Thanks virgo for that info. So that is the right dimension 2x2,and they come that way and don't have to be cut lengthwise. I suppose 8ft would be a great height for most sunflowers, thanks for another good idea. :-) I realize that squirrels are very smart. I wonder why that is? Why were 'they' made so smart? [g] They can't be smarter than people can they? I was watching Backyard Habitat on TV yesterday and they were helping to deerproof a yard. They mixed up onions/garlic/hot peppers and made a spray for some of the plants. I wondered why something like that wouldn't do the trick? The Joe Pye Weed sounds like a great idea, and doesn't it bloom about the same time? Thanks Katy and virgo. :-) Katy, I guess I shouldn't laugh about the pumpkins but can I grin a little? [g] That was very thoughtful of you to provide a snack for your friends, but I guess you didn't know what rude guests they are! So did they eat the pumpkin or did they just get the seeds out? Katy I used those milk crates filled with leaves over the hydrangeas and now the snow is covering them over fine. So I hope we get more snow to cover over all the pumpkin carcasses in the yard. You could end up with yard art. [g] I don't know, with all the squirrely stories I hear, I am starting to think Wendey has the right idea, a trained squirrel dog. :-) adam

Thanks for all the kind words...I was aiming for a fall garden in that area. The only disappointment has been that callicarpa Profusion didn't do well. It grew well and flowered, but never set any berries. There also some agastaches, butterfly bushes, vitex, yellow barberries, yellow daylilies, blue siberian iris, and japanese maples (Glowing Embers), rudbeckia triloba, blue shadow fothergila and camellia sasanquas in this area...but right now the helianthus and salvia are stealing the show. It's a new bed, and I wonder what it will look like in the years to come...the woodies will take some time to show up. I have taken pictures of it throughout this year so I can track it's progress...it looked so skimpy in the spring I can hardly believe it's the same area...I love watching a garden come into its own.

Thanks for your help Brian. I learned from another trader how to collect seed from Narrow-leaved sunflower/Swamp sunflower - Helianthus angustifolius. I came across a member's Trade Page when she responded to my Post: Have Sourwood tree seeds, thank goodness! I love these yellow October flowers, added two other smaller varieties with double flowers to my Wish List, so I knew somebody had to have the answer. When I e-mailed, asked how she did it she responded, "The swamp sunflower seeds -- they will be ready 3-4 weeks at the earliest after the flowers are done blooming. Just take off the seedhead and crumble -- the seeds are small, dark and slender." Now I can fulfill a couple pre-arranged trades and feel comfortable offering them for trade again next year! What would I do without the collective experience of folk on GW? Happy Holidays! Katie

As you have probably figured out, I am definitely in the "ah" category. But here comes the 'but".... Once I am done thinking outside the box, my box usually collapses! That is, my creative changes/ideas typically fail because I lack the experience to compensate for this or that. Hopefully time and practice will change that! So I am: "Ah! [insert creativity here] But....but....but...ARRRRRRRRRRGH!" :-) francy (still trying to finish knitting one sweater and one sock so I can attempt to sew a top that has--EEK--darts and gathers and sleeves OH MY!)