Hi Brad, I think the trouble arose not from humor or cultish dogma. It was to defend another member against perceived accusations: that Al had venal or selfish motives, and that those motives led him to publicize his mix. Respondents felt both premises were false and unfair. I'd bet some of those defending Al don't even use his mix.

While I agree people should have a thicker skin (I certainly should), here is a simple truth: it is rude to characterize other people's motives, personality, or psychological attributes in a public forum. You can put a smiley face on it or claim it's humor, but such curlycues don't change the fact that it's rudeness, plain and simple.

Now... rudeness serves a purpose. It's not murder or a nuclear bomb. Many folks (teachers, leaders) employ rudeness to great effect. But you have decide whether its fruits are what you want. And if you employ rudeness, you will live with its consequences: hurt feelings, defensive attacks, cat-and-dog fights.

The writer has a choice.

I think -R brought this on himself. While I would never have reported it or had it pulled, from what I've seen of him here he doesn't seem to play well w/ others.

Also, I can't say I've seen him actually come on & post to contribute like on the plants, their care, experiments he's done or anything else like that.

From what I've seen of him, he has come on to disparage ongoing discussions, attack people (myself included, a number of times in fact) & generally be rude & annoying.

From his postings I haven't sensed he actually has plant experience &/or knowledge, rather is just a curmudgeon looking to make trouble as several people suggested.

Maybe you know him from other contexts & settings to suggest what you have, otherwise I don't get it.

I too saw Mike's comment, thought it unfortunately transparent & thought, well for someone who says he doesn't post much here anymore, he still seems rather invested.

Anyway seemed unfortunate all around.

I happen not to use Al's gritty mix, though I have wanted to ask him for some as an experiment on a variegated Ficus elastica I've had to repot. I (foolishly) ended up getting a bit too shy to ask him for the favor & so improvised fast draining mix of my own.

It's absolutely amazing the things people will get bent out of shape over.

1) I agree that posts can get deleted too easily here, if only because it leaves us with nothing but hearsay.

2) I understand that if you don't care for it, something as ubiquitous as the gritty mix is around here, can get on a your nerves. But really, Al's biggest "crime" is being really long-winded and probably scaring a few people off the idea on that account. I do think that other people sometimes come off somewhat dogmatic on the issue, but Robert's post was not a good way to handle that (if it needs to be "handled" at all).

3) Robert has a caustic personality and reaps what he sows: It's not other people's responsibility to make excuses for him.

For what it's worth, I'll defend Robert, too. It's true, I have been the target of his sarcasm and I've seen him make needless, negative, personal comments about other members. However, I have also witnessed his genuine interest and contributions on other threads. He has indeed posted photos and responded to questions with culture advice where he showed an uncommon level of experience and skill. While he doesn't need me to vouch for him -- he's been here a lot longer than I have -- it's clear to me his contributions have an unmistakeable upside. ---DC in L.A.

Well said everyone. I didn't think the thread needed to be deleted and I hope that Robert is able to continue posting here, but I think it's apparent that he would benefit from exercising a bit of restraint in some areas.

I will add that Al's contributions are primarily about the science behind our choices. His specific mix recommendations are really just ancillary to that. I wish we could focus more on the former than the latter. For instance, you rarely see any talk of perched water tables on this forum. That's a big factor when considering a mix like Robert's that contains 1/3 topsoil.

Brad,

Beg to differ, but we're OK with that. I'm in agreement with Citosa's #3. Personally, I don't think adults or children should be allowed free reign in what they say without consequences. Personally, I don't like the censorship myself; nonetheless, he exceeds limits regularly and seems to need reminding that this place should not be the scene of his repeated rudeness and general bad behavior. I don't mean to sound scolding. I'm the first to acknowledge the truth in some you've written, but personally, his all-around-meanness at times strikes me too often as painfully infantile. Rather than be part of the problem, I'd rather be part of the solution and point it out to him, in my painfully infantile manner (see, one of my faults isn't the inability to self-deprecate). For the record, I've tried to be his cheerleader and advocate in the past, but it all is too tiresome after a while. I'll hand it off to you, then, with a 'Buena suerte!'.

Get off my back PG, it's none of your buisness. Don't pick on me. I have had enough. Who are you to say it's transparant?

