I just scrolled up and saw your list of wants that wasn't showing up last night. Sorry I wasn't aware of all those when I drew up my suggestion.

FYI Regarding consulting a pro...Sophie, Live_Wire and Joe are a few of the pros that help out around here.

So you can see them now? I also wrote that my DH is a contractor and intends to do the majority of the work himself. The company he is currently working for does mostly flips and renovations, so he frequently goes into houses similar to ours and tears out the wall separating the kitchen from the living room and oftentimes comes home itching to do the same to our house.

After giving it some thought I feel like I'm more interested in being able to see the things I want to see than in hiding the things I don't want others seeing. We don't have company that often so cleaning up in preparation for visitors is something we're already used to doing.

If you would like to see examples of the scope of projects we have taken on and completed, here is a link to a post with some pictures of things we have done: Backyard Transformation

The reason I'm interesting in consulting with a pro is that I feel they may be more interested in what I want, not what they think is best for my space.

?? Designing a kitchen is quite different than landscaping due to functional issues that need to be addressed in a kitchen such as work flow, storage, etc. In my time at GW, we have been asked to help tweak numerous kitchens designed by professionals that weren't functional. A good KD will give you what you want that is also best for your space. Not all KD's are good. I have seen the collective hive mind here at GW vastly improve poorly designed kitchens.

That said, sometimes what someone wants wont' work for good reason. You might google Starcraft Home Builder's Thirty-One Illustrated Rules of Kitchen Design and study up to see if what you want is good design for your space. I think most of us end up making a compromise or two in our designs. Understanding the rules for good function and safety helps prioritize and determine where a compromise makes sense and when it doesn't.

Is it possible to move the slider next to the wall with the door to laundry/garage? Doing that would allow a nice L kitchen at the other end instead of the galley I put there in my last post.

Is your TV above your fireplace or maybe in a corner right now? I'm just thinking if you go to an island you'd lose a corner in the living room where your TV might be.

The tv is over the fireplace for now, although I would be open to moving it. I like the idea of having a seating area in front of the fireplace and have been wondering what it would be like to have the tv on the opposite wall instead.

Sorry to ask, but can you see my backyard post? It seems alright to me but I'm not sure if it's visible to anyone else.

"The reason I'm interesting in consulting with a pro is that I feel they may be more interested in what I want, not what they think is best for my space."

One of the responsibilities of being a kitchen professional is saving clients from themselves. If I believe a client's idea is bad enough, I'll quit. I've kicked customers out of their own yards and owners out of their own shops. I have an obligation to convince, sell if you will, my experience and rationale for why I want things done the way I want them done.

I'm going through something similar right now. I have a potential client who wants to price shop to avoid the thousands of dollars I'm insisting he spend on properly supporting his granite. Could I stick a leg under it and call it good for much less? Sure, but that leg's not getting my name on it in this half million dollar home. If I can't convince him that my expensive repair is the correct one and the best value (the builder should have done it), I've not done my job.

Yes, I see your yard post.

I garden for a living. I've had clients insist I plant roses & other sun-loving plants in their very, very shady yard. At some point, it is my responsibility to tell them: (a.) If I plant those plants, they will die. (b.) If I plant those plants and they die, it makes me look bad. And (c) I won't set myself up to do work that makes me look bad.

I would hope that a really good kitchen designer would say the same thing about non-functional designs. Sadly, all of us who have been on this forum have seen very bad, professional/paid for designs.

I honestly don't understand what is so unreasonable about my desires for my kitchen, I've tried to make it clear that it is my intention to provide the KD with my practical needs as well as stylistic wishes in the hope that they are able to synthesize them into a functional and attractive kitchen. The smallish budget is influenced by the opinions of my DH, who is a contractor and intends on doing much of the work himself to save on costs. I feel like we've been making good progress on improving our property, and so looking forward to the next project I was not expecting to receive such skepticism about our ability to complete it.

jutsuri - I haven't seen anyone call what you want unreasonable, or implied that you're not capable. What I have seen is you not really acknowledging the expertise and help that is being generously offered to you on this very forum.

