Trevor, I do not live in Boston. Not sure why you thought that. Has this oven changed in some way since the use and care has changed or that note from the manufacturer?

______

"Russ

Okay, call me dumb but.. why would you have food in an oven when it is pre-heating?"

I would never call anybody dumb for asking a question. Everybody cooks differently. This is not the issue for me but some people do like to place food in the oven and start it while they are away. Some ovens have a delay bake so dinner is ready when you get home. This becomes an issue for the connoisseurian according to them if the door is left open for a long time or you must turn the temperature up by 150F.

"Your statement of how food can be burned when the oven is pre-heating does not make sense to me."

Again this is not my statement but was in the use and care manual and in the note from the manufacturer that Trevor posted in reponse to some complaints. Other manufacturers do have similar warnings about putting food in while preheating because they want the preheat to be fast so the heat is intense. If buying an oven I would want a "fast preheat" to be optional. That would be a personal preference. This is why it is so important to read use and care manuals and again can show how differently ovens can be designed. There are huge differences in ovens now.

"Secondly, if the oven gets really hot really fast during pre-heating, but takes longer to warm back up when you have the door open "for extended periods of time" that would seem to me, again.. call me dumb but this is how I see it... would seem to me to be working as intended to keep you from burning your food."

This is exactly right and it is a safety mechanism. This is the problem for me if I set the oven at 400F and it drifts down slowly as I am baking cookies or trays of appetizers that need to cook quickly and require the door to be opened frequently. The temp might be 300F and no ability to raise until it gets to 250F then boom it goes into rapid preheat I prefer a regular thermostat that kicks in with a more gentle heat when the temperature drops only 10-25F. A long time to warm back up might be an hour.

"I have researched this to hell and back again, and Trevor can attest to it as I bugged him to no end with countless emails and tons of calls to him as well as Capital and the other stove places I called. I saw nothing that made this stove stand out as having any sort of malfunctions outside of ordering problems that could be and were resolved."

"Again, just trying to understand here as none of the complains you are listing sound to me to be out of the norm."

If all this is acceptable to you then it sounds like you have made a good choice for you. It is not a malfunction and it is the way it is designed. And yes Trevor does like the range. I would assure you though that there are some for whom this would be unacceptable. The "complaints" above are from the manufacturer, not me and includes their, the manufacturer's response.

The temp shown will be the set temp not current temp.

Well, on my current 600 dollar stove, it tells me the temp I set when I set it and then, when it starts the pre-heat, it tells me the temp as it climbs. AFTER it hits the set temp.. it stays there. That seems normal to me.

Wek - heh.. that is a saying here "call me dumb".. so, was not meaning you would call me that, just a saying :P

I am pretty OCD.. I would never put food in a stove and set it to start cooking hours later, and I do not cook till the stove is up to the temp.

So, if you open the door to the oven, and the temp drops, it will not kick back in until it drops 150 degrees? That seems a little strange. No idea if a $600 oven works the same way, never really paid attention to that.... maybe it does and I never noticed, I just kept on cooking :P

Seems a little strange that an oven would not sense the temp had dropped 50 degrees or so and stabilized and then kick off some more heat to get it back up to speed, so to speak....but I really do not know how a stove works like that.. I just work around whatever it does.. heh

Russ

i spoke to the head engineer. He said they work on 3 main types of heat. (hope i get this right)

1) Pre Heat

2) Maintenance heating

3) Rapid Recovery.

The reasoning behind the way its designed along with many other ranges was a little complicated to listen to and then post so he said he would post accordingly

@drw4013.... I did reply to your direct email.

"i spoke to the head engineer. He said they work on 3 main types of heat. (hope i get this right)

1) Pre Heat

2) Maintenance heating

3) Rapid Recovery.

The reasoning behind the way its designed along with many other ranges was a little complicated to listen to and then post so he said he would post accordingly"

I'm looking forward to seeing what he says. Just from looking at that, it seems to basically work like most ovens, with the exception of adding in rapid recovery.

I think the million dollar question here is:

If the oven temperature drops less than 150 degrees, will it be able to recover back to the setpoint in a reasonable amount of time, using just the maintenance heating?

Russ, I have never seen this range in action, but based on the pictures in the manual they do seem to be using the same control board manufacturer that Maytag did before the Whirlpool buyout. If I remember correctly those ovens would show the temperature increase in 5 degree increments during preheat, and then stay at the set temperature.

Yep, I have no doubt it would work like any other stove, I am just enjoying any CC discussion.. lol.. I get to learn more each time.

R

"If the oven temperature drops less than 150 degrees, will it be able to recover back to the setpoint in a reasonable amount of time, using just the maintenance heating?"

Do you not think Capital answered this below?

So let me get this straight. You read all of Capital's admonitions about not opening the door, all of their warnings about the preheat, all of the communications from the factory about complaints and their response and the fact that it works on logic vs a thermostat and you still think it works the same as other ovens? Not the same as any oven I have used ---except Dacor Discovery which has been improved since I used it. It now only has to drop 50F before the recovery kicks in. Maybe capital will do that

You are going by a picture in a manual that looks like it from something used years ago rather than by what capital states now?

Do you think Capital will say something different now than what capital said here? VVVVV

"COMPLAINT: My oven doesn’t recover quickly when I reset the temperature to a higher setting (+150° F) or leave the door open for overly extended periods of time and takes too long to regain the set temperature.

a. SETTING: No quick recovery. Oven will cycle normally despite large temperature drops due to the door being left open, or the oven set temperature being reset to a much higher temperature. The recovery time can be very long for large differentials between oven temp and set temperature"

How would you know what to believe? I asked if there was something new in the design that would change this and got no answer....so far.

