It has a lot to do with the variety of rose and when that rose was introduced in some cases. Many of the roses from the late 40s through the 80s and maybe even a littler later where never tested as own root roses because they weren't going to be produced that way. Almost all mass produced roses at that time were grafted so why test them own root since that would take more time and money to do. As a result there is no way to know how any of those varieties will do on their own roots. Some of them do just great but some of them do not have the vigor to do well at all own root. It's a try and see what happens game now for those roses.

I would recommend babying HT bands in pots for at least a growing season before deciding if they're vigorous enough to go in the ground. As has been said by Seil and others in the past, roses which were produced primarily by budding/grafting simply haven't gone through the test of being on their own roots. Some will be fine, others not so much. If you keep them potted and notice their roots quickly fill their containers, that's a good sign. Of course, being out in the garden means facing root competition from other plants, so there's still another test. But if the rose limps along in a container with nutrient-rich potting mix, that doesn't bode well for how it would do planted in the ground.

Roses Unlimited produces great gallon-sized plants own-root, and I think it might be safe to assume that those they offer will do well own-root. It might be more hit-or-miss getting HTs as band-sized plants, since in many cases, they're just a step above rooted cuttings. A vigorous young band can look the same as an older wimpy band -- but you won't know which you have when you first open the box. Once they reach gallon-size it's easier to gauge.

Another thing to look for is anything sold more for "bloom novelty" than anything else. Often, those "unusual" colors were selected by breeders ahead of their vigor, figuring that rootstock would correct that fault.

Finally, look at availability from multiple own-root nurseries. While there are roses which are uncommon for other reasons, generally if you see a particular HT available from several own-root nurseries, that would indicate that it does reasonably well without rootstock. One of my Facebook rose-friends is Christopher Gon, and he has a very select "genre" of roses he collects -- warm-colored HTs from the 1960s and 1970s. He often goes out of his way tracking down out-of-commerce roses for budwood to be custom-budded and sent back to him as maidens. Some he's tried own-root and they've been abysmal failures. Keep in mind that he keeps his roses in pots -- so if they do poorly own-root for him, they'd likely be total duds in the ground. And this is why many roses in his collection aren't easily found at own-root nurseries.

:-)

~Christopher

My opinion is that roses were intentionally made hard to propagate--that there were people getting rich of off roses that didn't trust patent law to protect their rights--so if they had the choice between selling roses that could "self propagate" and ones that required grafting to rootstock, they would sell the ones that required a rootstock. As evidence, why did rambling roses like Dorothy Perkins go away? My guess is that they were too easy to propagate, making them poor choices for retail sales.

Dorothy Perkins did not go away - HMF lists 4 pages of nurseries who carry it.

Jackie

I had an old Peace rose (I know it was grafted becasue !@#$%^&* Dr. Huey suckers kept coming up) which we think was planted by my DH's grandfather in the late 1940s. Made gorgeous blooms, and had sported into a climber. Anyway, I now have a bush which is a rooted cutting of that old one, so I know it is on its own roots. We lost the old one, and I managed to get just this one cutting as it was dying. Good news is that the new bush is blooming, putting out climbing canes, and seems to be doing great. So, I guess you can write down Peace as a rose which does well on its own roots.

Jackie

Hybrid tea roses, as a group, do tend to be more difficult than any of the other rose groups to grow own-root, but some of them are more vigorous growing than others. I have found that if a rose variety seems to grow more vigorously, that is a good indicator it will probably do better growing own-root.

Yes, you can still buy Dorothy Perkins, it is quite the survivor--there are bushes over 100 years old in Elizabeth Park. But, what about the class of roses called ramblers? I talked to someone who took cuttings of DP who wondered why it wouldn't repeat--I'm sure there is interest in repeating ramblers that isn't really being met by what can be purchased in local nurseries.

There are a few repeating Ramblers, but because their repeat-flowering somewhat tames their "rambling", some are lumped into other classes, like Hybrid Musks.

:-)

~Christopher

I don't think it was an intentional thing to keep people from propagating roses. The intention was to produce the biggest crop of roses for sale at the lowest possible costs. It was cheaper to produce a plant big enough for sale by grafting it to a root stock that pushed its size in just a couple of years rather than to care for own root cuttings for many years until they got big enough to sell. The breeders knew this so they didn't bother to test for own root vigor. Besides, it meant that they could also get their roses to market quicker.

I'm sure it's possible but I doubt that non-rooting varieties are intentionally bred. I do agree that some of the oddball roses aren't the strongest growers but then they're also ones that people often really like so they're grafted and sold like hot cakes anyway. Whether the oddball traits are what make them wimpy growers or not I don't know but it seems plausible. Since many of the traits that make a rose an oddball are genetic mutations of some kind it's probably that that is why the rose is not a vigorous grower.