I apologize for seeming ungrateful, I hit the 'say thank you' button for the posts I found most helpful. I just felt like I put a lot of effort into making my statement and I found many of the responses quite belittling. My statements about wanting to consult with a pro (in person) were mainly because my previous experience taking that route resulted in a pleasant and productive experience.

Coming in late here, but, first, I hope you'll remember that this is the internet, and everyone isn't always kind; however, that doesn't mean you can't learn something! Having said that, here are my preliminary thoughts:

- You want to get rid of the wall.

- You want to keep the sink where it is.

- You want to keep the sliding glass door.

- You didn't say so, but I assume the laundry room door is "stuck" where it is.

- You don't like galley kitchens.

The problem is that these ideas -- in this space -- don't play well together. If you keep the sink where it is, the kitchen has to stay in its present location ... which means the laundry room continues to be an obstacle ... which means you're pretty much stuck with a galley kitchen. If you're going to keep the sliding glass door, you can't place kitchen items in that spot.

Plus, you say you intend to live in this house about ten years -- that's a long time, but it's not forever. If I were in your shoes, I'd want to stay moderate in my spending, and that hints towards keeping the rooms roughly in their present locations.

How do you feel about wall + island kitchens? They're a modification of galley kitchens ... but kind of updated. None of these are exactly like your spot, but perhaps they'll inspire you:

- It works with your sink-window, your laundry door, and retains your dining room table by the sliding glass door.

- All the cabinets are plain, straight runs; thus, they're the cheapest possible cabinets.

- Ditto for your countertops.

- It doesn't interrupt your current living room, but it allows interaction between the kitchen and living room.

Thank you for the very helpful comment, I was trying not to be thin skinned but started to get frustrated when it seemed like many people had no interest in actually reading what I had written about what I wanted.

Your examples of wall + island kitchens are exactly what I was hoping for, I didn't realize that they are galley kitchens - in my mind a galley kitchen is inextricably linked to being penned in by two walls. I particularly like the last example, change the colors and that would be very much like the kitchen I have been dreaming of.

The laundry room door can be shifted towards the fireplace up to 4', it would take some work but would be worth it to get the kitchen we really want. I would rather move the laundry room door than the sliding glass door, and DH has also brought up the possibility of turning it into a pocket door.

People are reading what you want and trying to help. What they're trying to save you is thousands of dollars wasted while you go through KDs.

From my own personal experience with my remodel, a good KD is hard to find. I interviewed 6 KDs and frankly, the info that I gathered from reading GW made me more savvy than 5 of the 6. They tended to focus on pretty vs functionality.

By the time, I found the good KD, I only needed a review and his fee was $250/hr. His regular fee for a plan is $6000.

You need to understand the pros and cons of your kitchen first and be able to screen a KD within 5-10 minutes so that you don't waste their time if it's not a good match.

Handing a KD 7 pages of wants and inspiration will be a fee per hour quote that you end up paying thru the nose for with bad results.

I'd be suprised if a pocket door to a garage is code. Doesn't it need to be fire-rated with a knob type of latch?

I expected that a good KD wouldn't be easy to find, which is part of the reason I was wondering if it might not be too early to start looking for one. I spent hours reading how-to's about kitchen design and playing with graph paper and cutouts before deciding that a professional would be more likely to find the best solution for the problems presented by our house.

Not to be overly defensive, but as to the 7 pages - the first 3 are about how we use the kitchen and what we do and do not like about it. There is one paragraph about inspiration and style, and the list of wants includes many small things that stand out to me simply because I don't have them now - like a place for my aprons and cookbooks to go. The intention was to make it as easy as possible for a KD to understand our situation so they can give us a clear idea of what they think is best.

I don't know about the code for doors into garages, but does the fact that it goes into a sealed laundry room with a door that has a knob make any difference? One corner of the garage is walled off to be a laundry room and has an exterior-type door separating it from the rest of the garage.

