I think this is an interesting topic. Sometimes, I think that the overstated negatives may stem from assuming the same tree/shrub is gonna perform the same way in every region of the country, under different growing conditions, forever and ever... (Amen)

One tree that I see take some heat (in terms of criticism), is the gingko. You hear that they, "are ugly, grow a sparse canopy, stink, grow slowly", etc... I have found them moderate growing (I don't necessarily want it to be a sequoia overnight), and as far as the limited canopy. My other trees cast DENSE shade (Magnolias, Hemlocks, Maples, etc. (not every tree needs to be dense). And there are areas to the garden, where a lighter canopy is welcome. As far as stink, most all cultivars of this tree are male (no stink); and among Asians, the females are highly prized despite the stink. But most of all, this species really excels in highly urban communities due to its tolerance to air pollution. I have seen terrific specimens in the middle of NYC, where anything else wants to die.

The other tree people seem afraid of, but for different reasons. The Eastern Hemlock is presumed doomed to extinction. But I have had a healthy island planting of them for years. Did not originally plant them, and probably would not have had I read the advice on this forum.

I just don't know, maybe it's true and the woolies did not get to them yet, or their is now a competitive bug, or...., whatever. But I am glad someone planted these decades ago either before the arrival of the adelgids or indifferent to them.

I'd say just generally that my interest fades rapidly when I hear folks discuss this or that tree being a "dirty" tree. I don't mean that I lose interest in the tree being discussed, but rather, I lose interest in the discussion itself. What could be more boring than to be talking about the supposed "mess" made by this or that tree type? Just doesn't compute.....in my braincase. Trees belong here more than us monkeys, so far as I'm concerned.

+oM

White pine's salt susceptibility. Yes, they are vulnerable to salt. But I see healthy stands of white pine growing next to highways where salt is used in the winter. I also see white pine growing happily within a couple hundred feet of the ocean, where I know hurricanes must occasionally bring salt spray.

subtropix, I've said in an earlier thread that I think lots of sources don't clearly distinguish between diseases that are wiping a tree out and diseases that occasionally discolor the leaves. I've seen some crabapple happily growing surrounded by Eastern Red Cedar and with a hundred feet of a tree= I know has cedar apple rust.
wisconsitom, I've also noticed a lot of people get hysterical about messy trees.

"People are just too damn lazy to do ANYTHING to their yards anymore."

What can I plant that will flower 12 months out of the year (preferably no tones of red, orange, yellow, blue, or purple), be evergreen, (or if deciduous have leaves that do not require raking (bad back), require no pruning or maintenance, will smell fragrant, is native and non-invasive (because I am eco-conscious), is both drought and flood tolerant, grows in deep shade to full, scorching sun, is tolerant of highly acid and highly alkaline soils, is deer resistant but non poisonous (because I have a kitty and support local wildlife), preferably hypoallergenic because I am..., 'sensitive'.

From some place on earth.

People?! I think that's why I prefer plants..., and animals. LOL!

I find that Sugar Maples are actually quite drought tolerant as well if given the space to grow. Remember that 2012 Midwest drought and heat...they faired pretty well.

Not going to be a popular point but I always hear that Silver Maples are extremely weak wooded and therefore fall apart. I rarely see Silver Maples in shambles. Poplars...yes...Willows...yes

I think I'm one of the few individuals that enjoys mulching leaves into the lawn. Its one of the easiest ways to add organic matter to your lawn, other than the grass itself. I will literally fill up a wheel barrow of leaves collecting in various corners of my lot/house and dump it on the lawn to mulch.

As a designer I don't know how many times I have been told, "I don't want messy trees." Immediately following that, "And, oh, I'm allergic to pollen." Since the trees that create less mess are generally male clones, ergo they are pollen producers. Dilemma!

And, trees that are invasive in some areas may not be in others due to tougher, or limiting growing conditions.

Some strains of "touchy" trees are not as touchy as the general species. An earlier example was heat and drought tolerance of sugar maple. The 'Caddo' sugar maple was selected from a county of the same name in Oklahoma from a hot, dry area and is quite tolerant.

And for those folks that proclaim, "That would never do well here," there will always be horticultural exceptions to every rule. Never say never.

Lol, subtropix!

Ya missed a few. ;-) "No white flowers, I want color."

"Nothing that attracts bees, I'm allergic to bees."

If the garden is hilly, they want it flat or terraced. If it's flat, they want it hilly.

