How tall a pop-up are you considering? I would do the highest pop-up possible to block food splatters on the windows and counter behind the cook top. But I still think you'll end up with grease on the windows and it's not going to be easy to clean that area. I had to crawl up on my counter to clean the area behind my corner sink. Can't imagine crawling on a cook top to clean.

Have you checked code? It varies from area to area but a lot of places won't allow cook tops in front of windows or if they do, the windows can't be operational.

As for the lay-out ... IMO, you need more counter for prep, preferably not over DWs. NKBA (National Kitchen & Bath Assoc) recommends at least 155" of counter to support a cook top and wall oven. That's not to say that you can't get by with less - many do because they don't have a choice - but you do. I think you'd be better off going with a double oven range instead of a cook top and wall ovens.

Shenandoah McKinley Maple Hazelnut - Hironimus · More Info

This will also be a less expensive option.

Two ideas that, hopefully give you the doubling up you need for a Kosher kitchen while also gaining you more counter space to prep meals, etc.

I moved the double oven range to the left wall, one of the sinks and DWs to the peninsula with the other sink and DW to the fridge wall. MW is now a MW drawer below the long span of counter between sink and range.

Because the above doesn't give you as much secondary prep room as you'd have in the primary prep area, I came up with Plan B.

I moved the double oven range to the diagonal with a wall behind it to support a hood and to remove a dead, hard to clean space from behind the range.

I also swapped location of pantry and 2nd sink and DW to place the 2nd sink closer to the range and 2nd prep area.

One thought: do you need 2 full DWs or can you get by with 2 dishwasher drawers? If you can, you'd gain more drawer storage below each dish drawer.

Dishwasher Drawer · More Info

Tudor House · More Info

Putting a range at a diagonal can be tricky so be sure you're working with someone who knows what to watch for. For more information, read A Design Reader Asks: Help with range in the corner? and A reader asks: A cooktop or range in the corner?

Sara, I have very little to add to your layout, but I can tell you that ACK built our cabenets and they are amazing. They look and feel like cabenets that cost double. Even our GC who installed them was blown away. You're going to be very happy.

Edit: okay, one thing to add... You might consider a convection oven/microwave combo unit as your second oven. We have a Miele (which was a splurge, but there are other companies that make them). Two ovens was a requirement for us, and the combo saves a bunch of space.

You're welcome! Unfortunately,
I don't have a way to show you elevations. I might be able to tweak
your elevations using Paint but it won't be very sophisticated or neat
so I don't know how helpful it will be. There are other GWers who can do
that, though, so hopefully they will drop into this thread and lend a
hand.

"Window is set back about 20 inches behind that area...." So the reach from counter edge to windows will be 45 1/2"? (20" + 25 1/2" for cab & counter overhang). Wow, that is deep! That's about how deep the distance was from my corner sink's counter edge to the back corner and I was never able to reach the area without climbing on the counter. It didn't get cleaned as often as it should have, for that reason, and it showed.

Today's pop-ups work so much better than my recently replaced 21 yr old, 7" pop-up downdraft but they are still not as effective as hoods so at some point, you will need to clean behind the cook top as well as wash the windows. Do you have a plan for cleaning the counter behind the cook top and washing the windows?

"... I would like two separate ovens (so one oven in wall would be preferred. )"

Does your current plan include a wall oven below the cook top? That's not clear from your drawings. If so, you won't have room to fit the downdraft. They take up a lot of room beneath a cook top. I think the shelves I had in the cab below my cook top were no more than 12" deep.

Are you able to or willing to switch from 2 full DWs to 2 dishwasher drawers? If that would satisfy Kosher requirements and your needs, that would be one way to gain storage.

Is counter seating a must?

Are you reusing an existing fridge or buying a new one? Will it be counter depth or standard depth? I can't tell by your drawings.

Can you move the doorway on the left wall? I don't know if that would
help but it would be nice to know what, if any, structural changes are
possible.

Can you do a quick sketch of your first floor? It would be helpful to
see how the kitchen relates to other rooms. There might be a way to get
more space that hasn't occurred to you. Or maybe not, but it would be
good to make sure you've exhausted all possibilities.

For instance: If your fridge is standard depth, one way to reduce its bulk is by recessing the fridge box into the stud space in the wall behind the fridge. You'd gain about 3", which would help in aisles around the fridge. It would also make a standard depth fridge look counter depth.