It is obvious many of R's comments were deleted off your own thread and it's apparent who really has a problem with him.

Trolls are those who can be perceived or who actually start trouble and it was just a thought I posted for evryone to be aware of.

Do you live under a bridge? Let the one without sin be the first to cast the stone here. I too have been the brunt of your rudeness and inuendos many times over, and never reported your actions against me.

By the way, I read these threads every day and don't have to post until I feel like it or feel motivated to do so without fear of an attack by you or anyone else. Yes am I am invested here and will continue to be publically or privately.

This is sure. If you make anymore negative comments about me or to me, I will report you. I have had enough.

Many will agree with me on this.

Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Roberts post deleted on PG's thread.

Karen,

I guess you've overlooked his many Euphorbia contributions - he can grow the heck out of them and has shared a lot of his knowledge.

Mike,

I'm troubled to see your inner pit-bull out. OTOH, I'm glad you have one.

Wow, I must have missed something. I don't understand the whole concept of arguing on message boards, but apparently some people get a kick out of it. Personally, if I start reading a thread, and notice that the posts are getting intense, I just hit the back button, and move on. No sense it raising your blood pressure over something or someone on the internet, when there is plenty of things and people in real life to do that.

Anyways, on to the topic of potting mixes and such. I'll keep it short, because I'm in no way an expert. From my observations, there seems to be 3 groups of people; the ones who agree with Al (tapla), the ones who don't, and the people who are new to the whole thing, and came here to learn some things. I am part of the 3rd group; I came here to get some advice, and learn some things. Right off the bat, I had to take a step back, because my first attempts at learning about soils led to the same old arguements about gritty mixes. It's intimidating to new people, if not down right discouraging. For the record, Al's science sounded rational and good to me, so I hopped on his bandwagon. So far, I am happy with the results. But, to each his own, no harm no foul if people choose to do different things. Trying different things is how we find new and better ideas.

I don't have much experience with Robert, but from what I have read, sure, he can be sarcastic, but I also notice that he continually gets inticed by others. Maybe its a grudge from the past, who knows, but either way, I don't think he is always to blame. Hopefully it all smoothes out, because I like to look at this forum as a way for all of us with the same hobby to gather and share ideas, not fight about them.

Joe

Euphorbia... and mesembs. These are not trivial skills.

Wow, that Sansevieria post is missing a LOT of comments. As much as I enjoy reading posts here, and as annoying as it can be when comments take a turn for the rude, I'm starting to be really put off by the amount of sanitizing going on in this forum.

I can say I've seen ~R start threads, but I don't read them, more out of dislike for him than the plants he's posting about.

I've noticed his threads get very little response.
So if he does have lots to offer, I'm sure many like PG hasn't noticed, or chose not to read his posts, like myself.

His harsh and rude behavior/attitude has turned many against him, and he brought it on himself.

I would say I agree with citosa's # 3 also.

I defended Al because the post was rude, uncalled for and way out of line! It doesn't matter how it was meant to be taken.

I'd do the same for certain members here who seem to specialize in one or 2 types of plants. They're here to share and teach with no other motives or praise expected. Just as Al does with the mixes.

JoJo

Threads like this remind me of why I left GW for a while. Had hoped folks had gotten over the tantrums and diatribes. Sad to see that hasn't changed.

Holy crap, what in the world went on over here? I missed all the action, LOL!

I don't even know who this "R" person is, but it sounds like the turmoil created here was very childish.

As far as Al's mix, I'll throw in my two pence:
The concepts he discusses are more important than the ingredients. And FWIW, in my experience, any gritty mix similar to Al's mix works exceptionally well for many types of plants, succulents included.

Over the course of the last 3-4 years, everytime a plant of mine needed repotting, I did so with my own concoction of Al's mix. It is different because I don't have easy access to all the same substrates, but for the most part the principles of drainage, water tables, aeration, and ability to hold nutrients are the same.

The only group of plants that have not done as well with a very coarse mix are Mesembs. This should not be a surprise. In habitat they often grow in very dense soils and so have adapted with very fine roots that swim in a coarse mix. For the Mesembs I still prefer to use a much more dense mix with a high % of clayey garden soil. I have Lithops from seed in a coarse mix akin to Al's, and they are not as colorful, prolific or as large as those I have had in denser mixes. I would definitely advise against using a very coarse mix for things like Lithops, Conophytum, Gibbaeum, Muiria, Argyroderma or any other dwarf Mesemb.

