wekick, can you provide any more info on the Kenmore Elite model, so I can search for it? Thanks!

I don't see the point in buying a Kenmore rebadge. All that means is you're locked into Sears for warranty service and that's not a good thing. Just get the Frigidaire or Electrolux version. Both have dual fan options (though based on my own experiences, I'm not convinced that leads to more even baking), and if you want to avoid the blue porcelain, Frigidaire's is black like the Kenmore. Though I haven't heard of any Electrolux chipping issues for years.

How can I tell what the fan arrangement is in my oven?

Thanks, hvtech. I am including the Electrolux oven in my research (have a bias against Frigidaire). I am all over the place on my oven choice…

I am leaning toward a Miele steam-combi oven under my induction cooktop + a second 30" oven on another wall at waist height, for baking and bigger roasting. Since I recently decided to separate placement of the two ovens, I can choose different brands easily, so I've been exploring going with a less costly brand (than Miele to match the steam-combi if they had been together).

Basically, I may be willing to spend (much) more to get an oven with (few) compromises, but I don't want to spend just for the cache of the brand. My hunch is that one gets more when spending a lot more, but likely not an equivalent percentage gain in utility as $$ spent...

I am looking for supremely even heating (to the extent possible), and an elegantly simple interface (which is easier to discern in the negative for me: I don't want to go through many levels to simply set temperature and selection of heating elements). I have no idea whether I would use the Master Chef or Wolf's equivalent of guided cooking, as my last range was a Lacanche and prior to that I had a 30" gas Viking with "convection" (I can't remember if it was heated or just forced air). I am not a Luddite (that sounds old-fashioned), but I haven't had exposure to showrooms with working appliances, as I now live in central Iowa, and the population is too low for that. Perhaps I need to drive to Kansas City, Omaha or Chicago...

Hope I am not stealing this thread: still talking about even baking (+ useable interfaces…).

sjhockeyfan: 1) your manual will say; 2) how many opening/s are there in the back of your oven with fans behind?

I am including the Electrolux oven in my research (have a bias against Frigidaire)

Why? Aside from the control panel and door style they're the same oven! Made in the same factory and share most of the same parts.

My hunch is that one gets more when spending a lot more, but likely not an equivalent percentage gain in utility as $$ spent...

That's correct.

I used an all electric Frigidaire range a couple of weeks ago for about 10 days and it is about 4 years old. I have used it before. The oven was pretty good and fairly even baking sheets of cheese bread. The only problem was the oven cavity was too wide for the rack and it had a tendency to drop on one side. I think it might be from improper stacking in storage but it would be something to check.

My bias is from the all Frigidaire Pro kitchen in the temporary house we purchased when we relocated: penny savings in the DW racks (missing plastic covered wire on front end allows ramekins to fall through and break, for ex.), cuts usability for upper rack by 20%, lower rack has similar penny savings, decreasing usage. (It seems very similar to my previous KA in design, but skimped on weird little things.) S by S fridge is wimpy, had several broken & missing shelves that I had to purchase, top of Pro 30" range -- enamel over steel -- is IMPOSSIBLE to clean of stuck on food debris from previous resident. It may be a good value for the price (which I do not know), but I would like more robust construction.

But we aren't talking about dishwashers, fridges, or gas cooktops here. If you rule out an entire manufacturer because a completely different product of theirs is crap, you won't have any options left. Every appliance manufacturer out there has put out at least one crappy product, and almost all of them have also put out at least one excellent product.

The key to selecting the best appliances is figuring out what each manufacturer does best, and only buying those products from them.

BTW - if build quality is your main concern, Electrolux probably isn't the best choice if you can afford higher end. I am NOT saying their build quality is bad, in fact I think it is very good for the price. But understandably it just can't compare in that area to ovens twice as expensive or more like Wolf, Miele, or Gaggenau.

Even if you can't test them live, you need to at least see these appliances in person. It would be insane to spend this much money on anything sight unseen. Make the drive if you have to, do whatever you need to do. The inconvenience of that pales in comparison to living with something you hate for years. Do you have any friends or neighbors who did a remodel recently and would let you cook them dinner in their kitchen?

