I highly recommend the Gritty or the 5-1-1 for citrus in California - in fact, these are the only two mixes that I use for my citrus. Granted, I'm in the north, but we haven't gotten squat for rain. We even missed out on those epic monsoon rains that you southern Californians "enjoyed" this Summer.

Let us also remember that these mix recipes are meant to be tailored to the specific growing conditions of the individual grower/trees. The Gritty Mix can certainly be tinkered with to judiciously increase moisture retention, and the pot itself can be mulched with bark if the weather is especially unforgiving. One could even utilize a drip-tray, which I have done on occasion (thought mostly to rehydrate a container I'd neglected).

The key is proper and consistent watering. Once the mix is fully hydrated, just keep up with the watering and I think you'll find that the mix will go 2 - 4 days depending on container size, plant size, time of season, and ambient temperatures.

Josh

tapla is certainly correct concerning the use of pine as an ingredient in the manufacture of a medium for container culture. Pine is one of the ingredients most used world wide for this purpose. It does not break down rapidly, but is stable long lasting ingredient which gives excellent results. -Silica

Pine is ambiguous. Pine bark has the quality you mentioned. Pine wood doesn't.

Sorry al but I've got one more question. After buying turface at John Deere, having to return it because they gave me not all sport and sifting a bag I realize they for the second time did not give me all sport but all sport pro. What's the difference in size between the two?

For use in container media, I'm only familiar with Turface MVP or Allsport, which are the same product with a different name - one for Profile Corp, the other for John Deere Landscapes; and Pro League, which is also a calcined clay product, but finer than MVP or Allsport and not suited for use in the gritty mix. It would make a good addition to media used to fill raised beds, however.

Al

Well it turns out that I got screwed again and all sport pro is pro league. Just wasted over $60 on 3 bags.

Can I sift like normal and mix in one bag that's already open with 3 bags of mvp?

There may be some differences in which Turface product is provided in different areas. My experience in SoCal from John Deere Landscapes and Ewing irrigation is that Turface AVP has some large particles and some dust. If you screen it according to the suggestion of 1/8" - 1/10" particle size you will get a small amount that is too big and a pretty decent percentage that is too small. Pro League is much more consistent is size with virtually no dust and no large pieces. However, it is just a bit smaller than the suggested size with most of it 1/12" - 1/10" size. It has almost no dust. I find it works very well for me but according to Al's formula it will have some perched water. Very little in my experience. As you found, it is more expensive than AVP.

I'm using Pro League with no screening but I'm looking for a bit more water retention than actual gritty mix. I've played with measuring the perched water in a transparent cup at about 1/2" but either use actual screened media with a particle size around 1/8" for the bottom couple of inches or use a porous terracotta pot in my dry climate.

I've sifted over screen but I can't find mvp or all sport. John Deere are liars. Flat out liars. Yeah we have it yeah it's this price. Get there and they tried to swap it. Then doubled the price and still didn't give me what I asked. I specifically said all sport. Specifically said I can't use anything else. Should have checked the bag again. Already had to return the first 3 bags. Now I don't have a receipt so will most likely literally throw $60 in the trash.

Worst part, I'm buying reptibark at insane prices just to have the proper stuff. One step forward two steps back.

Where are you? AVP I bought was about $11, Pro League was about $17. They may have been giving me a decent deal as I never bought less than 15-20 bags at a time and had previously bought a supersack of Turface from each. I always looked up and gave them the actual Turface item numbers to order. They don't really understand this stuff.

What is the problem with the Pro League for your use?

Do you have an Armstrong Garden near you to get bark?

I live in Michigan which is why I specifically asked al where he got his from. He said pro league won't work. I'm not gonna argue. Just pissed off as all hell for wasting money. I'm seriously going to have like $75 in soil per pot times 20 pots.

That makes perfect sense. Michigan and Inland SoCal are unbelievably different climates. I was thinking you were in my area, Sorry.

Still have to think Pro League will be very useful to someone. Bonsai? Something?