_________

I am just an observer and have nothing to profit. I think most people considering spending that much money would want to know what capital says about their own product. Keep in mind they have deleted most of this from the use and care manual. For anyone considering a capital electric oven wall or range read and make of it what you will. If you prefer to think all ovens work the same in spite of evidence to the contrary, you might be very surprised if you educate yourself in an way that is independent of marketing bias. There are all kinds of things incorporated in design to build a better bread box. Some are more successful than others.

Drw4013,

My Wolf DF does show the temperature after it is set as it warms up. It goes between the set temp and the actual temp. Once it reaches temp, it does not show the actual temp unless you turn it off and turn it up and then it will show the actual temp alternating with the set temp until it reaches the new temp.

You really need an oven thermometer to see what is really going on in the middle of the oven. I have had all kinds of ovens gas and electric over the many years I have been cooking and never needed an oven thermometer until this current go around with expensive ovens. Looking at many brands of ovens, it kind of reminds me of "the Emporer's new clothes" for all kinds of reasons.

I really do like my Electrolux wall oven. It keeps a very narrow temperature range no matter how often I open the door. I can use the fan on low or high speed. Pretty even heat. I can bake all the tiers of a cake without changing them all around. I will give them a half turn if need be. Very straight forward oven yet some of the nice features of newer technology.

That communication from the factory Trevor posted wasn't very clearly worded (in my opinion), but it is meant to be a "competitive comparison" of sorts.

COMPLAINT: My oven doesn’t recover quickly when I reset the temperature to a higher setting (+150° F) or leave the door open for overly extended periods of time and takes too long to regain the set temperature.

a. SETTING: No quick recovery. Oven will cycle normally despite large temperature drops due to the door being left open, or the oven set temperature being reset to a much higher temperature. The recovery time can be very long for large differentials between oven temp and set temp.

COMPLAINT: My oven goes into a quick recovery mode when I reset the temperature (+150° F) or <b>leave the door open for excessive periods of time</b>, and burns my food.

a. SETTING: Quick recovery is set. Oven will go into PRE-HEAT mode if the difference between the oven temp and set temp is 150° or more. This reduces recovery time if the door is left open or if the set temp is increased.

The bolded text above refers to the way other manufacturers do it. Notice that it is ONLY talking about temperature differences greater than 150 degrees. Any modern oven will take a considerable amount of time to recover more than 150 degrees without rapid recovery.

The italicized text refers to the way Capital does it. Basically, all that blurb is saying is that with temperature differences of more than 150 degrees, Capital will be much quicker than other ovens at recovering.

It says nothing about how Capital performs vs. other ovens at temperature differentials of less than 150 degrees.

Whether people like Capital's behavior here or not will vary. I would personally prefer that an oven not do that. The manual is very clear as to what the preheat mode consists of. The broil and convection elements will turn on, even if those modes are not selected. I would not want those elements turning on if I did not explicitly set them to. That said, this would not be a deal-breaker for me if I wanted to buy this range, since as Trevor's test demonstrates it takes leaving the oven door open for quite a bit to get that kind of temperature loss.

You read all of Capital's admonitions about not opening the door

Every oven manual I've ever read says to minimize door openings during cooking.

all of their warnings about the preheat

I actually think more oven manuals should have this warning in them, since even if the oven does not have rapid recovery, it is possible to engage the preheat mode during cooking if the cycle is cancelled by accident and then started again. Clearly though Capital felt it important to include that warning since they used rapid recovery.

all of the communications from the factory about complaints

Complaints from actual owners who were having baking issues with the range? As I said before I would be curious to see those if they exist since they would help me understand how the range actually functions.

the fact that it works on logic vs a thermostat

Not many ovens have thermostats anymore, most are controlled by digital logic of some sort.

Do you think Capital will say something different now than what capital said here? VVVVV

No I don't think they will contradict themselves, but I do think they will give more detailed information that will help make clear how the oven actually works.

You are going by a picture in a manual that looks like it from something used years ago rather than by what capital states now?

That had nothing to do with my points about the oven algorithm, I only mentioned it to try and answer Russ' question about whether it displays the temperature while preheating.

Keep in mind they have deleted most of this from the use and care manual

I just downloaded it and it looked the same as always. The bit about the 150 degrees was still there (though it did contradict another page where it said 100 degrees). The current PDF on their website was published in October 2013 which I believe is well before this whole discussion started.

If you prefer to think all ovens work the same in spite of evidence to the contrary

I'm not at all trying to say that all ovens work the same. All I'm saying is that as of now, I can't find enough information to draw a conclusion about how this oven performs relative to others.

What I'm really hoping the engineer will answer when he comes along is, what exactly the "maintain" mode does. Does it pulse the element at a constant rate like your Dacor? Or does it cycle on and off based on temperature? How effective is it at recovering from temperature drops that aren't enough to activate rapid recovery?

Wekick, with all due respect, you keep stating you are just an observer, but you sure do spend a LOT of time trying to convince folks that the CC is defective.

You have posted a lot of info that has been posted and reposted numerous times and given about as much insight into what may or may not be an issue as possible. It's time to let folks decide.

"I" make no money off anyone buying a CC, and I found your input insightful and informative, but now you are going so far past that as to sound like you DO have something to gain by getting people to not buy a CC.