How would you judge build quality?

My Wolf is just about junked while the Elux although requiring the same repair keeps on ticking.

The Elux is much quieter than the Wolf.

The Elux is much easier to start and run.

The Elux heats faster and reheats faster.

The Wolf might be made of some heavier metal but since the inside is rotted out what difference does that make?

There might be several ways to look at that.

"BTW - if build quality is your main concern, Electrolux probably isn't the best choice if you can afford higher end. I am NOT saying their build quality is bad, in fact I think it is very good for the price. But understandably it just can't compare in that area to ovens twice as expensive or more like Wolf, Miele, or Gaggenau"

Although, I usually agree with you, hvtech42 , I'm afraid (this time), you are "forking out the horse feathers to the good folks here"!!!!!

Why do I say that?

(1) As far as we know, (at least according to post here and in the former Garden Web), only 3, maybe 4 Electrolux ovens had the chipping problem, and (if under the one year warranty), Electrolux offered to immediately replace the ovens, and the replaced ovens, (as far as we know), did not have any chipping problems. Wolf, at first, just wanted to replace the oven cavity but relented and replaced the ovens, some unfortunately twice and the replacement ovens had the same chipping problem.

(2) Electrolux was the first to have the fully gliding out racks, and 3 of them were "Standard", (No extra charge), on the Icon series.

(3) Electrolux was the first to have the removable bottom, (alto since discontinued), and unlike the Wolf, I just lift the bottom out to clean it, no attaching screws, etc.

(4) Many many reports of the excellent baking performance of the Electrolux ovens, altho of course, there will always be a report on one that doesn't bake as well, No one bats 1000.

(5) The Electrolux had, maybe still does, "The Coolest door in the industry".

(6) We've had ours for almost 10 years now, and completely trouble free and Extremely "Intuitive to use"

One does not always get more "Quality" when buying "High end Brands".

I've had 2 Mercedes and I have a friend that has several, and they are always in the shop, where as my 2007 Accord, well I would have to think real hard to recall the last time it was in the shop, Oh I recall now, I lost the radio code and had to take it to the dealer to get the code. My 1998 Honda had the same "track record".

Anyway, there's probably some starving horses out there, that would be "better served", (this time), by your earlier post.

When I bought the appliances, I had NO BUDGET, "The sky was the limit"

I made my choices based on a lot of research, not whether "some folks" considered them "High end or NOT", and after 10 years, I'm extremely happy with my choices!

Gary

HV, when I first got on the old Garden Web, Miele "was all the rage".

And I did buy the Miele DW because of the top cutlery tray, and I do like the DW.

But seeing all the hollering that was going on with the Miele ovens in Gardenweb, at that time, I did EXACTLY what you said to do.

I went down to Pacific Sales, they had 3 Miele ovens there on display and a couple Electrolux.

First I opened the doors to the ovens, the Electrolux opened much more smoothly and (at least to me), felt more solid.

Then I tried the racks, I found I had to lift up slightly on the Miele racks to get them to come out, and in fact I teased the Girls here who have Miele ovens, I said, "You ladies must have great arms, having to lift those racks up with a 20 lb turkey on them, (paraphrasing). Even back then Electrolux had the ball bearing fully gliding out racks, and now even after 10 years, they are still "smooth as silk", and no lifting required.

Heck, my oven hasn''t even blown out a light bulb yet, after 10 years.

So I do agree with you, in this case, and as usual, Go Down to see the ovens yourself, and don't worry about whether it's high end or not!

At my age, 73, the only one I care to impress is myself, and I prefer to make impressions as to Who I am, rather than what I own.

Gary

Sorry, I should have clarified. When I said "build quality" I was only talking about how it feels. The thickness of the metal, the way the oven door opens and closes, etc. Little details like that that just give some ovens a more "premium" feel when you're comparing at the appliance store. To many people, that stuff doesn't really matter, but to some people, it's very important.

