it's akin to putting my La Perla in the washing machine LOL!

Miele and Riedel do definitively have a cross marketing thing going. The owners of Riedel, Klaus Riedel and his son Max, along with other Riedel company personnel, occasionally show up in the local design center in person to run wine tasting seminars (Riedel's US operations are based nearby). That said, Riedel makes amazing glasses and Miele DWs are engineered not to break them. I didn't get any free glassware with the dishwasher though.

Sahmmy -- Your La Perla in the washing machine! Ha! I get it, though. When I bought my first piece of All-Clad, man did I baby that thing -- only used wood or silicone utensils, hand-washed and scrubbed with BKF, and was almost sick the first time a mark (you can't really call them scratches since there's no perceptible groove) appeared on the cooking surface. Fast forward a few years and I'm sliding ingredients around with metal tongs, serving with metal spatulas, dragging across burner grates, etc. Now the surface is a mess of beautiful swirls -- almost artistic. The Le Creuset also suffers some abuse but I do take a little more care in how it's loaded into the dishwasher. If it shifts, gods only know what it could take in its path!!

We bought the Miele specifically to wash cookware as our existing machine did an acceptable job with dishes (though not really so good on flatware). We both work full-time and have 45-minute commutes on either end of our day, so anything to make getting dinner on the table and not resorting to take-out is a time-saver (and money-saver) in the long run. We have three raw-fed animals (2 cats and a dog) and go through an appreciable amount of plates and prepware every day, so coming up with enough for a full-ish load is never a problem. My morning routine is now to unload the dishwasher while the pets munch on their breakfast and I wait for the coffee to brew, reflecting on last night's meal and thinking of what to make tonight. I know some people take the same enjoyment out of handwashing cookware after a meal, which I completely understand.

As an aside to the discussion of DOs and DON'Ts for the dishwasher, I'll make a public claim to the near indestructibility of the Victorinox fibrox knives. I have some good chef knives that don't see the DW (about the only things, aside from bare cast iron), but I have a Victorinox that goes through almost daily. I'll be darned if that thing hasn't kept an edge as well or better than my Wusthof/Global knives that get handwashed and sheathed after every use.

Daryl - no free glasses for me, either. I suspect I didn't buy a fancy enough model to merit a gift :)

Thanks for the post on the Lumen, as that is the model that caught my eye for our upcoming remodel. Not much info on it on the forum yet. On the subject of detergent, in our old Miele DW (which by the way bit the dust at 12 years old) we used Cascade powder and Jet Dry or Ecover rinse aid, set on the lowest setting. Additionally, with scraping off "solids" from the plates, we probably cleaned out the filter every 3-6 months. (And no that was not relevant to the DW dying.) I wouldn't sweat that part too much.

Here's an example of such a promotion: http://www.mieleusa.com/product/General?PageName=RiedelPromo

I definitely didn't spend enough money to get glasses. ;-)

The Lumen seems to me to be positioned to go after the 'glassware' crowd. Of course, that is why I bought. It has the ultra flexible basket, which will accomodate even the largest Riedel glasses, better lighting than the Dimension, a couple more cycles, including an "Economy" (ultra long, slow) cycle. You can get it configured with the "Knock 2 Open" feature. If you have the completey hidden controls, you can skip the handle (I think) and if you knock on the dishwasher door, it opens. That's not available on the Dimension. We wanted the visible controls, though.

I agree that the Method Smarty tabs (half) really is the best to use right now. The original Miele tabs from 5 years ago worked great, but 4 years ago they changed them, still cleans OK, but makes a lot of suds. Most other brands leave a chemical smell. So I've stuck with Method for the past 4 years. I did try Seventh Generation packs a week ago, but plastic water cups started to have a smell to them, so went back to using the Method.

For rinse aid I do stick with the Miele brand, again as there is no chemical smell. I have the dispenser set to 1, between 1(lowest)-to-6(most) of rise aid to be dispensed. Setting to 3 or higher left glass felling oily, as there was too much rinse aid. Setting it down to 1 works just fine, and I get closer to 6-8 weeks before having to refill it.

Let me suggest you start your own thread as your question is apt to get lost at the end of this very long older thread on a different subject. Some websites discourage new postings when there are any existing threads which might somehow possibly arguably have something vaguely related to a new question. Gardenweb has the opposite culture. Here, we encourage new and specific postings. I think you will have better luck with responses with a new thread.

I bought the Lumen a few months ago. Although it was marketed for glassware, glassware and crystal have never came out well. There are always white marks on them, usually down the sides and almost always at the brim of the glass (always where the item rests lowest in the basket). The stainless flatware gets white marks, again, at the item rests lowest in the tray.

The techs have been out multiple times, the machine was replaced, tried all different amounts of the Miele tabs, Claro tabs, Somat powder, adding STPP, TSP. Still occurs.

Cascade boil out is the next product to try.

No one can figure it out. I must say Miele has done everything imaginable to help with the issue, but to no avail.

I know the post is very old but was wondering what cycle, detergent, rinse aid level, etc you are using for the crystal. And do you mix Riedel in with regular loads. Thank you.

Don't use TSP in a dishwasher. STPP is OK. TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) is NOT the same as STPP (Sodium TriPolyPhosphate). TSP generates a precipitate from the mineral content in hard water, which will cause residue on the dishware. STPP does not.