Again.. just an outsider's opinion. I do not own a stove atm.. lol. I am in an apartment waiting for my new home to be built. I am beating a dead horse into the ground just as you are.

btw.. I like your input.. I am just saying, the real proof, I think, is from the people that own them and use them daily. Let's hear from those, not just regurgitate the complaint posts that keep getting refuted and do not make sense as, again.. imo.. the stove would not work in the manner you state...it could not cook, and clearly.. it cooks.

Russ

"but it is meant to be a "competitive comparison" of sorts."

I will agree it is worded oddly but I'm not following your line of thought. There is no reference to other brands of ovens. It is about two specific complaints Capital has received. It is their response to those complaints. Read it in the context of the original post above # 2. You could ask the engineers when they post if you can see the complaints.

"Not many ovens have thermostats anymore, most are controlled by digital logic of some sort."

What other brands are not controlled with thermostats?

Warnings are not in every manual because they are not necessary. In fact there are brands that boast no preheating necessary for things like casseroles and as I mentioned above, ovens that allow a delayed setting. Food tolerates being in the preheat without burning. There is some baking done with the door left open if you have electric ovens, to allow humidity escape. This is no problem if your oven runs on a thermostat and won't trigger an unwanted intense recovery.

"Russ

Wekick, with all due respect, you keep stating you are just an observer, but you sure do spend a LOT of time trying to convince folks that the CC is defective."

"keep stating" ? Once.

Those are your words "malfunctioning" and "defective". If you have read my posts, this is not the case. This is a different technology for controlling temperature. It works exactly as it is designed to work. It will be great for some but as with every appliance you need to understand how it works and how that relates to the way you cook. This is true whether you buy a BS, Wolf, Elux, Meile, gas, electric, steam or microwave oven.

"You have posted a lot of info that has been posted and reposted numerous times and given about as much insight into what may or may not be an issue as possible. It's time to let folks decide."

And yet there are some who still draw this conclusion

"Yep, I have no doubt it would work like any other stove, "

No Doubt?

If it is posted numerous times, it is only in response to the suggestions that someone should buy this oven. Is there a reason that you think people should not be made aware of what is in the user's guide along with the suggestion to buy?

In the discussions, I would have expected somewhere along the line a precise, defined explanation of how the oven works if it is different from what is outlined in the manual or the communication from the manufacturer or has been redesigned in some way.

My guess is that most folks have read how it works, decided if they like the technology and have already have moved on.

"the real proof, I think, is from the people that own them and use them daily. Let's hear from those, not just regurgitate the complaint posts that keep getting refuted and do not make sense as"

Yes it is very helpful to have real users and specifically how they use the oven. I don't know what you mean by "complaint posts" as the only ones I know of are over on CH and were not refuted in any way. You can't refute people's personal experiences whether it be Trevor's positive experiences or the posters over on CH. This is why it is important to know how they are used to see if their experiences are relevant to you.

" the stove would not work in the manner you state...it could not cook, and clearly.. it cooks"

Again, it is not what I state but what Capital states. Of course it can cook, especially if you heed the warnings in the guide. Not everyone wants those constraints. If you have read, made up your mind as you seem to have done and see no issues, you should buy that oven and Happy Cooking!"

It is interesting that when I had my Dacors, you could only find a few vague complaints that the oven was slow online. One or two others here had more severe issues like I did relating to the type of cooking we did. Many were happy with the way that the ovens worked. I talked to many people in person who owned this oven including an appliance dealer and instructors at a cooking school. My son has a job that requires him to be in a lot of kitchens and when he saw Dacor he would ask too. They all, except the cooking school thought the oven worked ok, again with a few saying it ran "slow". The cooking school had tried to have it "repaired" multiple times as I did thinking that something was wrong. The ovens never could be repaired because it was simply the way they were designed to work and for most people it was adequate. I had no idea what was happening until I got an oven thermometer and was shocked. The cooking school and I would have loved to know how these ovens worked before they came into our possession. It would have saved us and Dacor a lot of time and expense.

Okay, I've only skimmed this but I want to answer Russ's question.

Russ: why would you have food in an oven when it is pre-heating?

Me: There are many kinds of things to make in ovens that require a cold start. The largest category is eggy baking, which includes everything from choux puffs to traditional pound cake. Not only do these things require a cold start, they also require no rapid preheat.

I have used ovens that throw into rapid reheat mode when the temperature has dipped due to opening the door for basting or whatnot, and it does indeed ruin the food.

I would never buy an oven that couldn't turn off rapid preheat and rapid reheat. Those settings might be desirable to some, especially if they have very cold kitchens. But they probably are making the said casseroles and just want to get the kids fed.

Hrm, that makes total sense. I am just confused as to how this one stove would be different from any other stove you might buy. Granted, I totally get that some foods are super delicate and a really fast spike in heat would ruin them. I am just thinking out loud here as I try to think of how I cook and if I ever had an issue with something like this, but I can't think of any time I would have noticed a fast spike.

I think, for my mind, the thing that made me post in here the most was the statement that the stove would maintain the temp it fell to after opening. I think, for MY cooking, that would be the only issue I would have. the rest, I do not think would affect the particular cooking "I" do... but if you do much more fancy / delicate cooking, your needs might well be a lot different.

Russ

To clarify before I start, I am the engineer referenced in Trevor's earlier posts.

Most, not all, electric ovens work on similar basic principles. As Trevor mentioned, heating is broken into a few categories; PRE-HEAT, MAINTENANCE, RAPID RECOVERY. In many instances, RAPID RECOVERY and PRE-HEAT, are the same.

Each of these categories has its own profile for heating. PRE-HEAT has a goal to attain the set temperature in the least amount of time. I disagree with this requirement in some cases because electric ovens most often measure air temperature.