Gary, as for how Electrolux compares to the "upper crust" in that regard, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Also things may have changed since back when you shopped for ovens. When I recently compared the latest generation Electrolux to the Wolf M series and Miele 6000, the latter 2 felt more solid.

However, In terms of performance, reliability, and serviceability, which is the stuff that really matters, I would absolutely put Electrolux up against Wolf or Miele any day of the week. And of course, if you're comparing to one of the Wolf models with the chipping issue, I think it's safe to say the Electrolux is going to last much longer. I really think we agree for the most part. My Electrolux range has been great so far and I hope it continues to be for many more years.

@kitchengirl -- You are coming from conventional oven cooking with the history of Viking and Lacanche especially. It's only natural to want a more even, easier to use oven that does a better job than those in those previous ranges.

BUT that's not the way ovens are going. Like it or not, the direction is European convection and food-based functions. Combination settings and presets are what's new. Yes, the fans are configured differently and there may be one or two. But we saw even with the two fans higher up on this thread, this oven isn't perfectly even either. Oven physics are difficult because the heat doesn't remain stable on its own. The only truly new feature in a residential large oven is the Miele steam injection. The innovation is coming from Europe. Americans try to counter that with build quality. The only American innovation in ranges is upping BTUs which is a marginal issue for most consumers.

The way things are going in 10 years there will only be combi ovens & steam or other multifunction types. They are auxiliary now but they will be perfected and perhaps enlarged.

Because the market (perhaps not you) doesn't know how to bridge the gap between old oven technology and the new European and food based systems. The food based systems (Masterchef f.ex.) are appealing because people don't - in theory -- need to know how to cook a turkey. You just put it in the oven and select turkey.

But it doesn't really work that way. There are too many variables. Or, the functions become too complicated so the transition cannot be made.

You will eventually select and oven and it will, in all likelihood, be the one you are most comfortable with because it's the least amount of work.

Eight years ago when I had to replace my oven I went with Miele knowing that it would be a challenge and have a learning curve. Because it can work the way your average oven does -- you can just use Bake -- but it does way more than that. I have professional training so I know how to use those combination heat settings to get the result I want. F.ex. There is a setting that uses the broiler and the bottom element together. It's tough to use. But it's amazing to roast whole fish because the big problem always has been getting the top to cook through. It's also amazing to reheat things that need to be crisped. But without knowing what the effect of the setting will be on the cooked result it's tough to learn.

A big part of the decision IMO is how much education you want to provide for yourself in this area and match that up with the oven.

Well, again you are right HV, (2 out of 3, not bad!)

Yes since my oven was built, (about 2006), Electrolux has cheapened things as have most manufacturers.

Gone is the removable bottom, Gone is the easy to remove inside door glass that made it easy to clean should something fall between the 2 panes of glass, (alto we've never had a spill between the 2 glass panes)

My JA Fridge, is also an example of what you talk about, my 10 year old one has many more features than do the new JA Fridges, Crank up/down shelves in both fridge & freezer, 3 different zone temps in the fridge, all digitally controlled and with a digital readout for each zone.

None of that can be found on the newer Fridges, and Consumer Reports "Dinged SZ" or not having digitally controlled and readouts for the various fridge compartments.

I guess, I'm just lucky I bought when I did, Even the Miele DW takes less than half the time the new Mieles do.

I'm glad you brought up the differences as to appliances today vs yesterday(10 years ago), as unfortunately we are "Stuck" with what is made today.

Gary

rococogurl, I did have a multifunction oven (Ilve) in our Italian apartment, and I managed that, even reading the Italian manual and using C° ;-} But I think you mean that I will have to do a lot of research about interfaces on various ovens, to understand how user-friendly various models are -- in my own assessment. I want to have the multifunction options and the control that they offer, but I (think) I will rarely use programs like Masterchef.

hvtech, I am seeing things in person at large showrooms, it is just that they aren't live, so one really doesn't know about functionality of the interface.

These last posts are a bit distressing, following 59 Dodge's realization that his oven and fridge brands have declined in quality and features since 2006.

wekick: how old are the Electrolux and Wolf that you are comparing?