I will also add Frederic Mistral to the above list. It hasn't bloomed yet, but is looking good. It came from RU.

Virtually NO rose, still (2015) hybridized in Europe is tested as own root. None that I know of although there might be exceptions from minor (in terms of volume) hybridizers. Own root is still mainly a US thing. So if you are buying ANY rose hybridized from the late-1800s or so until now in Europe by any of the well known hybridizers you can be pretty sure it was not originally meant to be planted as own root. Τhat of course does not mean it can't be good on its own roots, it just means that it is a matter of trial-an-error and the trial has to be done either by the nursery that sells it to you or by yourselves. The original breeder almost certainly has not performed this trial. I'm just now perusing the David Austin 2014-15 European catalog and they do mention proudly how all the thousand or so initially selected seedlings are budded and then repeatedly thinned down over years until the handfull that are finally selected hit the market each year.

PS. OGRs are often good on their roots NOT because they were meant to be so (apart from the really old ones) but because the ones that have survived until know, often outside the nursery trade by grandmas planting sticks cut from their neighbour's garden, they had to be tough.

All of my HTs are grafted. I only have one that is own root and that was a mystery rose from Rogue Valley (I believe it's About Face). I still have it in a pot, but still, it's growing much slower than other grafted HTs that I have had in pots. I usually only get OGRs as own root.

I have Chrysler Imperial own root, and it is a feeble grower so far. Souv. de Baden-Baden is doing fine.

Good discussion, I purchased a tiny own root Dick Clark last year, the subject of this discussion, it was from a 3 inch pot, much smaller than even a band sized rose, I just measured it yesterday in my garden, it is 5 feet wide by 4.5 feet tall, loaded with blooms all summer and doing well.

Why is Dick Clark mainly sold grafted then? Grafted onto what? What root system would give it more vigor than it has naturally? That is one rose that should never be grafted really. I also just purchased two grafted Dick Clark bushes for $2 each from a big box store on sale. Will be watching to see how they do compared to the one own root one.

I think some hybridizers just grow everything grafted without checking if they are viable on their own roots.

I received 6 own-root roses in bands from Rogue Valley about 5 or 6 weeks ago and immediately put them in the ground. Mister Lincoln is growing well and has already bloomed. Charles de Gaulle is looking good and has a bud about to open. Smokey, Sunny Side Up and Henri Martin are struggling but all show new growth. There was a Mystery rose and it is doing well and appears to be a shrub, but doesn't have any buds yet. I'm hoping they continue to progress and survive their 1st winter in CT.

John A

'I think some hybridizers just grow everything grafted without checking if they are viable on their own roots.'

Yes, indeed that's true. The explanation was given by someone above. No need to check viability on own roots if commerce is going to grow and distribute the plant grafted anyways.. Commerce is doing this mainly, but not solely, driven by cost factors.

Tons of roses are produced for places like HD, Lowes, Walmart, etc. They aren't going to handle tiny band own root plants in their stores. They want either packaged bare roots or big potted plants. Their customers don't want to buy tiny plants that they have to baby and fuss over either. They want to be able to stick it in the ground, get instant gratification with growth and blooms and more or less forget about it. You can't do that with a small own root band. So the growers that supply these types of places grow grafted plants that will get big quick and cheap so that they can supply the big box stores with big plants that their customers will be willing to purchase. It's all about the money and not much else.

Those of us who are enthusiasts are willing to spend the extra bucks and take the needed time to nurture those small plants into big beautiful rose bushes. We're also willing to search for the smaller specialty nurseries that carry specific roses that we want and order them. John Doe, who wants a few roses in his landscaping, isn't going to do that. And there are far more of them than us!

True Seil but the point here is, with many roses such as the Dick Clark example I gave, these roses you see in the big box stores have been grown for a season or longer and Dick Clark would make a huge bush that would provide that instant gratification for big box store buyers in that period of time on its own roots. So why graft it? It is more expensive that way actually.

Because there is no way to know if a variety is good on its own roots until you grow it that way. Since they aren't tested as such, and the growers already have an efficient grafting operation in place, they just stick with what they know will work. Changing over costs money in the short term so they don't do it.

Well I get that, my point is, hybridizers should be testing them on their own roots that way if it is a rose that is good on its roots, then no grafting occurs. A lot of new roses are own root only and that's a good trend that should continue. I don't know of anyone growing for instance, Knock Outs on grafts and the same should apply to other bushes like Dick Clark which are clearly vigorous on their own roots.