Pip. have you thought about looking at local Auto Parts stores and seeing if they have 'Floor Dry"...It is your next best bet if not just as good..Al will chime in and let you know what he thinks of it..They sell that stuff by big bags cheap, and it is what they use to absorb spills on the ground..

Also don't look at it that way, 75 dollars a pot...You will get what you need..It will all work out)

I won't consider it. It's not as high quality as turface. I don't want something that might turn into sludge after a year.

your better off in my opinion not doing it then cheaping out.

Now if I can borrow someone's lawnmower to chop up all of this fur bark I could drop the cost per pot significantly. And I was probably exaggerating, 50-60 per pot not 75.

lesson learned. Just because they say they are selling you something doesn't mean they are. Now what to do with 50lb of useless turface? And I hope the other 100lb sells on Craigslist to some baseball team.

My gritty mix formula worked wonders until I could not move the pot inside due to weight. I used bricks and crushed them and screened for particles around 1/2 inch to 1/8 inch. I used sand at around 1/8 inch size and compost/not peat for water retention. The bricks came from a construction dump. The sand came out of the street gutter. The compost came from my compost maker. It was all free the amount were around 1-3-3. never resisted water when dried out.

What makes the gritty mis work is not the ingredients but the fact that it waters well, aerates well, and doesn't promote root root. Other materials can be use to do the same.

Hey Pip....I wouldn't recommend something to you that would do that, turn to sludge or not be a great substitute for those that can't get their hands on the 'Turface' you need...I actually use it and I have been associated with the 1.1.1 mix for years! In fact, many are finding great success with it since they don't have access to Turface.
[http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1490517/floor-dry-for-gritty-mix?n=32](http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1490517/floor-dry-for-gritty-mix?n=32)
If you get the one that holds together, like that Napa one you are golden..I forget what exact brand it is because it's been a while, but one with more knowledge about it will explain..Have fun!

check it out from tractor supply,

floor dry's competitor.

Be careful with the floor dry & oil absorbent products. The same item number is supplied from different sources and processed differently in different parts of the country. Since it doesn't NEED to hold up when soaked to work for its intended function, they don't test it for that.

Here is the cut & paste from Turface spec sheets on AVP & Pro League showing particle sizes. Are we sure Pro League doesn't have lots of the desired particle sizes or at least close?

Greg. Good point.

Pip. Do you have a Bonsai supplier in your area or a Bonsai shop???

Have you thought of pumice? They sell that and or E-bay does. I really gotten tons of bags from there for a good price.

Not interested in any substitutions. I need 400 gallons of mix. Bonsai store would rape me.

-------------"Bonsai store would rape me"---------------

I hear ya buddy

Ok then..Good luck trying to find some.....A thanks for trying to help would of been better than a comment like that.

Why because I don't want some inferior substitution or because I don't want to pay inflated bonsai prices for hundreds of gallons of mix?

Im not playing this politically correct game.

There's no politically correct game to be had. It's more one of logistics.

Not every exact item will be available locally for every grower in every part of the country... therefore, other recommendations may be made based upon what people have found in their neck of the woods that works the same as the originally named ingredients.

NAPA does carry a very good product. There's a specific part number, and though I'm not familiar with it, myself, I'm sure someone else here can let us know what that number is.

Thank you, Mike, for offering all the help you've tried to...

Glad you see you appreciated it Jodik)

When I get some time I will post a pic for you..I have been using it for years and it is just as good as 'turface' but the only difference is that it is white....Anyone who has access to this product and not 'turface' and does not give it a chance is loosing out in my opinion...

The problem is that the SAME item number from NAPA is completely different since it is made by two completely different manufacturers. I tried some and it was horrible, visibly crumbling in a cup filled with water after only a week or so. I seem to recall that the different manufacturers were East and West so you probably have a much better chance of getting the good stuff if you aren't near me. Also, companies change products all the time and there is no reason for the product to hold up that well for its intended use.

Just be careful before you spend a lot of time.

Turface, or equivalent, is available everywhere in the US. If you can't find Turface, look for the same type of item provided to baseball fields. You can do a search on "Calcined Clay" adding "baseball fields" "drying agent" etc.