The Electrolux is from 08 and as stated above they have a new design that has dual fans and you can leave the racks in for cleaning now. There have been some posts that the fan runs longer after you turn the oven off

The Wolf DF also a range oven is from the same time frame but the range remains unchanged. Wolf also has the E series which is unchanged.

In addition to seeing them in the showroom read the manuals very carefully.

My point is that you cannot always equate heaviness with build quality.

My point is that you cannot always equate heaviness with build quality.

But heaviness is build quality. Not internal quality, part quality, or anything like that. The chipping issue is not a quality control problem - it's a design flaw. A more accurate statement, I think, would be that you can't equate heaviness with reliability, performance, or repairability.

These last posts are a bit distressing, following 59 Dodge's realization that his oven and fridge brands have declined in quality and features since 2006

Things change over time. Some get better, some get worse. The newer Electrolux ovens definitely are more difficult to service than they were before, as Gary's examples show. On the other hand, the Electrolux ovens have also improved since then in other ways. Wekick gave some examples of that with the new self clean racks and dual fans. They have also added a ton of modes that weren't there before, and other features like multi stage cooking. In terms of reliability and performance, the Electrolux ovens are still getting as good reviews as they ever did.

hvtech, I am seeing things in person at large showrooms

Then what do you think of what you've seen so far? That would help us give you suggestions.

Hvtech42, We will just have to disagree about what the term "build quality" means.

ya know what is really funny?

I can recall these same conversations, back in 2006, where many posted, "Things aren't made now nearly as good as they used to be made", (Paraphrasing).

So lets hope the folks that are buying the stuff manufactured now, have as good a luck as I've had with my appliances, ("which weren't made like the old ones").

Almost ten years now and the only service call I've had was for a loose screw on the handle on the speed oven, (Yet we hear how short a life the new Magnetrons have)~~~~~well don't tell my speed oven that, it does a lotta "zapping", as well as speed cooking!

Gary

I think what really happens is that a few firms invent new gizmos to differentiate themselves from the market and spend a good amount of lead up time perfecting them. They're a hit. Now everyone wants to say, "We have that too!" so they play hurry up getting their version on the market. They also need to create their own way of doing it if there are patents they don't want to pay for using. Plus, they want to improve and leap ahead rather than merely catching up. So then things aren't as good as they used to be. I heard some "new" business adviser guy on TV, though maybe not talking about something as durable as appliances, saying the most important thing was to get the product into people's hands, and then worry about fixing it up later. Ugh!

But, they do fix them up, and they do get them good, and people are finally happy with the products. Until the next wave of keeping up with the Joneses.

hvtech, thanks for asking; I would welcome all advice on which ovens to purchase and will start a new conversation, so as not to hijack comom's topic.

plllog, I agree with you on the cycle of appliance innovation. It is just so slow, though. One of the reasons I'm looking at Thermador is that they have made few changes on their ovens in a long time, and have fixed the problems, and the new owner, BSH, has improved their reliability more like Thermador's good ol' days. So, even though it doesn't have dual convection like other costly brands, I'm not sure they aren't worth a serious look.

Re. the business advisor and getting products into consumer hands: it is obvious that companies do this and it makes no sense to me at all!

the new owner, BSH, has improved their reliability

Where did you get that info, I'm not sure I agree with it. Back when Thermador was an independent company their ovens were great. Pretty reliable and they vented outside which was neat. Then BSH bought them in the late 90s and they took a turn for the worse. Tons of electronics problems, and that ridiculous recall they issued TWICE about big gaps in the oven insulation that could overheat the cabinets and start a fire. And then they were discontinuing their parts like crazy leaving people with unrepairable ovens only a few years old.

