I probably can't respond accurately to the size question because Sally is a BIG girl here in SoCal. I've dealt with her grown up and over a patio cover. I have a current client who has a large iron pergola in her garden with six Sally Holmes grown up and over it. They all meet in the center. The diameter is easily ten feet with easily eight feet of height. I have two on a five foot block wall in Old Orchard, Valencia, just north of here. She fills the wall and shoots out another four to six feet above that. I grew it own root many years ago in my windy, old Newhall garden where I whacked her back to about four feet each spring. By fall, she was back to seven feet freestanding. Being own root and grown in full sun with frequent, heavy winds, she bulked up and stayed shorter than she will if given partial shade (all roses grow TO the light, causing them to elongate) and/or support. Supporting the canes permits them to lengthen at the expense of thickening, when they will be better able to support themselves. NO, Sally Holmes is NOT thornless, nor, in my experience, is she "lightly thorned". Hers are sharp and hooked and she'll rip the heck out of you if you're not careful. The only down side to grooming her is how she'll render flesh from bone if not treated tenderly! She doesn't like being man-handled and she has no qualms about making her displeasure WELL known! Had I room for her at home, she'd be gracing my weed patch. As it is, I have to satisfy myself with testing a seedling of Sally Holmes I've raised. Her preliminary name is "Yellow Sally". Kim Here is a link that might be useful: Yellow Sally

If you don't mind once-bloomers, I'd go for albas, albas, albas. Their foliage is so beautiful, and most set hips once they mature. I love their large, arching growth. Alba Maxima, Blanche de Beligique (few hips on this one), and Great Maiden's Blush are our best. Pompom Blanc Parfait's flowers are too small for the size of the plant. Celestial has not thrived for us. In bloom, no rose is more refined and fragrant. I'm also crazy about eglantine, which has wonderful hips, great apple scent in the foliage, sweet pink flowers in spring, and a great set of backstories. I can talk for ten minutes about this rose on our tours, and sometimes do. Damasks may not be disease-resistant for you, but in my dream line-up of big shrubs, I'd have to have one Autumn Damask and just accept its sparse, lanky growth. Judicious pruning would help, I'm sure. We grow a mossed, white sport - Quatre Saisson Blanc Mousseux - that is really gorgeous. Many of the Hybrid Musks will grow to big arching shrubs - Lyda Rose is terrific, but we also grow Pax, Penelope, Buff Beauty and others in big mounds. Another terrific rose that can get big is Blush Noisette. Again, it's more of a mound than a free-standing shrub. Yes, many of the teas, at least here in California, will build and build into 8 feet or higher piles of constant bloom. We have a White Maman Cochet that is simply fabulous. I don't know how big they'll get for you. I wouldn't in good conscience recommend Mermaid, although I'll bet that Jeri's sighting of that one was indeed remarkable. I can't imagine dealing with its armature. Would Susan Louise be hardy enough for your climate? I've often thought about putting it at the back of my border. It's a bit gawky, but reblooms well with the most astonishing large, pointed buds. There are so many choices. I envy you and Sammy for making plans to plant. I'm SPing and adding a few roses at a time at home and in the cemetery, not nearly so much fun! Anita

Sally Holmes is not classed as a classic shrub. It is classed as a modern shrub. All the ARS publications show it that way. The CRL also shows S as the official class. The HMsk in parenthesis simply means the editor is of the opinion it should be called a HMsk, but it is officially a modern shrub. If you look through any of the ARS publications you will see either an S after a shrub name, which means it is a modern shrub, or one of the classes such as HMsk, HRg, HMoy or HKor which shows it is a classic shrub. If the rose doesn't have one of the four classic shrub designations listed above after its name, it is not a classic shrub. You should always rely upon ARS publications for this information, since they are the official source. The CRL is only an official source if none of the ARS publications list a given rose. A species rose such as R. roxburghii cannot be entered in two classes, Species and OGR, if the show is following ARS show rules. If the Species class is part of the show, all species roses must be entered there. If there is no separate species class, then it can be entered in the appropriate OGR class (look for the date of the species rose to see which class it should be entered in - there are some with dates after 1867). At least that is the way it is supposed to work according to ARS Rules and Guidelines. Shows should not be allowing species roses to be entered in the Dowager and Victorian classes if they have a species class.

I have grown 'Pierre de Ronsard' (aka Eden) both as a shrub and as a climber. If you treat it as a shrub for a while it seems to give up on the whole idea of climbing. I'm liking it as climber better, though both are fine. There is actually more than one rose named 'Eden'. Perhaps this is the point of confusion. I have not had any problems with this PdR/Eden burning in the full sun, which is where I grow it. I am in zone 9b/Sunset 16, SF Bay area. It does get rust in the fall. I deal with it. This is one of the three roses that my DH Tom has told me are favorites of his, and I plan to grow them indefinitely. (The other two are 'Leander' and 'Tuscany Superb', all three very different roses.) Rosefolly