When an oven PRE-HEATS to 350 degrees in 9 minutes, it has heated the air surrounding the temperature sensor to 350 degrees in 9 minutes. Most high end ovens and ranges are manufactured of very heavy gauge materials and glass (probably near 100 pounds of materials make up everything that is contacting the inside of the oven) and if delicate items, and by that I mean items which cook in less than 45 minutes, are placed into an oven which has just toned the completion of the PRE-HEAT cycle, they are often exposed to an oven that has lost a lot of temperature due to opening the door, and will have a more difficult time recovering since the walls, floor, door glass, etc., are probably still only around 250-275 degrees.

It is pretty common for most ovens to lose up to 100 degrees (measured in the center of the oven) when the door is left open for 30 seconds. 30 seconds is actually a pretty long time. It's enough time to open the door, turn around and pick-up your sheet of cookies, eat a piece of dough that fell off a cookie, go back to the oven, pull out the appropriate rack, place the sheet on the rack, perfectly adjust the position of the sheet to the center of the rack, and close the door.

This is where that 150 degrees comes from in my experience. Just like a refrigerator that will kick on the compressor if the door is left open for too long, the oven will attempt to re-attain the set temperature by going into RAPID RECOVERY or in most cases PRE-HEAT mode again.

MAINTENANCE is a different cycling of elements that is used to maintain the set temperature once PRE-HEAT is complete. Many companies differ in how they cycle elements for MAINTENANCE but it's purpose is to hold temperature at the set point.

If 100 degrees is lost will it take a long time to recover? It depends upon how you've allowed your oven to PRE-HEAT. If you allow an extra 10 minutes or so then the oven walls, floor, glass, etc. are all going to be pretty close to the oven set temperature and recovery to that temperature will happen within a couple of cycles. If you opened the door at the tone indicating the air temperature has reached the SET TEMPERATURE then, as stated earlier, your recovery time will be longer due to the 100 pounds of materials being about 100 degrees too cool.

The first few field tested wall ovens did have a low PRE-HEAT. This was corrected about 5 years ago. Since that time I have not heard of a problem with temperature recovery or PRE-HEAT.

If you do open your oven door every few minutes (let me know why if you don't mind. I recommend using the door window with a less frequent temperature check) you shouldn't have too much of an issue if your oven is thoroughly PRE-HEATED. Remember, delicate items do better with continuous even temperature and there is no oven that I am aware of that does not lose heat when the door is opened.

I hope this wasn't too long winded and answered most questions that have been raised.

JK

This is awe-freaking-some. You just changed how I cook.. i.e. I will be sure to let the oven really pre-heat from now on, vs putting food in as soon as it dings.

Nice post, and tyvm!

Russ

To answer your question about cooking, Capital Cooking, I do use my oven in ways that I have to open the door frequently. I go on cookie marathons where I am opening the door every five minutes. We have "flying plates" night where we are throwing sheets of appetizers in and out. I make macarons and leave the door open slightly to allow the humidity out.

I think you have somewhat answered this question that hvtech42 asked by stating that you rely on the heat from the mass of the oven to maintain temperature but his question is this:

"What I'm really hoping the engineer will answer when he comes along is, what exactly the "maintain" mode does. Does it pulse the element at a constant rate like your Dacor? Or does it cycle on and off based on temperature? How effective is it at recovering from temperature drops that aren't enough to activate rapid recovery?"

edit

The flip side of this is if I turn the oven up by 50F. does it have the elements come on until the new temperature is attained or does it just oscillate at a fixed rate to maintain the newly set temp.?

Ahh! Cookie night. Sounds tasty!

With the oven running for an extended period the recovery time is quick since the oven mass is already at temperature and very little work needs to be done by the heating elements to bring it back to the set point.

The Connoisseurian Dual Fuel Ranges have taken all we have learned from the wall ovens, which were introduced a couple of year earlier, therefore the corrective feedback from the ovens has been eliminated and we appear to be on the straight path of good cooking.

To answer the hvtech42 question, in MAINTENANCE mode the ovens cycle at a regular rate. Heating elements cycle through a pattern every 30-60 seconds, depending on the cooking mode, that has been found to maintain optimal temperatures. For instance, BAKE uses a longer 60 second cycle since it is intended to emulate traditional bottom heated gas and other fuel "vintage" ovens and provide a soaking bottom heat. The modern touch of electronic controls allows us to squeeze in just enough top heat to keep things even. On the other end of the spectrum, PERFECT CONVECTION uses a shorter cycle to allow more accurate temperature control and uses only a single hidden rear element.

The recovery of say 50 - 100 degrees in the ovens is very effective after the oven has PREHEATED about 10 minutes beyond PREHEAT tone and the entire oven interior is at a uniform temperature. Because the cycling of the oven is a maximum of one minute the reaction to reattaining set temperatures is pretty immediate and our configurations of elements allows this to be completed rapidly and without overheating the bottoms or tops of foods being cooked, under normal circumstances. By normal I mean no extended door open times (over a minute) that can lead to a drastic drop in oven temperature.

Once temperature is achieved the oven will actuate the MAINTENANCE mode whenever the oven temperature drops sufficiently (-5 to 10 degrees as an average).

I hope this helps.

JK

OK, that is just what I expected. The elements aren't pulsing at a constant rate to maintain temperature. I'll try to condense your explanation here to make sure I understand correctly.

When oven is at set temp, elements are OFF.

When temp drops 5-10 degrees below set temp, elements will start on a controlled cycle depending on mode that is gentle to food but still capable of recovering from small temperature drops in a thoroughly preheated oven.