Granted, most of the horror stories I've heard about Thermador were with their previous oven lineup, before the Masterpiece series came out. I also heard about some issues with the first gen Masterpiece series, but the latest ones with the J in the model number seem to be pretty trouble free. I don't know of any regulars here who own Thermador ovens, but people passing through have left good reviews. So although I disagree that BSH improved the quality overall after buying Thermador, I certainly think they managed to reverse the downward spiral they started after buying. I do think it's a plus that they haven't changed the oven design in so long, so they've had a lot of time to work out the kinks. One thing I'd check though, is see how you like the controls. When I tried out a Thermador oven I found the touch control panel very unresponsive, which isn't an issue I've had with other glass touch appliances.

hvtech: thanks for correcting my misinformation. I assumed wrongly that BSH purchased Thermador ~2012 and instituted the 2-year parts and labor warranty on products from 1.13 forward when they were bent on reversing their quality and reputation issues. I was generally aware of Thermador's strong rep in the early 90's when we built a house in VA (and I bought a bum Viking range), bad rep when we did a total renovation in SoCal in mid-2000's (and I purchased a low-tech Lacanche), and improving rep after 2012… I will check out the controls -- thanks very much for the heads' up.

If you have more feedback on Bosch, Electrolux or steam-assist ovens in general (I thought you had a KA w/ steam assist, or is that someone else?), please post on my Convex. oven thread.

comom, come back. I just baked three racks of chocolate chip cookies in my Pro M oven and they came out just fine. No uneven baking like yours. I used a rimmed baking sheet and I used the gourmet setting, which you can change the temperature if you want to. I used the racks in the 2, 4, and 6 postions in the oven with the convection setting at 325. I timed the cookies for 12 minutes. Have you talked to Wolf yet. My cookies look great.

Well, you did 12 cookies per sheet, while comom did 35. That could make a difference, since there is much more room for airflow in your case. On the other hand, you wouldn't expect that to affect the ones in the corner. Hmm...

Maybe it's an illusion, but Kalapointer's pans look smaller as well, which would keep the corners away from the fans if they're centered.

Comom27, come back and tell us if you have corrected the problem of the uneven baking.

My recently remodeled kitchen is a working kitchen. It looks good but that is secondary to its function. I am fighting the same baking issue with the Professional Wolf M Electric Double Ovens. The first ovens sounded like trucks revving up when I followed the instructions on first time use. They quickly replaced those with new ovens.

During the holidays I bake many different cookies for gifts and for my family. I use sheets that allow airflow and have low sides. I never use dark baking sheets. By the time I was finished with my holiday baking, I felt my learning curve should have ended with the dozens of cookies baked. I followed the Gourmet setting for cookies and still had uneven and burned edges. Sometimes the cookies in the center of the sheet were not fully baked. I used Convection and Convection Bake and had the same problem. I followed the books recommendation for placement/time/ baking mode, or just adjusting time and temp to see if that worked better. Wolf SubZero had a "service pack" installed (had to due with the convection issue) which didn't help. This problem occurs when cooking other items as well. I entertain a lot and this is a big problem.

My secondary issue is with my freezer. I am curious if anyone has this issue with their Sub Zero column freezer? I have spillover ice. Sometimes ice falls on the floor when the door is opened, which can be problematic, and it regularly spills over into the lower drawers and the bottom of the freezer. Wolf/SubZero had a "service pack" installed in that unit as well and it didn't help.

I am still dealing with Wolf SubZero trying to find solutions to these problems.

2for1: I am still waiting to install my M oven in a new house, but along the way, I have been consulting with the chef of our Wolf/SZ region here in the MW @ Roth Living, Kansas City (re. my Wolf combi-steam oven). I would expect there is a Wolf chef working daily somewhere in your region, too. I would give that a try, as their job is to learn the appliances and teach owners the nuances and workarounds from first hand experience. This would be a lot better than talking to 800 # customer service people or tech support folks, who aren't using your ovens.

Good luck!

Thank you so much for responding. How did you find the chef with whom you work? We had a Roth showroom here with a person trained to give classes who instructed individuals on the use of their product line and offered help with planning. The show room is under construction and won't be open till spring. It has been closed many months. I found, when it came to problems, (first ovens chipping) I had to deal with 800 # and techs. I wasn't aware there were other options. They had chefs put on classes other than the person mentioned but I don't think they provided any other info but the class they were giving.

I would love more info on my combo-steam oven. It is hard to find recipes and instructions. I have searched the web.

Good luck with your M ovens.