Cascade Boil-Out has phosophate (STPP), and also chlorine bleach.

Right now I am washing a couple lightly soiled dishes but mostly crystal, using China cycle with pre wash. I am trying crushed Miele tab (about 1/2 tsp) in the pre wash and 1 tsp citric acid in main compartment, no extra dry.

Whatever is going on here is occurring during the intermediate and or final rinse. After many tests, the residue is there regardless of soap amount, within reason. Both the Somat x5 and Miele RA (German and US versions) still leave the residue. Putting RA at 0 with or without detergent still leaves residue, just less. So it’s something going on with our water, I believe. Opening the door and spraying vinegar in during final rinse helps, but not pragmatic.

Our Anaheim water hardness ranges from 17-21 gpg and was measured by Miele tech as 21, so it’s set accordingly with RA at 2.

One other factor -water takes about 4 to 5 minutes to even get warm here on the 4th floor of our building, essentially a cold water fill. So as opposed to running the water prior to a cycle, I enabled the Heat Accumulator function. To make sure this wasn’t causing the residue, I have ran the machine with the feature enabled and not enabled; the Heat Accumulator didn’t seem to help or hurt the issue.

We have never had issues with our glassare with our now 4 year old Miele Lumen. We always wash our Riedel with regular loads - and we have a good deal of Riedel, which is why we got the Miele (Max Riedel came to the Miele Center near us and did an entire presentation which sold us). We only use Cascade powder. I have no idea if that makes a difference, because we've never used anything else. The only issue we have had is that, since the glasses are upside down in the dishwasher, water sometimes collects in the indentation in the base. Hard to fight that. We've never had marks of any kind on the 'bowls' of the Riedels or any other glassare. We use Jet-Dry as the rinse aid (cheaping out, but it works fine). Our water is currently hard, and while that has caused other problems in the house, it has not affected the washing of anything in the Miele. (We are about to install a water softener).

This is what I get more times than not. It wipes off pretty easily.

To me, that looks like dried on dissolved solids from the rinse cycle. Rinse aid helps. But for the last little droplet of water, it might not do the job. So, your goal should be getting rid of these dissolved solids. A water softener is likely your best bet. Does your dishwasher have a built-in softener? Have you cycled it recently?

If that doesn't do the job, then a whole-house charcoal filter would be another relatively cheap fix to look into.

Maybe, send your water into a lab to get a full analysis.

Other than that, here are the generic questions that I would ask anybody who has trouble with their dishwasher, but I think you already answered moth:

How hard is your water? Do you use the built-in water softener? Do you use rinse aid? Have you tried changing detergents? Have you use a dishwasher conditioner?

- Lumen purchased April/May and replaced early July by Miele

-our buildings water was measured at 21 gpg by the tech

-city says water is 17-21 gpg

-machine set to 21 gpg

- detergents tried: Miele tabs, Somat powder, Claro tabs, Bubble Bandit, Finish Quantum

-Rinse aid currently at 2ml, have tried very level 1-6 ml

-Rinse aids tried are Somat and Miele

Unfortunately, I rent here in a 5 story apartment building and cannot install a water softener. I was “lucky“ to have been allowed to purchase and have installed these new Mieles, dishwasher, washer, dryer. The ones the building provides are a disgrace.

I asked the superintendent if they were chemically altering the water here and he said no.

Strange, my neighbors with the building-provided 13 year old, entry level whirlpool plus the cascade platinum tabs I gave them, get better results with glassware.

The Lumen has a water-softener, doesn't it? Have you regenerated it recently? Can you tell a difference between before and after regeneration?

Yes it has the softener. It automatically regenerates about every 5 cycles.

Well, after using Cascade Boil Out for the last 5 or so loads, things are coming out 100 percent better. Nothing is looking like the pictures I posted. Everything is looking good, especially after repeated washes.

I just don’t understand why the Miele tabs etc didn’t work like this. I get that the Cascade has phosphates, but with the Lumen’s water softener and the specially formulated Miele tabs, I put off trying the boil out. Also, we were excited to use a detergent specifically designed for our machine.

I am assuming the water softener is working. The machine has been inspected by Miele techs, the salt level goes down with use, and it regenerates about every 5 cycles.

Sure wish I would have tried the boil out months ago. It would have saved hours of frustration on my behalf and hours of service calls. Ironically, at no point did they advise to change from their tabs.

Boil Out doesn't have enzymes (which are incompatible with chlorine bleach) so you'll probably find it doesn't work very well on some types of soils, particularly protein such as egg residue. Scrambled eggs microwaved in a coffee mug ... Boil Out fails ... but it does excellent on stains such as tea, coffee, and tomato.

Thx dadoes. Your posts here and in other discussions have been very helpful.

If we have protein laden loads is it ok to use the Miele tab and then switch back to boil out. Or would it take multiple washes to return those items and machine back to where I am now?

Also, I am curious what you are using these days in your machine.

I am using Boil Out, have been for 8 years. Year-ish ago I bought a small package of Cascade Platinum pods, found they cause excess sudsing. Impairs spray pressure and arm rotation speed so rarely use them after the initial try. Tried one again when I starting doing microwave scrambled eggs more frequently and it does a bang-up job on the egg residue compared to Boil Out but doesn't touch tea stains on my white plastic tea maker funnel and plastic pitchers.