Thanks so much - to answer:

Is counter seating a must? Yes, we need breakfast area for my kids.

Are you reusing an existing fridge or buying a new one? Will it be counter depth or standard depth? I can't tell by your drawings. - We are reusing as its almost new and it's counter depth french door.

Can you move the doorway on the left wall? I don't know if that would help but it would be nice to know what, if any, structural changes are possible. we can move doorways whereever they want to go - nothing is load bearing.

Can you do a quick sketch of your first floor? It would be helpful to see how the kitchen relates to other rooms. There might be a way to get more space that hasn't occurred to you. Or maybe not, but it would be good to make sure you've exhausted all possibilities.

My current layout will be uploaded in a moment...

For instance: If your fridge is standard depth, one way to reduce its bulk is by recessing the fridge box into the stud space in the wall behind the fridge. You'd gain about 3", which would help in aisles around the fridge. It would also make a standard depth fridge look counter depth. (It's counter depth)

We really want separate dishwashers. Just makes things easier and I do a LOT of cooking so drawers would probably not be large enough (although I would consider a single drawer for one of them)

sort of imagining this: https://www.houzz.com/photos/alexandria-bright-appeal-white-kitchen-with-peninsula-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~12745028 (more like daydreaming...)

These are the totally not professional cell-phone pictures of our kitchen, taken before we painted, and before we installed the light fixtures over the peninsula, *and* before our contractor fixed the dishwasher so it sits flush with the cabinets. If I were home, I'd take better ones, (maybe even in the daytime!). The microwave/convection oven is in a full hight cabinet at the end of the peninsula... sadly, not pictured in any of these :-)

Someday, I'll remember to take better pictures...

But the real difference between ACK and other cabinet companies is in the details. The drawers are all perfectly dovetailed and solid wood, the lazy-susans they build are *actually* usable, etc, etc... no picture will really show that.

Love the blue! What an awesome, fun kitchen! I was dying to do inset - but I think for space crunch I'm going to do overlay to get more space in each cabinet. Great job on yours!!

Thanks for answering my questions and posting the first floor plan. That's really helpful. I'm working on an idea for you but it will be later before I can post it.

What's against the wall in the hallway between kitchen and garage? Are those cabs and counters? Mudroom lockers?

One more question (for now ;-) How wide is the space from kitchen wall (current range wall) to far dining room wall? I want to make sure I suggest a plan that gives you a wide enough aisle between peninsula seating and dining room table.

callights, love the blue! I adore your kitchen. I'd like to see more, please. Did you do a reveal thread?

Mudroom cabinets - floor to ceiling storage. We are redoing that cabinet too to match whatever we do in the kitchen for overflow pantry and some storage for kids stuff. (my kids are 6, 12, 16, 19 so no little ones here)

Space from kitchen wall to far dining room wall is about 22 feet (both rooms are 11 feet wide...)

A formal dining room is imperative as I host 20 people at a time at the holidays and we extend into our living room.

I was a little worried about the loss of depth with inset cabinets, but now I'm so glad we stuck with our gut. Even our enormous pasta bowls still fit just fine. As you can see, it's not a large kitchen, but we feel like we have plenty of storage space. I say, if you want inset, get inset. You have to look at this kitchen for a long, long time.

Plus, since ACK builds everything custom anyway, you could have them build your cabinet boxes on your big, tall storage wall 1" deeper. That would more than make up for the difference, and it's likely it wouldn't cost you much, if anything, more.

We used traditional ball-tip hinges because we didn't want to sacrifice the period details on our inset cabinets. If you go that route, know that your kids will slam your cabinet doors. Constantly. If you want soft-close hinges, they'll be invisible, which does affect the look of inset cabinets much more than overlay cabinets. All things to consider...

lisa, I never did a reveal thread... truth be told, I didn't find this kitchen forum until quite late in the process. But if you're interested, I'll try to take some better pictures when I'm home. It's my most favorite room in our house.

I'd love to see more of your kitchen, callights and I know others would, too, so I hope you make the time to do a reveal thread.

Thank you, Sara, for the additional information.

Two more questions. How wide is your DR table? Do you have any other furniture in your DR other than the table? Do you need storage for good china or do you use daily dishes for everything?