I would look up other Roth locations and call the nearest one, explaining that your showroom is closed currently. Perhaps the Kansas City showroom is managed differently, but when I call and ask a technical question, they have referred me to the chef (he did verify that I was in their region and that I had purchased specific models in my first call, and the showroom registered me for future information and so that I can take classes covering my appliances there).

The Wolf convex-steam oven has a cookbook, and it is available online at the Wolf-SZ website, and a showroom may send you one gratis. It is basic, but helpful for a new user.

HTH a bit, anyway!

p.s. the chef in Kansas City told me this morning that he had done 3 racks of something in his class on Saturday and they turned out beautifully even... I mentioned your issue to him then. Good luck getting some useful advice!

I think I will try to call him. Something is wrong. I am using standard cookie sheets and if I cooked them any less they wouldn't be done at all. Thank you again for your assistance.

I did receive the steam/convec cook book. I have a bit of trouble judging how to convert to steam combo cooking. Need to get to a class.

"2for1

I used Convection and Convection Bake and had the same problem."

Are you saying you have a "convection bake" mode?

Have you tried standard bake?

edit-referring to post about the M

2for1: Some confusion between when you are using your M oven and when you are using your steam-convex oven. We are discussing 3 racks in your M oven, right?

kitchengirl

Yes I was writing about the 3 racks in the M ovens. I have double ovens and the issues are the same in both upper and lower.

You mentioned earlier about the Combo Steam Conv oven cookbook. I do have the cookbook for the combo.For anyone interested, I have some good comments about my new appliances. I love my 30 inch SubZero column Fridge. It is fantastic! And my Wolf 6 burner gas cook top is great. I have the heavy duty Wolf stainless hood and really like that as well. I know I will enjoy using my Wolf combo steam oven. I just need to take a class to be more comfortable using it.

Wekick

I typed too quickly and didn't proof read. I don't have a Convection Bake mode. In the Gourmet mode there is a Baked Goods heading that lets you scroll to various foods and cookies are one of them. You can choose 1, 2,or 3 racks. With the Gourmet Cookie selection choosing 3 rack cooking, the cookies turned out like the Convection cookies did.

Thanks for your comments which allowed me to correct that.

2for1, baking has enough variables and while a convection fan is marketed as making temperatures even, it does in some ways but can create other hot spots. By moving air, especially if you have a heating element like the M and any "true" or "European", it increases the rate of heat transfer to whatever is in the way of the airflow causing the hot spots. Think of a hair dryer.

This can be on the exposed part of what you are cooking(tops of cookies)or on the cookware causing heat to build up. If you look at the blue diagram of the airflow on the M up thread the air flow is pretty strong along the sides and diffuses as it travels. Cookie sheet sides, angle of the cookie sheet and proximity to the airflow all can block or change airflow. If it hits the cookie sheet and it is dark or steel, the heat is not transmitted away from where it hits so the heat builds up making a hot spot. Other cookware like glass or corningware have poor heat transfer properties so will hot spot too. Manufacturers try to deal with this by adding baffles, having multiple fan speeds or by periodically reversing the direction of the fan. They might alternate top, bottom and back elrments to keep the direct heat effect down. It helps but may not totally alleviate the problem on the bakeware to use something that conducts heat well like aluminum. Wolf has a page on its website about unevenness with convection and says to buy good pans, naming three brands that offer "good pans" but they don't mention what makes a pan "good". In this case it would be one that conducts heat well, aluminum. One brand they name has some pans that would not be good because they are aluminized steel so not enough aluminum to help. It will also help to have smaller pans to keep out of that side airflow.

I asked on the other post if you tried standard bake because it would be a good idea to see what the oven does on standard bake.

Wekick

Standard baking is ok-not great but acceptable.

I appreciate the information you took the time to send. I use smaller pans, mostly Wilton sheets or heavier aluminum pans with short sides. I don't know if those are aluminized steel. There is no name on them. I never use dark pans. I space the cookies and don't over crowd the pans. The L's worked with these as well as the large blue cookie sheets that Wolf sold for those ovens. With the L's there was a learning curve, but I am way past that with the M ovens.