"...I've tried to make it clear that it is my intention to provide the KD with my practical needs as well as stylistic wishes in the hope that they are able to synthesize them into a functional and attractive kitchen."

jutsuri:

Yours is a reasonable approach, but remember that a good professional will not always tell you what you want to hear. You have to learn to trust.

I've been happily married for 34 years. Why? Because my wife won't put up with any of my crap. This is the relationship you want with your KD.

Was the laundry room a legally permitted and inspected addition?

The big design problem with open concept is that walls are needed more than you think they are. Especially in a kitchen. You have a refrigerator that needs a wall. You have additional storage needs that need a wall. And you want to remove the wall that houses those things without truly thinking of the consequences of that action to both the kitchen and surrounding space. It's not all HGTV happy slappy finally not whiny millenials with their new Quartz Counters and roses and sugar sweet smiles for the camera. It's "OMG I don't have any wall cabinets to store anything! Now what do I do?"

Sure, you can find a KD to rubber stamp your ideas and not offer pushback to make you really think about your ideas, but that isn't what you need here. You need a true design professional with some backbone to challenge you. Only I get the idea that you don't want to really be challenged about your ideas. I find that unfortunate. Better design comes from collaboration than dictation.

I'm trying not to be intractable, but I feel like there should be a middle ground between having everything I want and giving up that which is most important to me. The top three things that I don't like about my kitchen are the wall, the fact that the counters are 6 feet apart, and that there is a lot of traffic funneled through it. I was hoping for some creative suggestions for how to deal with that problem, rather than being told that I need to give up on having what I want and settle for a kitchen that is much like the one I currently hate. I feel like a kitchen renovation is only worth doing if it's done right, and if that takes waiting another year and upping the budget to $60,000 then that's what I'll do.

I have been capable of compromise in the past; we are currently in the middle of doing the front yard in a modern style with straight lines and 90 degree angles. I really wanted a romantic cottage garden with meandering paths and curved beds, but I bowed to the greater wisdom of the LA.

FWIW the laundry room was built by the previous owners and may not have been permitted, but the inspectors let it pass when they came to sign off on the addition that DH built for his workshop.

I don't think you can have everything you want because your space is too small. Even if you turned your entire living space into a kitchen you'd still have to at least compromise. You basically have a 10x12 room with a door that needs to be dealt with. That is a challenge considering what I have read of your needs and wants. Do you want to add on to this house maybe?

ETA: The pictures of open galleys above are lovely, but did you notice they have no windows on the back wall? The fridge and pantry and range exhause have to go on a wall somewhere. If you have an island and get rid of that wall, the only place you can put those three things are on the back wall (eliminating a kitchen window) and maybe a bit of perpendicular wall.

You didn't answer my question about moving the slider so I don't know if this would work for you or not. It's rough and needs tweaking but just trying to find something that floats your boat enough to work on in more detail.

With a peninsula:

With an island:

The type of island MrsPete showed you. This is the only one that would be possible at the other end of the kitchen without moving the slider but it would be more crowded and you would have less wall space as your slider doesn't currently go all the way into the corner as I've moved it to.

Anyway, if you like any of these ideas, they might be base to work with to try to get all the things you want. I'm skeptical it's possible in that size of a space, however. I would recommend not having wall ovens and using range instead to free up some counter space.

I'm positive that I can't have everything I want, I'm just trying to stand my ground for the things that I care most about. Perhaps I should have stated clearly that loosing the wall is more important than gaining storage. I am also interested in the idea of expanding out of the kitchen proper to store rarely used items - like into built in cabinetry and bookshelves around the fireplace. Right now I have my ice cream maker in my office and all the canning stuff is in the hallway closet, just having things a bit closer to the kitchen would be a great improvement.

If we did a wall+island kitchen we would put the range in the island with a downdraft vent. I was hoping we could find a spot for the fridge on either the back wall or the fireplace wall, or the wall by the slider - anywhere but next to the front door or where it is now, really. I'm not sure what it would look like to have the fridge between the sink and the sliding door, or if it would be too inconvenient to have it in the corner where the wall oven is now. Or if we could even reorient the kitchen to be against another wall entirely; I have seen examples of kitchens with fireplaces in them, and have wondered if that could possibly work for us. Like I said above, I want to explore every available option before settling for something too much like what we have now.

funkycamper - sorry for not answering, I had mentioned a few posts earlier that we'd rather not move the slider. We built the deck to work with the slider where it is, and if we moved it to the north wall the view would be negatively impacted.