Al's mix would be a fine choice for almost any other succulent I can think of, barring the few outliers that need something different.

x

The concepts he [Al] discusses are more important than the ingredients.

Exactly.

The only Mesemb I've grown is Trichodiadema bulbosum, but I have wondered whether some of the smaller, fine rooted species might require a finer soil. I don't know if I could bring myself to use topsoil (shudder), but I might use some peat, fine bark, and/or sand if I were to grow more of these.

X, your words about mesembs and soil were most insightful and educational!
That was exactly what I needed to hear. Gold nuggets.
I'm preparing a list of seeds for an order from Mesa. I would love to hear some more specifics about growing mesembs. My first attempt at Lithops from seed was not a total loss but very poor.
I need to buy some books.

Ahh... interesting. For a while I was experimenting with a heavy, mineral mix with a lot of decomposed granite and fine aggregate. I think it's too dense for most things, but the small mesembs I put in this mix are doing better than others I left in the more organic mix they had when I bought them, or the ones I repotted into my usual, light mix: lithops, dinteranthus, argyroderma. ---DC in L.A.

penfold - try to avoid peat, and use fine sand in only small amounts. I know the thought of using garden soil makes people shutter, but it really shouldn't. Depending on what your native loam is composed of, it makes for an excellent substrate as long as it is mixed with something coarse that has limited water holding capacity. Pumice or perlite make a perfect companion to dense soil.

I use soil that is right below the top 5-6 inches of topsoil. Here in southern NY, it tends to be a reddish, clayey loam. I never analyzed it but I assume it is low in nutrients. It forms a muck when wet, and is hard yet brittle when dry.

Try making up a mix that is about 2 parts perlite to 1 part garden soil, and see how some plants do. For me, the Mesembs do very well, grow tight and colorful, and flower regularly. You have to be careful not to water often, since it takes awhile for this mix to drain when it is not hot. A light watering once every 10 days during active growth, and a little less often during dormancy works well for me.

hanzrobo - you will enjoy markedly better success if you sow your seeds in early September and leave the pots outdoors protected from heavy rain. The ambient temps in late summer/ early fall are perfect - warm days and cool nights. After a few months of growth, Mesembs will do well indoors under lights as long as it is not too warm at night (50s F is perfect). I know it may not be easy to find a place that is suitable - an unheated garage is good.

Another key to Mesemb seed is to never let the seeds or seedlings dry out completely for the first 6+ months. I have found that it is safe to leave the seedling pots in a tray of shallow water so the soil stays moist, while simultaneously running a fan 24-7 to keep the air moving (if not outdoors).

amanzed - I have noticed the same thing. Dense is good for Mesembs. The same goes for other dwarf, cryptic species from RSA like some of the small Crassula, Adromischus and Avonia. Light, regular little sips of water during the spring and fall will result in faster than expected growth.

x

Brad & amanzed,
Thanks. I am "gritty" (as in sarcastic, sometimes caustic). I don't apologize for that...hopefully there's room for disagreement in this forum.

Al's Gritty Mix is probably great (haven't tried it myself), and he has indeed contributed a lot of good information to this forum. But there aren't really any new soil mixes, just variations, so I wish people wouldn't claim credit where credit isn't due.

As others have mentioned, it's a good starting point, but it's not the be all and end all of soil mixes. What works for someone in Calgary might not work for someone in Austin or Mexico City. You need to find what works best for you. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." (I didn't say that, I love cats!)

If I said 2/3 Napa to 1/3 Scotts, it should be the opposite! The Napa is similar to pumice, in that it's lighter, aerates the soil, and slowly releases absorbed water. Having said that, I'm less happy with Scotts Topsoil this year. What used to be consistent from year to year, this year isn't....lots more pebbles and wood pieces, and it's a lot more clayey (is that a word?) than it used to be.

I think my mix might be a better ice cream topping, You'll probably lose fewer teeth :)

-R

xerophyte_nyc: ahhh... small Crassula in this group too. That reminds me, I need to attempt to restart C hirtipes I got from Huntington a while back. I salvaged a few pieces from my failing pot. It's so small it's easy to neglect or mismanage, which I did. ---DC in L.A.