With standard baking you can only bake on one rack at a time. So with double ovens, that is 2 racks of cookies. Can you imagine how long it takes to bake from 10 to 16 batches of cookies for the holidays baking 2 sheets at a time? I have been baking cookies for the holidays for years before I ever had Wolf ovens. I need multiple rack cooking as well on Sundays when the families are here or when I entertain.

I was asked to send images to Wolf and I sent both standard and convection results. Haven't heard anything yet. At this point I am at a loss as to how to solve this.

The blue Wolf trays are just called "sheet metal" on their website so most likely some sort of steel. Aluminized steel is much heavier for the same sized pan in aluminum.

You can bake with standard bake with more than one rack but it just requires more switching around. Did you use the convection bake on the L? That has been the more useful of the convection modes on my Wolf oven. It has a slower fan which they dropped on the M.

If you look at Wolf's own videos, they seem to have problems too. As they are touting how evenly the oven cooks, they are pulling this out of the oven. These are screen shots of the video OT the "whole meal in " video.

The cobbler on the bottom row is more away from the strong airflow on the sides and does not have the greater degree of browning along the side.

They would have to substantially change the way the fans work to avoid those air currents. They would need to have a slower speed or reverse periodically.

To eliminate the hot spots, if you can't position the pans out of the areas of the oven with the strongest air flow and you can't modify the airflow by baffles or slower fan speed, try turning off the convection part of the time and rotate or reposition the pans.

If you liked the L, I would try to get them to switch it back or buy the M back. I almost think some high end ovens have more trouble getting things right because they tinker unnecessarily with things trying to have something unique like the corner convection tower or persist, for 10 years with looks, like blue enamel when they don't have it perfected.

wekick

Yes I did and finally found what works and when to adjust time etc.

I have tried to use two racks for baking on bake mode but was not successful. However I didn't expect that I had to switch things around. I sent images of the convection mode but they wanted biscuits baked on bake mode. The package said to bake for 5 to 10 minutes at 425 and I only baked them for 5 because they looked ready to remove. The evenness in appearance was better but there were still "hot" spots with some and some with less browning. When I randomly opened a few they they weren't done. I was able to work with the L to achieve the results needed but I know there is something wrong with these ovens. Your comments make sense. Why reinvent the wheel? We did an extensive kitchen remodel and decided to include what we thought were the best of available appliances and no longer have the L ovens.

I agree with you about the blue enamel. It looks good but does chip.

After solving this problem, there remains the problem with our subzero column freezer. As mentioned, It "spits" ice and ice sometimes falls out when the door is opened. It also collects in the lower two drawers which I have to periodically clean out. The most concerning part of this problem is sometimes we are not aware that the ice is on the floor which can be hazardous. If a number of pieces fall we hear it. If the tv is on and people are talking and one or broken pieces fall, we don't hear that.

If we don't hear back soon we will call.

I am still fighting this issue. Would the E series be a better bet?

2for1, just a thought re. cookies: do you have rimless pans for cookies, with just an angled end to grab when moving the sheet? Perhaps air flow will be more even specifically for cookies, which are low (perhaps lower than the side of a sheet pan), when you are trying to use multiple racks in the oven, this may help some.

The OP had rimless sheets.

kitchen girl and wekick,

I have used both but only one kind at a time and they are not overly large. I used three rimless with the grab section on one side, and 3 with the short sides. It really didn't make much of a difference. I don't put as many cookies on a sheet however. I need to leave room to move my spatula when I remove them.

Thanks

Will definitely report when we have moved in and returned from a very-needed vacation and I have begun baking again... Sorry that won't be until July, 2for1.

I will go to Roth for the steam-convection oven class AND M-series oven class this weekend. Will try to ask the chef about his experience with multi-rack baking!

Thank You. I hesitate to call a chef out of the area because he/she would have enough to deal with in his own area. And our Roth won't be up and running for a while.

Enjoy your vacation! Thanks kitchengirl

I have made so many cookies and have thrown 75% out! I can’t figure out why it bakes the way that it does. Truly disheartened!