It's becoming clear to me that my mission statement is not good enough, so I have used all of your input to refine it.

If anyone wants to put any more time into my problem, please review my newly organized list and let me know if it makes any difference to how you feel.

Must-Have:

Remove Wall.

Improve layout, functionality, and style.

Change traffic pattern to garage/laundry room door.

4 feet between counters instead of 6.

Durable and easy-to-care-for surfaces and finishes.

At least one run of countertop that is 5 feet or longer.

A dishwasher.

A combined range instead of separate cooktop and wall oven.

Coffee Station.

Stainless steel undermount sink.

Spot to hang hand towel.

Spot to hang aprons.

Shelf for cookbooks.

Task lighting.

Designated pet food storage and pet bowl areas.

Spots for compost, garbage, and recycling.

Really Want:

Baking Station*

*Space for Kitchen-Aid mixer on counter.

*Plenty of room to spread out and work.

*Space for baking tools, mixing bowls, bakeware, and ingredients.

*Open and closed shelving.

*Attractive containers for different types of flour and other staples.

*A spot for the cookbook to be open and easily viewable.

Wood, cork, or bamboo flooring.

More counter space.

More storage.

High quality but compact appliances that are ‘green.’

Microwave drawer.

Pull-out pantry.

Spice drawer.

Two-tiered island.

Pendant lights over island bar

A bit more storage for cups and dishes, a lot more storage for cookware, small appliances, and food.

In our Dreams:

Custom wood cabinets.

Granite counters.

Live-edge slab for island bar, matching live-edge wood for outdoor bar and fireplace mantle.

Larger kitchen window.

A way to have a dining area only when it’s needed, and open space most of the time.

An outdoor room on the deck that matches the style of the new kitchen.

Redesign living room to go with the new kitchen.

I have many of the same wishes as you do. I want tons of space, more windows for bird watching, open to the DR and LR, open shelves with pretty containers, deck to be part of the kitchen, etc, etc, etc. Instead of sliding doors, we have a nook that can't be relocated. So, my kitchen layout plan is far less than perfect, but gets me almost everything I want. It includes moving the refrigerator the wall next to the nook. For you, that would be the wall next to the sliding doors.

I also keep my bird food in tin trash cans on the deck. Works perfectly.

Thanks Wendy, that makes me feel much better. I know I can't have the perfect kitchen and that what is best for me might be far less than ideal for someone else, but I don't think that means I have to give up on what is most important to me.

About the bird food, keeping it on the deck would be far more convenient than in the shed. I assume you use the kind of metal bin that has a lid that can be clamped down? I'll be heading out to get one of those today.

When you say you want dining space only when needed, how do you envision that?

Are we eliminating a dining room altogether? You could, I suppose. If you're home is a small standard type of 3 bedroom ranch, you could turn that bedroom that shares a wall with the living room into a flex space with French doors to the living room. That could then be used as a dining room if someone in the future wanted to.

if you need to keep a dining area in the existing living space, how many seated diners does it need to accommodate?

J! I haven't seen you in a while. So glad to read your comment. I agree with you 100% regarding "open concept" --especially in small spaces-- and you explained the compromises well.

Jillius - Thanks! I have lived with an open concept kitchen before and I loved it. It wasn't perfect, but so much better than what I have now. I actually go back to that kitchen, which is my Moms' and just down the road, whenever I have a serious cooking project.

1. About the cooking smells, I have heard that downdraft ventilation is not the best but feel like it's still probably better than what we have now. I would love to put the stove against a wall but I don't know that we can make that work with our layout. I do like the look of many of the new ventilation hoods that I've seen, but DH is adamantly opposed to having anything interrupt the sight line once the wall is gone. As a last resort we have good weather most of the year and because of the windows, doors, and prevailing winds the house airs out quickly - something we cherish in the heat of summer since we don't have AC.