Posted by pirate_girl Zone7 NYC (My Page) on
Thu, Jun 23, 11 at 16:42
>I can't say I've seen him actually come on & post to contribute like on the plants [sic], their care, experiments he's done or anything else like that.

I think we've been over this one before.

>I too saw Mike's comment

Posted by meyermike_1micha 5 (mikerno_1@yahoo.com) on
Thu, Jun 23, 11 at 18:21
>Get off my back PG, it's none of your buisness. Don't pick on me. I have had enough. Who are you to say it's transparant?
>It is obvious many of R's comments were deleted off your own thread and it's apparent who really has a problem with him.
>I too have been the brunt of your rudeness and inuendos many times over, and never reported your actions against me.

I'm just sayin' :)
-R

Hi Robert: Well, the writing style in question is sometimes more rude than I'd choose... but as you say, there is more than one way to roast a turkey, mix succulent container soil, or contribute to a forum.

Back to horticulture: Ah!... so the pore size of the Napa 8822 is comparable to that of pumice? With most calcined products, I thought the pore size tended to be smaller, the product more dense, favoring water retention over air.

Do you think the inclusion of this in your mix acts as a pest retardant, too? (for chitinous baddies) Sorta "systemic" for the soil rather than the plant, since it's an integral component of the medium? ---DCE in L.A.

Amanzed,
I don't know about pore size...that could very well be true. I did a couple of experiments with water absorption of Napa vs. perlite (I guess that should be aDsorption?) and the Napa took up about twice as much water as Perlite, either pure Napa or mixed 50/50 with soil. I didn't try pumice.

I'm guessing that one important factor is how long the substrate is exposed to water. I always water my plants twice, so the soil is thoroughly saturated. Since many of my plants are shrubby Euphorbias, more from arid to semi-arid forests rather than anything resembling desert conditions, my guess is that they enjoy the slow release of moisture.

I get where you're going with the "systemic" thing, but I wash the 8822 thoroughly. Having said that, other than some mealy bugs before I started using 8822, I've never had any insect pests on my Euphorbias. That's the least of my worries :)

-R

Yeah, I was just wondering since some people use diatomaceous earth to kill bugs, supposedly erodes the chitin.

Hi DC,
I've heard of diatomaceous earth being used to kill bugs, but in a powder form.

You can get it at Home Depot and such places with a pesticide mixed in, or a pure from from Health food stores, or Feed stores. The pure form is used by both people and animals for intestinal parasites.

I got a 5Lb. bag at the feed store and put a teaspoon or 2 per pot. I can't say it helps, but no proof it's not either. ;-)

JoJo

Right... so you figure the calcined diatomaceous earth products like the 8822 doesn't have this action, whereas the powdered products do... or might? I ask, because root mealies seem endemic in Los Angeles. I think a combination of measures (including strong, healthy plants of course) will help keep them in check. But I'm always on the lookout for additional measures besides imidacloprid.

I've never heard of products like napa's 8822 being used for the purpose of insect control.

When I got the powder, I didn't even know napa had the 8822. :-) I use turface in my mixes.

I wonder if it has anything to do with powder form being sharper and able to scratch their skin (so to say) which causes them to dehydrate?

or maybe because the 8822 retains moisture, it loses an effect on the bugs?

I've never really thought about why the powder is recommended and not the 8822. Good question. :-)

Last year I had a huge problem with mealies, so I got the powder, I haven't seen any since, but don't know if it was the powder working, or the re poting of my plants.

JoJo

Diatomaceous earth is just the skeletons of single celled diatom algae. Under a microscope, it looks like this http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/Content/diatom-shapes-527153-sw.jpg Yes, those are made of glass. It kills insects because the jagged pieces get between the plates of the insect's exoskeleton and causes physical injury to them, not because it's poisonous.

In #8822 and similar products the diatom skeletons are melted together and no longer have this effect.

Yes, Wally, that is what I was asking. I was aware of the principles behind diatomaceous earth. I just hadn't heard for sure if calcining the diatomaceous earth made the sharp diatom exoskeletons ineffective at damaging chitinous shells. And so I didn't know if adding Napa 8822 to soil made the soil less hospitable to soil-dwelling arthropods.