Yes, and after a bag or two of bad floor dry your losing money compared to just buying the right stuff.

On top of that people like me who will sift out everything smaller than 1/8 will loose even more than the 85 to 90 percent than with turface.

That stinks that it can't be available to all.....I guess I can consider myself one of the lucky ones...They provide that stuff for me right here at work..It is exactly what' turface' is, and does hold up just like it...You can soak it and stamp on it and it just won't break down....Funny thing is that I love the color, earthy tone, so I mix it in with my' turface' making for a very nice looking mix)

Pi p , you have no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to what I am suggesting you try out..It is obvious you can only find junk, since you keep making it known, not the right stuff.But I can find both and lucky to find what is just as good if not better....It's nice to see you are ar not appreciative of my time and help when I thought you were in a pinch even though you can't find what I use or the time to be thankful for my help...Sorry for my good intentions....I wish you all the success in finding the 'turface' you need ...

In some parts of the country, there are also certain brands of cat litter that will work the same as turface.

Sometimes, locating the needed ingredients in reasonable quantities at reasonable prices is a bit of a challenge. It's kind of like a treasure hunt.

People over at the Container Gardening Forum may be able to help with location of proper products. Other sources might include orchid greenhouses for the bark portion, bonsai shops, lawn and garden centers, sometimes even hydroponic stores.

It took me a while to gather the necessary ingredients I wanted to use, but now I have fairly local sources with decent prices... it was well worth the effort I went through to find everything.

Happy Growing!

And how many bags did you throw away before you found the good stuff? Fact is Napa is made in more than one location with more than one level of quality.

my bad I don't want to risk my medium over a couple dollars. I'm buying reptibark at a high cost im not cheaping out on the turface. Get over it.

Please, stop being rude when you address me. Pip! I've done nothing to deserve it and have had 'nothing' but generous and kind towards you in thread after thread..... ...".Get over it" was not called for ! I take no offense in what you do, but only care that you get the right help... If you have any manners at all, respect or consideration, use them. A' thank you' is not that difficult to say......Now you might be more polite on account of me, but certainly not towards me)

I see the Forums has already removed one of your rude ranty threads, please watch that they don't remove you..I've been here to many years to see behavior like that not stick around.

If you have nothing nice to say,then say nothing at all..

Lol and your just the model of friendlyness.

i couldn't care less if you don't like me. I said I didn't want a crappy substitute and you took offense. Your bad. I point out that it only takes a few bags of bad stuff to lose all savings, you take offense. I point out that I don't want to pay inflated bonsi prices, you take offense.

You sir have the problem.

Pip I ran into the same problem, Cost, availability, quality. I finally came up with my own mix from scraps that worked very well for me . Then my back broke and got a load of screws and steel plates. I found a source of pine fines and I have a source of perlite and potting soil that is free. I am now a 5-1-1 grower. I am now very careful to place my trees where they cannot blow over. I also plan to have all my trees in ground outside by next fall. There is one thing certain in my experience is that nothing goes as planned and I must roll with the punches to get anywhere with citrus

Sorry to hear about your back steve.

it isn't that I'm too worried about cost, I'm more worried about wasting my expensive material by not using the exact recipe.

Hey, fellas!

Seems that things are a bit tense here. Perhaps it's the changing of the seasons, the Autumn rut. Either way, let's all focus our aggravations on the difficulty that can certainly arise when attempting to source high quality ingredients. When considerable cost is on the line, we want the most value...and we know that our plants are worth it.

Mike is a model of kindness and generosity, that much is for sure. He's also a valuable resource and a well of knowledge. If not for Mike, I never would have attempted indoor citrus.

Josh

I agree but differ on the most value, MAYBE ruining hundreds of dollars of reptibark which I already said I bought to save tens of dollars doesn't make sence. I don't understand why people are so offended by my choice to just follow the recipe as written. Isn't it my choice? Idk. Let's move on.

I couldn't tell ya.

I've never followed the exact recipe, yet I'm a huge proponent of the principles behind the mix. In my area, I can source quartzite, but I don't have easy access to granite. I'd love to get my hands on some....