2. One of the things I like most about my Moms' open kitchen is the ablity to hear the tv and converse with those who are watching it. My DH isn't irritated by the sounds of cooking, rather he is irritated that one or the other of us has to leave what we are doing and walk into the other room in order to be understood. You know that commercial with the lady asking for a mug who gets a hug? Remove the child and that is us.

3. I also work from home, and do tend to take any opportunity to procrastinate available. But I also do my best to wash any dishes as they are dirtied, and since we don't have a dishwasher they dry in a rack on the countertop so I'm used to seeing dishes in some state of being washed at all times. I consider it a blessing that neither myself nor my DH are neatniks, we team up to tidy the house once a week and deep clean once a month and other than that we are usually happy to live in a bit of disarray.

4. DH and I each have our own office, plus he has his workshop and I have my garden so we do tend to have our own places to be entertained. He's more of a tv watcher than I am, and has a second tv in his workshop if he wants to watch something in private.

benjesbride - What we have now is really a breakfast nook not an actual dining room, I would prefer to have more useful space with the ability to set up a breakfast nook or small dining table only when it's needed. I was imagining one of those round tables with folding sides, so that it can be skinny and not take much room most of the time. The chairs will probably have to be stored in another room, 4 to 6 would be plenty. I think an 8 guest party would be a strain to do inside our house, and I don't plan on ever having a large holiday gathering here. Moms' house has already been designated the spot for Christmas and Thanksgiving, I just want to be able to host small and casual parties.

Here's take two. The compromise is reducing the slider to a swinging full-lite door. Assuming the right side of your sliding glass door is the side that opens, this change should work with your deck.

My mom has a downdraft range. I'm morally opposed to putting one in a plan unless it's structurally impossible to exhaust any other way :-)

I figured the counter above the microwave, next to the fridge would be your coffee station.

I would not plan for a 42" high, 12" deep bar height counter to eat at. No one actually sits at those things and space in your home is too precious. I'd just have the cabinet maker put like a 6" cap on it. Then you can push a gate leg table up against it that can be expanded when you have company. The "island" is all counter, so that can be used as a buffet if that's your entertaining style.

For the record. I really don't like permanently killing the dining area.

I like that one, I think that kitchen could work for me. I realize that nixing the dining area is unconventional, but I think it would be the best thing for us. I can dream, right? ;)

Yes, that layout is very similar to what I have planned. Different, but the same idea.

I didn't see your post back there, Jutsuri. We use the old style tin can with a bungee cord running through the handles. From can handle, over the lid through lid handle, to the other can handle.

@benjesbride wrote: "My mom has a downdraft range. I'm morally opposed to putting one in..."

HILARIOUS!

Jutsuri, about your requirement that the aisle in the kitchen be reduced from six feet to four feet. I notice your range and sink are currently on opposite sides of the aisle. Is this the main reason you want the aisle reduced?

When the sink and range are together on a continuous run of counter as in Benje's suggestion, you don't do much running back and forth across the aisle (if any). The main cook sets up on that side and preps (with the sink) and cooks (with the range) without really moving around much again.

A lot of people remodel specifically to get the range and sink on the same side because there is so much less need to run back and forth across the aisle carrying dripping things/boiling water and crossing paths with everyone else in the kitchen.

Getting the range and sink on the same side would also work especially well for you because it would get your range on an exterior wall, which takes care of venting issues in an open layout.

However, if you go with that plan, you may want to keep the wide aisle you do have now and arrange the other side of the aisle (the island) as a secondary work station with a long counter and a prep sink so a second cook has enough room to work there without bumping butts/knocking into the primary cook working on the other side of the aisle. Or so people passing through the kitchen can pass behind the cook without being too much in the way.

Typically, a more narrow aisle is good for a one cook situation and bad for a multiple cooks/passersby situation. Multiple people just need more room to move around.