When the oven drops 100-150 degrees, they bring in the "big guns" (rapid recovery).

Thanks for clearing that up, JK, and thanks Trevor for bringing this discussion to his attention.

150 degrees plus drop or a change in the set temperature by the same or greater value brings in the big guns.

150+! My bad.

Another thing worth pointing out to someone considering this range is that if you called up most manufacturers and asked for this detailed info on how their ovens operate, they wouldn't be able or willing to tell you. The fact that that a Capital engineer took the time to post a thorough and straightforward answer on a public forum speaks volumes, I think.

It's nice to see threads like this and while many might see it as CC bashing, it brought out a lot of great information and education that will now help others make a better choice in the future.

Thanks all.

Russ

My 2006 Electrolux does some of the things, that are mentioned that the Capital does. It does not have "fast Preheat", but if you choose convection bake, it alternates between the 3 heat sources, the heater around the convection fan, the lower element and the broil element. You can tell what it is doing by watching the Red Leds in the display, it shows a lower bar for the lower element, an upper bar for the upper element and a circle for the heater around the convection fan. They light up for only a short time, and only one at a time. I guess that's the way Electrolux chose to keep the temperatures even, throughout the oven, and seems to work well.

I too am impressed by the response from Capital, but as I mentioned, inputs were forwarded to Capital on what folks wanted as far a new range goes, and the new range's design, pretty well followed the inputs from folks here on the "former" Garden Webb.

Hmmm, "JK", are you one of the Kalsi's?

Gary

Capital Cooking, maybe you didn't see my question about turning up the temperature by 50F. In that case the walls of the of the oven are lower in temperature so cannot contribute to heating and you said "in MAINTENANCE mode the ovens cycle at a regular rate. "

Let's take the walls out for a minute because we could carry on about leaving the oven open for 15 seconds four times in 12 minutes and contrive all kinds of situations with various types of cycles and how they might or might not work. I would like to ask these two simple questions.

1. If the temperature is set for 350F, and the oven reaches Maintenance, I draw from your statement above that the elements cycle at a specific, fixed, consistent rate that is supposed to maintain the temperature, correct?

2. While in the Maintenance mode, if the temperature drops for any reason to 10, 25, 50 or 100F, below the set temperature is there any change to the rate of cycling?

Russ,

Most ovens are the same on this, your new technique. That's why those who bake, which is a more delicate thing than CCEI's definition gives, always turn on the oven before they do anything else, even if it has a fast pre-heat. A few high end electric ovens supposedly are more thoroughly heated when the preheat mode goes off, probably due to some algorithm that figures out how much more time it needs past the air around the sensor. Or it could be a myth.

Capital Engineer, if you're still reading/answering, do your ovens allow for a cold start/slow heat? Just curious.

Well, I cannot wait to order my CC. I do not have any issues with it, I just like getting into these threads and asking questions to learn more. Let the debate rage on, I say! :P

R

JK may correct me here, but I'll take a crack at it based on what I understand.

1. If the temperature is set for 350F, and the oven reaches Maintenance, I draw from your statement above that the elements cycle at a specific, fixed, consistent rate that is supposed to maintain the temperature, correct?

Unlike the maintenance mode in your Dacor, the maintenance in this oven does not run constantly. It only activates when there is a small drop in temperature from the setpoint. So if you set it to 350, it will not go into maintenance mode when it reaches setpoint. It will be in preheat mode, and then the elements will turn completely OFF for the time being once it reaches 350. Just like most ovens. If it were to go into maintenance mode, the temperature would keep rising past 350.

2. While in the Maintenance mode, if the temperature drops for any reason to 10, 25, 50 or 100F, below the set temperature is there any change to the rate of cycling?

If the temp dropped any of those amounts below the setpoint, the maintenance mode would activate to bring the temperature back up to setpoint. The rate of cycling would vary based on the mode selected, not the temperature difference. The temp will recover in a reasonable amount of time, and preheating the oven thoroughly will aid this.

Hvtech42,

As has been the case through these discussions, I have read what was written but don't see it in the same way you do.

From what he said, the oven preheats.

"Once temperature is achieved the oven will actuate the MAINTENANCE mode whenever the oven temperature drops sufficiently (-5 to 10 degrees as an average)"

To me this means that the initial preheat over shoots the set temp slightly and then settles into Maintenance.

"MAINTENANCE mode the ovens cycle at a regular rate. Heating elements cycle through a pattern every 30-60 seconds, depending on the cooking mode, that has been found to maintain optimal temperatures."

i don't think the maintenance mode cycles on and off. From what he said the oven, except for the very brief time after preheating, is either in rapid preheat/recovery mode or maintenance mode. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement what the preheat/recovery is but. I believe that the maintenance mode is the element cycling on and off at the predetermined rate to deliver a fixed amount of heat for that setting. This may vary in bake vs convection modes.

Let's see how the engineer answers these very simple questions.

MAINTENANCE modes have preset element cycling patterns which are initiated when the oven temperature drops 5-10 degrees. Each mode had a different pattern. The MAINTENANCE pattern repeats every 30-60 seconds depending in mode, until the oven set temperature is reattained. Once the set temperature is reached the MAINTENANCE cycle will turn off and the oven temperature will begin to drop and the cycle will start again after a 5-10 degree drop.

Because the elements cycled are the same it is definitely a fixed amount of heat added each cycle. Rate of cycling does not change. If there is a greater temperature differential between measured temp and set temp, the MAINTENANCE cycling would be the same but would continue for a longer period of time until the set temp was reattained.