Josh

Pip, am not offended about your choice and I you have misread my intentions...I misinterpeted your frustration as a lack of appreciation for trying to help you. ..

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding and I hope you have wonderful day. I understand your desire to make it just right. If I could ship you all the right Turface in the lI would..I am surrounded by it and if you need any, I would gladly help you acquire it some how...) I would ship you boxes if it and a you would have to do is pay shipping Have almost a whole bag I would even prescreen it for you saving you more money

I see someone liked your comment, go figure, lol...The very one who wrote me an e-mail just last week...) I have yet to respond...

Hey Josh, thanks for your comments and I remember those days for sure! I always wonder how you grow such awesome trees in the only products you can find..If I could send you granite I would..)

David, was your question ever answered?

There's too many posts to read.

It's not true citrus in containers live one or two years. My citrus were purchased in the 90's-mid 2000's. They live outside during summer months, and indoors from Oct-May.

Each citrus is planted in a MG, amended with coarse sand, pebbles, bark, perlite and a little peat.

Good luck... Toni

"And how many bags did you throw away before you found the good stuff?"

How many bags of what did I throw out, precisely?

I don't throw anything away... even if I can't use it in a container environment, I'll find a way to make it into something good for my vegetable garden, or I'll alter it for use in larger tubs or barrels.

But to actually answer your question... none. I did some research before buying anything. I asked a lot of questions in the Container Gardening Forum, among others, found out what everyone else was using and where they were locating it, etc. Several people, including Mike, Josh, Al, Laura and a few others from that forum made some recommendations. Then, I began a little online research, looking at various growers, soils, what they had for sale, what size the pieces were, pricing plus shipping... I even checked eBay - just to have a look, and see what people were selling and buying.

I found a ton of information using key words like "bonsai soil", "orchid bark", and others that might bring up links to places - like blogs, for example - that would show and/or tell me more regarding the type of medium I was interested in, and how they were using it, and where they were finding their ingredients.

In my own situation, I don't need wheelbarrow after wheelbarrow of medium. I only need enough to grow my Amaryllid collection, my orchids, and a few assorted other potted plants... some rather large, some small. We're probably talking somewhere around a couple of dozen 8" to 14" pots, give or take, some bigger or smaller by a few inches... plus a few hanging baskets.

I mix smaller batches to accommodate whatever I'm growing, and wherever it will grow for the season - indoor or outdoor. I mix according to how much I think I might need for each planting project. This allows me to adjust ratios as needed, and I keep any mixed leftovers in covered containers. I use fir bark pieces, coarse perlite, granite chips, and turface (or equivalent) - and I mainly use a rendition of the Gritty Mix... (though I will make it more like the 511 for other projects.)

I was actually surprised at how much information is available on the more porous types of medium on the internet... and I have to say that I found the most help over at the Container Gardening Forum, right here, at GW... or Houzz, as it is now.

I was frustrated for a short time, myself... but I knew I would locate what I needed if I just had some patience, and kept asking questions.

Gardening of any kind can be frustrating... there isn't just one single way to grow anything, or one single environment in which everyone grows the same way. The only things that are relative constants are what roots require to maintain health (which in turn maintains plant health), and the very basic physics of how water moves through soils in confined environments (pots).

I'm 53 - I'm a Grandmother - and I don't mind saying that it took me well over half my life to find the information that really "clicked", logically speaking, and made growing plants as enjoyable and rewarding as I find it now! I limped along with mediocre success for a long time before I discovered Al's writings which really made me think about the whole process in a very straightforward and logical way.

Oh, it certainly takes a little adjustment while a grower moves from peat based, bagged, soggy soils to a more porous medium with a larger particulate that we can control ourselves, with regard to moisture, nutrition, etc... but it's all been worth it.

Even though it's completely understandable, there's no need for anyone to get ruffled feathers over this issue... the bottom line is, different areas of our country - not to mention different countries - will sell different products, whether it's a brand name issue, a pricing issue, a quality issue, or it's just difficult to find the particle size you need/want.