Since you currently have only one cook in your kitchen at a time, I'm just making sure you aren't applying something that bugged you as one cook (a too-wide aisle) that would actually be a boon in a two-cook kitchen (a wide enough aisle), assuming the rest of the kitchen was actually set up to better allow two people to work simultaneously (with thoughtfully defined and separated work/snack/cleanup zones).

I would strongly suggest you mock up your intended aisle with cardboard boxes (not tape on the floor -- use 3D objects with accurate bulk to simulate the cabinets) and practice cooking with your husband in there with you, also practicing cleaning or cooking or snacking or doing whatever he'd be likely to come in and do simultaneously with you.

You may solidify your preference for a 48" aisle or reconsider and go wider, by either way, it makes you feel very sure about your decision.

I practically built my entire kitchen out of boxes when I was planning, and it was totally ridiculous and very helpful. :)

I don't see a problem with this kitchen's size. No, it won't be a big kitchen, and since it's a 10-year house/future rental, I don't think the OP wants to make it a luxury kitchen, but consider:

Here's what we're starting with: a 21x26' box -- I'm assuming the windows and doors must stay in their current locations because changing them is pretty expensive:

Looking at cabinet dimensions:

That's the refrigerator in the corner ... sink centered under the window ... dishwasher next to it ... two sets of drawer stacks ... and three upper cabinets. The negatives: The refrigerator is in the corner, not ideal ... and you only have four upper cabinets total.

The island is 7 1/2' x 36" deep ... on one side a slide-in range (slide-in because it'll look better in the island; yes, it's more expensive than a plain range, but it's not as expensive as a separate cooktop and oven) ... and two drawer stacks ... on the back side, three 30"x12"x42" cabinets, which are high enough to block out kitchen mess. The negative: You've either got to go with a downdraft vent OR a fairly expensive free-standing hood. This island can be "cobbled together with cabinets:

I did make the work aisle 5' wide ... but you could downsize it to 4' if you like. This would allow you to go to 24" for the "back side" of the island, if you like.

In the dining room, I inserted a 60"x30" banquette flanked by two 36" wide pantry cabinets (or they could be open bookshelves) ... the table is 42" round, which will seat four people ... and doesn't disturb the door. Pictures -- yeah, these both have great windows above the table, but artwork would work too -- you could make one of these 36" cabinets into a small office:

This one's way bigger, but I like the open shelves /pop of blue -- you could do all sorts of things with the side cabinets:

Pretend this range is a slide-in and doesn't have the "back piece".

It'll work, it just puts the sink and range across the aisle from each other and requires a downdraft or a ceiling exhaust. She also wants bigger windows to the back garden, a 5 ft long counter for baking. And a coffee station area.

I have no problem with the sink and range across from one another.

Bigger windows could be had, albeit at the expense of the already-skimpy upper cabinets.

A coffee station could fit into one of the pantries flanking the table, AND that would keep a beverage-seeker out of the cook's way.

A 60" baking counter probably isn't in the works for a kitchen this size. Options: Store baking items in one of the pantries and use the table as a baking surface. She's probably not baking AND cooking at the same time ... so choose a flat-surface range and use it as part of the counter top. Or, bump the range all the way to one end of the island, and that leaves an uninterrupted 60" of counter top ... though the range'd look better centered.

Ventilation for the range is a legitimate problem, as I mentioned.

Jillius - You hit the nail on the head; the exact reason I want the aisle narrowed is the 'need to run back and forth across the aisle carrying dripping things/boiling water and crossing paths with everyone else in the kitchen' because of the sink and range being opposite each other. When I've got multiple things cooking it feels like a very long distance, and then dodging someone who's trying to walk through the kitchen at the same time just adds frustration. I would love to have both the sink and range on the same wall, and in that case I might prefer to have a wider aisle, but only if it doesn't come at the cost of removing the entire wall between the kitchen and living room.

mrspete - I would love to have that kitchen. I think the pros and cons fit my wants and needs quite well. I currently set up to bake on the kitchen table, it's actually used for baking far more often than eating - in the 6 years we've been living in this house we have hosted 2 dinner parties using that dining room table. I wouldn't mind having my baking station be on a table instead of a counter, although counters tend to be a bit easier to clean off in the end.

benjesbride - I might be a bit inured to bad ventilation because of the history of kitchens I've used. I went from a 70's era downdraft that did little more than make noise, to a house that literally had no ventilation above the range at all (eek!), to a house that had a microwave vent hood, to my current house which has a recirculating vent hood. I think I've just come to accept that when things get smokey in the kitchen I have to open up the windows in the house. Having something better would be nice, but not of it comes at the cost of removing that wall.