I think within the last 3 decades large nursery growers have begun seeing the virtues of own-root, and rose breeders are now focusing on trying to make sure the plant will have vigorous growth on its own. The downside is that many of the classic hybrid teas which had been bred to perfection are sort of getting left behind, to some extent, as breeders are looking at new lines. It can be hard to retain the shapely form and idyllic traits of the hybrid teas while further hybridizing them to have better vigor on their own roots. I fear something may be lost, and many of the modern roses that have come out are just not as attractive as the classic ones.

When Knock outs first came out, they advertised that their grafts could take very cold weather.

Some of my Bailey and J&P roses were purchased as 3 gallon own root roses--there was a big push toward own root roses about a decade ago. There were concerns about the changing work force--that the people who did the grafting couldn't work forever. One of them was Rio Samba. Sort of a mixed blessing--it died back to the ground one year--and didn't do much for an entire year.

One of my favorite Hybrid Tea Roses is 'Gardens Of The World.' I wish it had never been grafted to begin with -- because of course, it acquired RMV.
But even with that, it grows every bit as well on its own roots as it does budded. Lovely thing.

Knock Outs are most definitely sold grafted...by the billions! But you're right, there has recently been a change in the way growers are producing roses to some extent. As I stated originally, sometime in the 90s there was a change of thought for what ever reason and own root has become a lot easier to find. Some major players, like J&P, are offering them but it is still only a portion of their products. Part of it is a change of trends and part of it is because the technique of bud grafting is becoming a dying art. If you can't find people with the skills to do the job you find another way to do it. And as Parker said, there may be casualties in the process. A lot of really beautiful roses, that unfortunately are not vigorous on their own roots, will get lost because growers won't be bothered with them. If it can't produce a salable sized plant in the allotted amount of time they won't grow it.

Jeri, I adore that rose but, sad to say, it just didn't winter well for me.

I had no idea that knock outs were grafted. Well, I've only been growing roses for 3 years so no surprise there. Again, that's another example of unnecessary grafting. 8 inch potted knock outs I purchased and planted during the big box fall sale last year in November are already 3x3 now, blooming like crazy and still growing.

I agree that it would be a shame to lose those rose cultivars that cannot grow fast on their own roots. I'm growing a Ketchup & Mustard band, it has not grown at all since planted last fall, this one clearly needs to be grafted.

"Bud the one's that need help and keep the one's that do well own root as own root or grafted. Give the buyer a choice."

That might just be too much for the one track minded producers to do lol.

Guys, it's much much cheaper to produce budded roses than own roots. Here in Europe and in the Middle East there are specialist nurseries who produce rootstock seedlings as species roses are used which come true from seed. These are sold to the hybridizers and rose producers when 1 year old. They plant these with machines in the field in the Fall. Then in early Summer they bud them. A mature mother plant can provide hundreds of buds. Not the same with cuttings. A competent budder, who is usually 'self employed' paid by the piece and comes from Eastern Europe, can bud at least 1000 roses per day. Success is almost 100% guarranteed. Then the plant is left in the field for another year and then uprooted by machine and kept in cold storage until fall when it can be sold either retail or to wholesalers or to retail nurseries who will pot them up and sell them come Spring.

End result you have a plant produced cheaply and on a rootstock that you know is generally suitable for the field conditions of your target market.

Of course, when in doubt, follow the money and you will get your answer

Ken and everyone, we do trial Kordes own root before releasing them for commercial propagation. Dark Desire is an HT and yes it is good on its own roots. Not all roses are good as own roots and it can be it is weak or that it is overly vigorous- it is just trial and error to know which ones are good. Too bad you did not take the Wedding Bells (another HT) as it is also good on its own roots. What I likes about the own root roses that were at Lowe's this past season is that they were field grown for a year which made them quite comparable in size to many field grown budded roses. As for good Kordes HTs -Beverly performs well as an own root as does Grande Amore, Winter Sun and Sunny Sky. I think you will see more roses available as own roots as the commercial growers see the demand.

I only have 2 own root HTs, Mme Carolina Testout and La France. Mme Carolina Testout is in her 3rd year here (purchased as a band), it has one cane about 6', no bloom yet; La France is new, planted in July( 1 gal plant), it has one bloom right now. Why is Mme CT not blooming? Anyone knows?

HMF says that Mme Caroline Testout is only hardy to zone 7 - perhaps it does not like your climate. On the other hand, HMF says it only gets 4 feet tall, so maybe you have the climbing version? If it is a climber, it could take 3-4 years until it gets big enough to decide it is time to bloom.

I have a climbing MCT which I know is on its own roots because I rooted it. It did not bloom much the first 4 years, but then - watch out! Here is a pic

I have the climber type. Love yours, so pretty!

Jacqueline, that's gorgeous!