There is a slight overshoot for PREHEAT but it is purposely done due to temperature losses when the door is opened and cold food is placed in the oven as well as to give a slight boost to material temperatures.

RAPID RECOVERY does not happen often in my experience, but it would occur after the magic 150 differential number.

I have found that, in cooking tests, the ON and OFF cycling of the MAINTENANCE mode (all modes) actually helps foods cook like grandma used to make. Gas ovens cycle ON and OFF at 100% power and use a similar method of turning ON when temperature drops and turning OFF when slightly over the set temperature.

To answer one of my missed responses:

If the temperature is increased by 50 - 100 degrees the cycling will be using the MAINTENANCE patterns to prevent food from burning. This should not have a large impact on higher mass foods (roasts, turkeys, etc.) but if you are changing for delicate items such as baked goods I recommend waiting for the temperature to be achieved to allow even heating, prior to putting food into the oven.

To answer a second of my missed responses:

If you want to eliminate PREHEAT there is a section in the manual that covers how to do so but it is a bit of a work around. Choose your cooking mode and temperature then set DELAY COOK. You will only have the ability to set it to start within the next 5 minute multiple on the clock (if its 12:01 you can set it to start at 12:05) but when it starts it will be with no PREHEAT. Frozen pizzas often ask to put the oven in a cold oven and set to a temperature with no PREHEAT.

Let me know if I missed anything!

J (not a Kalsi) K

Put "food" in a cold oven, not put an oven in a cold oven. That just wouldn't work!

JK

Been lurking for a year or so, but I had to register to comment.

It is threads like these on gardenweb that convinced me to go Capital. Where else can you find an engineer from the company explaining the intricacies of how their product works?

It is Trevor posting on gardenweb (for years! I've read them all) that convinced me to buy from Eurostoves.

Only (ha!) buying the 36" rangetop, not the stove like this thread dissects, but man I know I backed the right horse reading all of this.

Amen

Regarding the answer to a second of my missed responses above, does the workaround eliminate quick pre-heating all together? I mean it is obvious that the initial quick pre-heating is disabled because it is known that the food is already in the oven in the delayed cooking mode. However, if the temperature is later changed more than 150F, does the oven still enter quick pre-heating/recovery mode? I would think to just make quick pre-heating as an option rather than disabling it via workaround.

No. The DELAY COOK workaround is a prevention of PREHEAT for the initial setting only. If there is an increase or decrease in temperature or setting of 150F or more, after the oven is running, it will trigger the RAPID RECOVERY. Turning PREHEAT into an option is an altogether different animal and is not an option and changes the logistics of cooking.

When developing a product the goal is to try and keep 95%+ of users happy. We know we cannot satisfy all users since there are some scenarios we haven't thought of or that may be mutually exclusive to other features, and although we attempt to develop with a preference for performance and the People Who Love to Cook, I currently camp in the school that PREHEAT is the norm and a PREHEAT OFF toggle will be used by my 5% group. I will keep it in mind though, if I can ever get out of this dratted paper bag!

JK

A preheat off toggle would be nice, especially for the frozen pizza crew, who must be saved from just skipping the oven for the (soggy) microwave. OTOH, the work around, given that it's in the manual, sounds acceptable for baking. I'm not in the market for a range, but I do advise people, and they're generally in the 5%. :) None have been serious enough about a Capital range for me to read the manual yet, but I've always been impressed by Trevor's enthusiasm and videos, and it's good to know what's possible. No kicking, cursing and going to Mom's to bake. :)

Thanks for the answer! And thanks for making it a goal to have it feel like cooking in a normal (Grandma's) oven. I revile and repudiate ovens that want people to change their whole way of cooking, unless it's a new technology, like the Advantium, with its three cooking energy settings.

I haven't thoroughly tried to assimilate all the information about the heating modes, but having seen what I think is a point of confusion, I'll test out what I think is going on:

1. Preheat is rapid and says ready when it thinks it's hot enough to compensate for heat loss in opening the door and putting in the food (and gives you time to give a cookie a haircut).
2. Delayed start mode lets you use a cold oven and gradual temperature increase in Maintenance mode, rather than preheating.
3. Rapid reheat mode only happens when there is a severe DROP in temperature, but not when temperature is rising from ambient in delayed start mode.

Right?

Question about rapid reheat: If you had an oopsie, like a big overflow spill that you didn't want to catch fire, and have the door open long enough for the 150° drop in temperature, but you don't want rapid reheat, can you just turn it to delayed start? I'm not asking which would be better, because I can see that either way might be bad for the pie, but if the temperature fell to 268° and you wanted it to go back to 425°, could you do it that way? And compensate the time a little? (I'm a big believer in it's done when it's done, not when a machine thinks it should be done, and proceed accordingly.) That is, if the oven is already hot, and you put it in delayed start, will it Maintenance itself up to the delayed start set temp?

Next question: For a two part cook, does Maintenance persist? I have a lot of recipes that either start very hot and reduce temperature or start low then increase. E.g., bread that goes in at 450° for thirty minutes, then is reduced to 350° for thirty minutes. That expects the oven to cool gradually while the bread continues to bake. Or brisket that roasts for hours at 225° and finishes at 375°. Neither involves a drop from the set temperature, so I expect they won't trigger a rapid heating, right? Or would the brisket need to be delay started to raise the temperature? Or removed from the oven to allow preheating, which isn't tragic for brisket, which will forgive just about anything, but would be bad for other things.

Just my curiosity, again, but I do wonder....

And thanks again for taking the time.