I did a quick calculation and in order to have sufficient aisles, you really only have about 118" for your kitchen. NKBA recommends 60" for back to back seating and 44" aisles other seating aisles so people can walk between (back to back) or behind diners. Those are recommendations and you can fudge the aisles but since tight quarters is one of your complaints with your current kitchen, I didn't want to whittle them so much that you wouldn't see much improvement.

btw, we used to have 40" aisles and now have 42" (or 43"?) for the main aisle through the kitchen that passes between island (without seating) and table. Because it's an open aisle - no walls - it doesn't feel cramped. On the other hand, we only have 36" between DR table and wall and it definitely feels snug. I moved the DR table 4" out from the wall, just to see if that made a difference, and it still felt like close quarters.

One thing we did in our recent remodel was add a *huge* window (10' long by 6' tall, 3 windows mulled together) in our DR, bumped out 7", giving us an extra foot elbow room on the window side of the table. That made a huge impact in the DR. The footprint didn't change but it feels and looks much wider than 10'. And it was about 1/4 of the price of doing an addition.

Even if you have set-back requirements and your house is already at the set back limit, you should still be able to add a box bay to gain some elbow room in your DR. A friend of mine who is a CMKBD in the Bay Area told me she does this all the time to gain interior space without bumping up against set back codes.

Is the FR an addition, perhaps a all season porch at one time? Love all the windows!

Oh, wow, a 54" wide table ... I hate to be the wet blanket but I think it would be best if you ditched counter seating. With a table so close to the kitchen, can't your kids sit at the table to eat breakfast?

Our island used to have a seating overhang but we never used it because we only had a 40" aisle. No one would have been able to walk through the kitchen when seats at island and table were occupied. We ditched the seating overhang in favor of storage and I'm so glad we did. Not all kitchens can fit an island (yours can't) and not all kitchens are large enough to accommodate counter seating (mine isn't).

Yes, it would be nice to have counter seating but when space is at a premium, compromises must be made. What are your priorities and what would you be willing to let go of in order to get your top wishes met? My vote would be to ditch the counter seating but it's your kitchen, not mine.

Are you saying that the DR wall has pipes inside it on one or both sides of the window? That is too bad because a box bay would definitely ease your space squeeze.

Here's my idea, possible by eliminating counter seating and moving the kitchen doorway from lower left to upper left.

I stretched the kitchen as wide as possible by going with a 36" aisle between table and wall (enough room to scootch not walk behind seated diners ;-) and a 40" aisle between table and peninsula. Less than min rec but doable, IMO.

The sinks are side by side - kind of like huge double bowl sinks - with DWs on each side of them and narrow cabs at the ends.

Lakehouse · More Info

Pasadena Showcase 2012 · More Info

Oh, shoot, I see a goof. I forgot your fridge was counter depth and designed the above as if it was standard depth. Because it's CD, the cabs on each side of the range are 26 1/2" wide, not 23 1/2" wide and the pull-out pantry is 24" deep, not 30" deep. Oh, and I forgot to mark in upper cabs on the range wall.

The open storage on the peninsula would be like this:

Retro Minneapolis Kitchen · More Info

Do you know about toe kick drawers? Definitely ask if your cab maker about those to give you some extra storage space.

An Elegantly Functional Kitchen in Durham · More Info

Drawers with 28" deep guides.

The fridge/pantry area would be like anwlee's wall, see Walnut kitchen reveal

I forgot to put counter overhang notes on the drawing. The above
assumes 1 1/2" counter overhang along front and back edges and 1"
overhang on sides.

I'm not happy with the range 102" from the
sinks - long way to walk with a pot of hot water - so I'm going to see
what else is possible.

Wow you guys are all awesome!!! I am working with a kitchen designer and she is insisting that my corner sinks are the best option for countertop space. It's nice to see that there are other options available. In these scenarios I don't have much kitchen pantry storage though do I?

sena01 how did you draw that? That's so cool! The issue with that scenario (it's actually one I considered first) was no counter prep except a corner - I already have that issue and it's really difficult to spread out and cook.

so OFF on my measurements! My dining table is 42 inches wide (found my measuring tape!) and my dining room is 12.5 feet wide. Can I have my peninsula seating back???

Accurate measurements make such a difference, don't they? = ) You have 30" more to work with- yay! - and that makes all the difference. That should give you enough room to add peninsula seating back in. Let me play with your plan some more today and see if I can find a happy medium between storage and counter space, especially prep space.