What I'm hearing loud and clear is that removal of the wall is Priority #1. You may not get everything you want, but don't let go of that.

I understand your desire for a more narrow kitchen (though it seems counter-intuitive. My galley kitchen has a 6 1/2' aisle, and the two sides do not work together as a team. Everything's a step or two too far apart.

I might be misunderstanding your most recent comments:

"I might prefer to have a wider aisle, but only if it doesn't come at the cost of removing the entire wall between the kitchen and living room."

"Having something better would be nice, but not of it comes at the cost of removing that wall."

I thought you were insisting on removing the wall between the kitchen and the living room. Putting a range on the exterior wall doesn't necessarily impact the kitchen/living wall either way.

My last house was a corridor kitchen from dining area to garage. Very similar to yours. We renovated before I learned of Gardenweb, of course, and I focused our funds on all kinds of things other than getting the sink and range on the same blasted run of counters. I now realize that if I just would've moved the range over to the sink wall I probably wouldn't have hated my 9'6" wide corridor kitchen nearly as much.

I still think the first plan I posted ticks all the boxes without annihilating the dining room and looking like a flip. Flips around here always remove that wall between kitchen and living and stick a downdraft where the range is. Buyers must love it, but to me it just looks cheap.

I was just trying to stay that if it's an either or situation, I choose removal of the wall.

I want to annihilate the dining room, and I honestly don't mind if it looks like a flip. DH works on flips for a living and he likes the kitchens he installs after removing the wall.

So, explain why a pass through wouldn't work to give you more of a connection to the other room?

I've lived with a pass through kitchen before, and I didn't like it very much. It did help to open the space but I still had to duck or crane my neck to be seen or heard.

The other reason I would prefer an island is that it would create a place to sit that would make the best use of the views out of the windows. Right now I have to sit on the back of the couch or the fireplace hearth to look at my garden, and I would love to see that change.

Why not just sit at the dining table to enjoy your garden?

42 inch bar seating truly is not comfortable for any length of time.

I think you have hit a point in this discussion where it would make sense to start a new thread. The current title is misleading now for the direction the thread has gone (layout advice) and won't attract as much of the help you now seem to need (from the layout enthusiasts). Plus even if the layout people found their way here, the information they need to make suggestions is now scattered across many comments.

I suggest you do this:

1) Start a new thread. Ask specifically for layout suggestions/help in the title of this new one. You don't need to be discussing the nitty gritty of lighting/finishes till after you have decided on the layout that will work for you. Asking for layout help will attract the layout gurus. Asking for lighting or finishes help later in a different thread will get the lighting or decor gurus. (Involve a KD later when you have exhausted the free help here.)

2) In your new layout help thread, post a floor plan of the entire floor the kitchen is on (not just the living and kitchen, but also every room on this whole floor and the garage/laundry too). It helps us more than you can imagine to see the kitchen fully in the context of the rest of the house. It is fine to hand draw it, same as the other plans you already posted.

There is no such thing as too much information or detail when it comes to this floor plan. Indicate on the plan where the best views are. Mark where the windows are, how wide, and how far off the ground. Indicate doorways. All of it. Whatever is written on this plan will be absorbed and understood FAR more than anything you type in your comments.

This floor plan should be on graph paper and to scale where one square = 1 square foot.

3) Post pictures of the interior of your kitchen/living area, particularly of things that are difficult to see on the plan -- the shape of the fireplace, the view you want to make the most of.

There is no such thing as too many pictures.

The better we understand your space, the better and more relevant (and more fervent) the help you will receive. And visuals are a million times more helpful to our understanding than anything else.