In reading all of this information, the oven works only slightly differently than what I thought, and my concerns remain. The problem is that it takes a very long time to raise the temperature of the oven in the maintenance mode. If you read again in Capital's very complete guide, in the section on the delay start they will give you an idea of the time involved. Without the fast preheat the oven takes an additional 20-40 minutes over the regular preheat time. I would assume 20 min for lower settings and 40 min for higher settings would go in the middle, 30 min for 350F. Assuming rapid preheat is 7-10 minutes, this means it takes 40 minutes to move from 70F to 350F. My oven does that in 7 minutes. Most other ovens will do it in 15, 20 minutes at the most. When ovens take longer than that to preheat, people tend to complain. It will also take a long time just turning the oven up. The warnings about not opening the door, etc are there for a reason.

"I have found that, in cooking tests, the ON and OFF cycling of the MAINTENANCE mode (all modes) actually helps foods cook like grandma used to make. Gas ovens cycle ON and OFF at 100% power and use a similar method of turning ON when temperature drops and turning OFF when slightly over the set temperature."

To me these are entirely different types of ovens. Every oven, gas and electric that I have used worked that way, except the Dacor I had, which after reading all this worked about like the Connoisseurian. If any of my ovens lost heat for any reason, the heat came on and they rapidly recovered from any heat loss and I never gave it a second thought. If I needed delay bake, the oven quickly preheated without burning the food. My Electrolux, a little higher level of technology immediately comes on when the temperature drops although it rotates through various elements in various modes it still rapidly returns to temperature.

As I have said from the beginning, if you are considering this oven you need to be aware of these issues to see if they will impact the way you cook. Capital Cooking thinks this will only matter to 5% but at least they do see that it will matter to some. I would have no idea what the percentages are. I do applaud them for putting this info in the use and care guide and commenting here so that people can make an informed decision about their ovens.

Wekick - Thanks for all of this. Whether we or anyone agree or disagree, you have at least been a great catalyst for learning more about our choices. I, for one, appreciate the new knowledge.

Russ

Russ, it is good to have all kinds of choices as we all cook differently. Ovens used to all work in the same general way but as newer technology comes into the picture, it has complicated things. The more we understand, the better choices we can make. What works for one can be a disaster for another. I can tell you nothing is worse than spending a lot of money on an appliance and it does not work in the way you expected.

The problem is that it takes a very long time to raise the temperature of the oven in the maintenance mode. If you read again in Capital's very complete guide, in the section on the delay start they will give you an idea of the time involved. Without the fast preheat the oven takes an additional 20-40 minutes over the regular preheat time.

OK, but that is starting from a cold oven. Completely different ball of wax from a thoroughly preheated oven with heat stored in the walls/oven cavity. That's why JK emphasized thoroughly preheating in his original response to the question of how effective maintenance mode was at recovering. Also, I would be willing to be that the 40 minute preheat using maintenance mode only is a much more "effective" preheat - i.e., after that preheat, the oven will be more suitable for baking than after the rapid preheat "finishes", because the oven cavity will have had extra time to store that energy as it was added.

Assuming rapid preheat is 7-10 minutes, this means it takes 40 minutes to move from 70F to 350F. My oven does that in 7 minutes. Most other ovens will do it in 15, 20 minutes at the most.

Yes, but I'm sure that you of all people know that isn't a thorough preheat.

What it all means to me is that when I pre-heat, and plan my cooking, I allow 10-20 minutes extra time to really make sure the oven is ready for me to cook. Just because the oven says the temp is 350, does not mean the OVEN is at 350...just means the air is hot enough to be 350. Open the oven too soon, the air is out and it drops dramatically and thus needs more to bring it back up.

Totally makes sense.

Russ

wekick-

Have you had any experience actually using a Capital oven or are you just basing your comments on your interpretation of the disclosures in the manual? I completely understand your concerns but am trying to understand whether they come from actual experience or just based on an interpretation that is then being related to prior experience/performance of an oven produced by a completely different manufacturer (Dacor)?

Yes, Russ. Plus, what you've said applies to almost every oven.

Hvtech, that 20-40 minute rise in temperature might be a little slow, but not much, but it's what I would want in a delay start. Starting from an oven at ambient (70°F, for example), it should take 20-30 minutes with no fast preheat setting on. For me, at least, that's a good thing. Actually, I can't think of anything that starts cold and goes above 360°, and I'm thinking the remainder of the time you mentioned is for above 400°, so we're probably talking about the exact same thing. Fast preheat is anathema to me. If I can heat in a mode with more elements on and change when it's hot, but I don't. :)

I think I said before, but I'll repeat, that when my ovens are in daily use they never cool down to ambient. This may also be true for the Capital. That extra 50°+ really seems to make a difference in preheat time.

When cooking at the factory we try and follow recipes on boxes and out of books to make sure we can get the expected results following those printed guides.

When cooking roasts and turkeys or other longer duration cooking items, the food is placed into the oven at the PREHEAT complete tone (for electric ovens) (so not thoroughly preheated) and because of the longer time to cook. mass of the food, and the need to verify internal temperatures for "doneness" we have not encountered any issues, then we feast on juicy chicken and turkey with crispy skin and well caramelized roasts cooked to a nice medium rare.

When a recipes says "PREHEAT OVEN TO ..." we give that extra 10 minutes for a thorough PREHEAT and cooking is complete based upon the label recipe time and temp.

As you are most, if not all, people who cook, I think you'd agree that when changing brands or fuel types or oven sizes to a new appliance, there is some adjustment that must be made from what you have gotten used to. It's natural that not all ovens act the same but they should hold the set temperature.

This thread provides what I hope is information that can inform shoppers about how the Capital Dual Fuel ranges operate.