There are so many nice people here, and in other forums - like the Container Gardening Forum - that will bend over backward to try to help you locate what you need, as close to your area as possible... and I believe Josh even has a YouTube video to help beginners by showing them how he prepares his 511 medium... I don't have a ready link, but google should be able to help easily enough.

Mike is one of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure to know. And even though it's sometimes difficult to know what a person means through the written word... because we each have different styles of writing or expressing ourselves, and we can't see facial expression or hear tone... I know there is no way Mike would steer someone in the wrong direction, ever be rude, or take what may be unintentional rudeness from others personally.

By the same token, there are some people who write off the cuff, so to speak, and maybe they simply don't realize how off-putting they come off through their typed words. It's all in how we interpret what we read... context and reading comprehension are more important then ever on message boards where we aren't face to face. Sometimes it helps if we take a moment, take a breath, and imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes... we can't know what others are feeling, what they're going through in life, with health, family, financial of other burdens that we might not consider.

Sometimes, what we might not understand is that those who are disabled, or ill or immobile in some way, or are perhaps retired or advancing in age, or are recuperating from an illness or injury... whatever the case may be... we gather at forums like these, because we are unable to have those active lives that the few will tell us to get when they think, by their estimation, that we spend a lot of time on our computers, or on various forums and message boards. If only everyone were young and healthy and spry, and had the wherewithal to get an active, happy life...

But really...

Are we, or are we not all here because we love plants? And isn't the basic idea to share, to learn, to teach, to grow not just plants as optimally as we hope to from our experiences here, but also to try to grow as human beings through our experiences?

Happy Gardening! :-)

Toni- thanks for your advice. What area do you live in? Are you in Southern California too?

David, I wish. lol

I live in IL. Cold, dry, dark winters....

Bravo, Jodi!! Great post!!! I Just came by and saw this thread. Wow! I just wanted to say that it does take time to find the right Ingredients, but we all have been through it. Keep trying to get what you need and sometimes we all have to substitute other ingredients to make up for what we can not find..

Josh has the Cherrystone I have the Gran-I-grit! I can find the Turface MVP. I also can use the Napa Floor Dry Part 8822 if needed...

Just thought I would say hi to Mike and thank him for all he has done for me!! Many years ago, I was on a search.. He pointed me inthe right direction and I kept on going .. ;-)

Mahalo, Mike!!!

Laura

Laura....Where have you been these days!!? I know you love to spend time at the Container Forum, but don't ben a stranger...Thank you..It's been a pleasure getting to know many like you through the years here...Thanks for the info..

Birdsin bloom, I agree..I hope Dave was able to learn from here. Have a wonderful day)

Jodik, you make a lot of sense..Thanks..

This thread is about the the 'gritty' soil which opened up a discussion for many to take part in..Our intentions were to help Dave because he asked for a recommendation ..Hopefully he took a a lot of good feedback with him.

Many truly want to grow using the three ingredients lined out in the 1.1.1 mix, but will do what ever it takes to come as close as possible to it, even if they can't find the original ingredients needed ..I figured I was being helpful.. I did take the lack of appreciation a bit personal, but being around these forums for years, every human succumbs to that at one time or another...I do care about the choices people make when wanting to grow their Citrus successfully, to their full potential, but not offended at the choices anyone makes..)

You were being helpful, just not understanding that some people simply do not want to make changes, especially when it's their first time with the mix and have no experience to compare a substitute to the original.

So how many years can you keep plant in a gritty pot? 1? 2?

How hard is it to repot? Do you just root prune and reuse the pot and mix?

It depends upon the size of the pot, the plant, and the amount of growth.

You could have a plant in Gritty Mix for several years.

Re-potting is super easy. Just tease out the outer mix, do your root maintenance, then re-pot with fresh Gritty mix around the outside and bottom of the root-ball.

Josh

Mike, thanks, I hope so too.

There are different ways to pot....we do what works for our plants. Toni

Hi Birdsnblooms....Very good)

Pip313, I totally understand and I hear you..I use to be just like that...I wanted to stick by the book so I can't blame you there..Have a wonderful night and please keep us updated on how things go)