4) Write these things (more or less) in the new thread:

__________________________________

Title: Please help - kitchen layout!

Post:

The situation:

• we are remodeling our soon-to-be-open-plan kitchen/dining/living room (we're taking down the wall between the kitchen and living room)
• we are couple with one dog (no kids and no plans for them)
• husband is a contractor and will be doing the majority of the work
• budget is $40,000-$60,000, plus contingency fund
• we like to cook/make snacks together and to entertain small groups (4-6 people) -- both inside and out on the deck
• I also bake often and want to start canning
• we will live here for ten more years and then buy another house and rent out this house

Primary goals for the remodel:

• ability to have two cooks/snackers in the kitchen at once
• maximize view/windows towards the deck -- we have wild bird feeders out there and enjoy watching the birds from our current slider
• make the kitchen very open to the living room (we've had that open layout before and loved the easy chatting between those rooms)
• we do not use the dining table unless entertaining (on normal days, we eat in front of the TV), so we would prefer a plan where the dining table can be put away or repurposed in between parties and the space used for something else day-to-day
• desired big appliances: dishwasher, range, and fridge (already bought the fridge -- it is a 36" counter depth French door) --> I made these numbers/details up. Please provide the real ones.
• places for these frequently-used small appliances: coffee maker, toaster, Kitchen Aid mixer
• area for pet food/bowls
• pantry storage

Like-to-haves:

• baking center with spot for KitchenAid mixer to live on the counter
• not moving the slider -- it works well with the deck now and would be a pain to change
• cookbook storage (does this have to be in the kitchen, or could it be in the living room?)
• small appliance storage
• sink and range on the same run of counter (not across the aisle from each other)
• microwave drawer
• seating facing the view towards the deck

Here is an awesome and thorough to-scale floor plan on graph paper of the entire floor with everything and its grandmother indicated and labeled:

[Image]

Here are 12,000 pictures of the inside of my home from every angle:

[Images]

Here is a picture of my dog:

[Image]

For more information here is a link to my previous thread:

[link]

_____________________

That's all the information we need to start making good suggestions, and providing more info. than that just makes it harder for people to remember the important stuff and also can sometimes constrict creativity. Talking more broadly about your goals rather than your conclusions allows people to surprise you with solutions you may never have considered.

Also, part of good kitchen layout design is routing non-kitchen traffic away from the kitchen work zones, providing logical locations for trash/compost/recycling, maximizing continuous lengths of counter space where they are most useful, maximizing storage (especially point-of-use storage), making the aisle width appropriate for the kitchen as designed, making things more functional, etc. So you don't have to ask for any of those things specifically. We will make sure our designs have those features to the best of our ability from the get-go. (Any good KD would as well.)

What I have posted in bullets above are the parts of your kitchen design that are not automatic for us. The condensed, pertinent information to a layout designer.

You'll notice none of the lighting or finishes info. is included because those considerations mostly come later after your floor plan is set.

I am not a super designer, but can the frig be right up to a long wall like that? Would the door open enough to allow the shelves to pull out?

So, since the other half is in construction, where is he in this planning? Why haven't you and he already gotten this nailed down since he has experience? Are you on the same page at all about this? What is his idea of a budget for the remodel? How much money is he OK with throwing away since you don't plan to spend that much more time in the home? Remodels all cost more than they add back in ''value''. 70% would be an extremely good return. But you only realize that when you sell. In the meantime, it's just a 100K expense. What are his views on spending just for the enjoyment of the home?

FYI, full stoppage of discussion red flags #4 and #5 & #6 for any experienced pro is zero visibility of a spouse, and the words" my spouse is in construction but hasn't done this project'', and the fact that you aren't planning to spend but a few more years in the home. Red flags #1 and #2 & #3 are the pages of disorganized notes with directly opposite unachievable goals, and a huge lead time to beginning the project, an a budget that is pretty light for those pages of wants.

I wonder if Buehl could add Jillius' example post above to the New to Kitchens? thread. It's a fantastic summation.