Have you done a tally, including measurements, of all your kitchen items? Doing that in addition to grouping items by use will help you determine how much storage you need and where you need or want it.

Your current kitchen has a lot of doored base cabinets, which aren't nearly as efficient in storage as drawers so you may find a new kitchen holds a lot more than you think it will. We didn't change our kitchen's footprint but because my cab storage is heads and tails better than it used to be, I have room to spare.

Would you be okay if you only had one sink near the range? I know it's not nearly as convenient but given your kitchen's modest size, I haven't been able to come up with a plan that puts both sinks near the range that still gives you decent counter space for prep between sink and range.

One more sink question. What is the minimum single sink size you'd be okay with? Shrinking your sink cabs to 27" (bowl would still be larger than either bowl in your double sink) would help.

Side note: My knowledge of Kosher kitchen needs is limited since none of my Jewish friends keep a Kosher kitchen so let me know if I goof on something in that regard.

Sena, I missed seeing your suggestion until now. Sara, Sena is one of the talented GWers who can provide elevation drawings. One of these days I'll learn how to use my Chief Architect program so I'll be able to do elevations but I haven't set aside the time to delve into the program.

I am open to where the sinks go - as long as they are separate. As for the size - I am open I guess depending on how small the bowl gets..

Blanco offers two SS sinks that can be undermounted in a 27" sink cab. Interior dimensions of one is 23 1/2" x 16 1/2", 9" deep. The other is 20" x 16", 10" deep. One Silgranite sink will also work: 22" x 18 13/16", 10" deep. The 1st and 3rd sinks are D-shaped sinks, flat across the front and sides with a curved back so their span, front to back, is more in the center than it is at the sides.

I didn't look at other brands, just Blanco. Will any of the above provide a bowl large enough for your use?

That should be just fine - I prefer a rectangle rather than a D. But 20" is plenty wide.

Great! That will help ease some of the space crunch. Here's the sink, BLANCO PRECISION™ 16'' R10 Single Bowl.

Is this plan coming closer to what you want?

It's not as straight a path from hall to DR but otherwise, I think the above has many pluses: 2 ovens (one in range, one wall oven), a MW, 2 full DWs, 2 sinks, 33 1/2" between sink and corner near range, 36" between sink and oven cab, a wide pantry cab plus more storage in the oven cab, plus 3 seats at the peninsula. =) Oh, one more plus is that the fridge is closer to FR, LR and table so family and friends can grab drinks without having to wander farther into the kitchen.

Counter overhangs are as listed above: 1 1/2" along front edge, 1" on sides. I allowed 39" for fridge cab (assuming your fridge is 36" wide) for air clearance and cab wall thickness, and a 1" cab wall between DW and fridge and at the end of the peninsula to support the counter.

If you want a wider aisle between table and peninsula, you can shift the table over a few inches.

DR storage: 18" to 24" wide, 12" deep, built-in cabs at each end of the DR might work better than the corner cab you currently have. Something similar to the depth and configuration of these hutches might work:

Traditional Dining Room · More Info

dining area · More Info

From The Land by Daniel P. Gregory · More Info

American Farmhouse · More Info

Consider an angle-front upper cabinet in the corner to the right of the range. We like having those for our larger serving platters, which are too big to fit in normal uppers.

I think Lisa's idea of a 30" range + a single wall oven is the right way to go. With the way she has it set up, it puts the dairy prep area, sink, DW and oven together around one "L", and the meat prep area sink, DW and oven along the opposite "L". We have two friends who keep a Kosher kitchen, and both of theirs are arranged this way.

With the stovetop against a wall (not under the window) you can use a proper hood. I really think you'll prefer that. The first time you pan-fry something, you'd have grease spots on your window (even with how far back the window is set from the counter... trust me...)

hmmm much to think about. This is an interesting idea...

Here's more to think about. ;-)

Platters, along with baking sheets can also be stored in upright slots above the MW.

Forest Ave. · More Info

We did this and *love* it, especially since the only baking sheet storage I had before was a 12" wide cab between corner sink and DW. Our upright dividers are removable so no problems fitting a pan that is wider than the slot.

Another option for the corner upper cab is to leave it open like the cab in the right corner in this kitchen:

Presidio Heights Pueblo Revival - Kitchen · More Info

Easy-Reach Corner Wall Cabinet · More Info

Toe kick drawers are also good places to store platters.