JK

Firstly I would like to thank JK for taking the time to answer all these questions, as someone said above this never happens where a manufacture tries to help in this manner.

Just to put the last 60 posts on this thread in perspective. IMO people are / were focusing on the wrong thing here, I include myself. Even the OP seems to have lost interest...

So in an attempt to bring the thread back to the reason the OP started the thread. We did some cooking in an ACTUAL dual fuel Capital range today, who knew these ranges were more than a manual.

We did not read the manual cover to cover, nor did we think one single time about the Pre heat, maintenance function, rapid recovery, degrees lost by opening the door, how hot the side wall floor and door was or how long things took.

The only thing we thought about was,

1) Is the oven temp correct in the oven for the product going into it.

2) Is it done....

The results are noted below in picture form, I can produce a manual for those who prefer words rather than results.

SIX CAKES ALL COOKED AT THE SAME TIME 3 ON EACH RACK, cooked on full size sheet pans.....

BISCUITS (BREAKFAST)

PIZZA (LUNCH)

YORKSHIRE PUDDINGS (DINNER)

BEEF JOINT (DINNER)

BAGUETTES (FOR THE CLASS TONIGHT)

PIE (DESERT)

COOKIES (FOR IN-STORE CUSTOMERS)

Anyone reading this thread (if they didn't die of boredom) could be forgiven for thinking the Capital Dual Fuel range is a theoretical mathematic project. I hope this shows it actually bakes, roasts extremely well..... lol

Trevor - I do not believe you... mail me some of them so I can test them to see if they are truly done :P

R

@Russ ......Not much left now :).....in the interests of science i put on 10lbs today .....lol

lol! I feel like I have too. Cooked up some ribs and smoked chicken and now I am ready to burst.

Very pretty pictures, Trevor. But how about some cream puffs? And a soufflé?

BTW, the sheet pan is one of the more impressive tricks the Capital range does. :D

Hvtech42

There are times that you want to raise the temperature of the oven and it is not possible to rely on the heat stored in the oven walls.

- delay start- you are starting the oven with the walls at 72F and it takes 30-50 minutes to get to temp.

-The temperature of the oven has been set at 300F for an hour. You decide you need to speed it up so increase the temp to 400F. The walls of the oven are 300F or so so cannot contribute to heating. You can figure out how long this will take to get there. Again this may not matter for some but I think it would for others. You just can't be all things to all people.

And yes there are situations where I would be opening my oven frequently or cooking with it propped open a little and would exhaust the heat even in the walls.

________

plllog, the 20-40 minutes is in addition to the normal preheat so the preheat using those numbers is at least 30-50 minutes.

________

"Have you had any experience actually using a Capital oven or are you just basing your comments on your interpretation of the disclosures in the manual? I completely understand your concerns but am trying to understand whether they come from actual experience or just based on an interpretation that is then being related to prior experience/performance of an oven produced by a completely different manufacturer (Dacor)?"

One does not have to cook with it to understand how it works when it is laid out as well as this. I can read what they write. They are smart to do this. Who wants to have unhappy customers.

A physician does not have to take medicine to see how it works and this would not even be the best way to find out about the way it works. They read the "users guide" which is all the prescribing information so they can decide what would best suit the patient. They can narrow down the list of possible medications and then the patient can try one and see how it works for them. I am not even recommending that you buy or don't buy a particular range--just read the manual.

Real user reviews are very helpful but they are an entirely different type of information.

Example.

-USE and CARE GUIDE ( there is a reason it is called this) and other information directly from the manufacturer ---all kinds of facts-range of temperatures, info on cycles, what buttons to push, etc. This a direct quote that was written by capital.

" SETTING: No quick recovery. Oven will cycle normally despite large temperature drops due to the door being left open, or the oven set temperature being reset to a much higher temperature. The recovery time can be very long for large differentials between oven temp and set temp."

It does not require some mystical interpretation or use of the oven to understand it. It merely requires considering how you will use your oven and how that statement would relate. One person might say, this won't be an issue for me. I'll keep the door closed as recommended and no problem for me. Another person would take that same information and think, I do cookie marathons and have to open the door all the time and with a 25-50 degree drop each time I need very quick recovery, so it won't work for me.

The more complex the oven, the more important this type of information is.

--USER REVIEW--I made a cake, pizza etc and they came out pretty good. I recommend this oven.

--EXPERT USER REVIEW--for a pie might include the recipe used, butter vs shortening vs lard crust , type of apples, type of bakeware and how they utilized any specific baking modes, position in the oven, whether they needed to move the pie at all. What temperature they used and if convection was used. How the apples cooked, how the bottom of the pie cooked, and whether the crust cooked evenly. They might mention any issues they had. They might do this for several things.

The best of course would be if you can use the oven yourself.

Then you might add in what the sales person has to say which is another type of information.

_______

"Trevor Lawson

The results are noted below in picture form, I can produce a manual for those who prefer words rather than results."

I'm sure you can cook all these things. As I said above, this is not the issue at all. Even with the problems I had with my ovens, I could cook all kinds of things too.

Can you bake macarons with the door propped open. Can you crank it to 450F and pop trays of appettizers in and out every 4-5 minutes for an hour or two? These would be my questions.

Are you saying the manual and words are irrelevant or in some way not true?

It hate to hear that you would discount the information in the manual. I think it is essential in learning about how the oven works. I know there are people who only go by what the sales person says but I like to read as much as I can and try to find info from unbiased sources as well. I think the engineer has been honest in saying that there are some for whom this will not work and I appreciate his honesty.