If it's rocky, they want no rocks. If no rocks, they want some. Wet? They want it dry. Dry? They want a pond. Customers like that kept me busy for almost 40 years. Oh, whomever I was talking to about the garden 'they' wanted, wasn't in charge of the checkbook.

One reason yards aren't looking as good as they used to, at least in Seattle, is the fact that 60% of the homes are rentals.

Kids are growing up in subdivisions with postage stamp size yards and the parents aren't into gardening to pass it on to their kids. It seems more and more people are living in apartments and condos and consider gardening as 'work'.

Mike

I have no problem with people who don't want to work in the garden who live in a condo. That's fine. What bugs me more is folks who feel they are supposed to have a house in the suburbs and a lawn, are neatnicks, but lack the time or interest in gardening. You end up with vast expanses of over-watered, over-mowed, over-fertilized grass no one uses.

I think a big reason yards are getting more bland is people move around more. Lots of people don't expect to stay in their home long enough for an oak to get a decent size. So they plant grass or fast-growing trees. And if a yard goes through enough different hands, someone will decide to lop down all the trees. That, exaggerated fears of trees damaging the foundation, and the Cult of the Lawn are destroying the aesthetics and environmental benefits of suburbia.

I think black walnut and the effects of junglone are over-worried about.

Same with the worry about sweetgum balls. Walnuts are ankle twisters. Sweetgum spikes are just a worry for drains.

Or people who go bare-footed. I found a gorgeous variegated sweet gum at an arboretum sale and made it mine. I conveniently 'forgot' to tell the partner about the gum balls. He has not once complained about them. Ditto the effects of juglones from black walnuts. I have a lovely shade garden under my grove of them.

In addition to the mantra about oaks growing slowly (which has not been the case in my experience), I've heard a lot of people decline oaks as an option because oaks get "too big". But then they often wind up planting a maple or something similar that will get just about as big (if it lives long enough).

3 trees consistently condemned on here are Ailanthus, callery pear and box elder. In the climate over here across the pond none of these is a problem. They don't self seed, they don't break and they form attractive trees.

I love subtropix' list. I also can't get my head around the idea of "messy" trees. I love a carpet of fallen petals or leaves beneath a tree. And the acorns or other fruit in autumn just add to the ever changing scene of the seasons. If you have a deck buy a broom.

I'd definitely second the underrated nature of toughness for sugar maple. I have a fall fiesta planted in very clayish soil (albeit well drained) and gets our hot kansas sun for 12 hours each day. I have barely watered the tree over the last 2 years and it couldn't look better.

To keep the discussion going, there are some pines that are also very underrated for this. Eg, korean pine (pinus koraiensis), Bosnian pine (pinus heldreichii) and Macedonian pine (pinus peuce). I feel these are mostly an unknown but are thriving in the heat, humidity, and occasional drought of E KS.

I love ginkgos and am growing 2. As subtropix said above, people complain about them, for whatever reason, then ask for a tree with specifications that sound EXACTLY LIKE A GINKGO!

i love trees and I love gardening and I try to lend a hand to all my neighbors so that maybe they will absorb some of my joy of gardening because it is a beautiful world and we all have the chance to add to that beauty.

Silver Maple - I have 2 mature silvers in my front yard, each about 40-50 feet tall. They give tons of shade, but they definitely earn their troublesome reputation. Weak wood dropping loads of sticks and small branches spring, summer and fall. I have to pick up a wagon full of sticks before every mowing. Helicopters every spring by the truckload, the little devils sprout new trees all over my property, a huge nuisance. If you don't catch the sprout longs before they get woody they are a real pain to remove. Helicopter cleanup is practically a by-hand job. Rakes, brooms and blowers are ineffective. I spend hours every year picking helicopters and their seedlings out of my mulch by hand.

Fall brings ugly colored pale yellow leaves, faded and sickly looking.

Every storm brings the stress of huge branches breaking off to damage my roof, the wood is very weak. It's happened so many times. My tree roots don't seem as shallow as others I've seen though.

I'll never buy another house with silver maples. We got the trifecta of "bad" plants with this property - giant silver maples, wisteria hydra-beast horror show and flower beds stuffed with invasive ditch lilies. The previous owners really loved invasive plants!

Regarding Wisteria, another plant that gets a BAD name. I get it with the Asian species (both the Chinese and Japanese). Still trying to kill one of those out on the property line. But we planted the native species Wisteria frutescens 'Amethyst Falls' (think they developed this cultivar at Longwood Gardens in Pa.), it is much, much less aggressive in the garden. Oh, and if you think Asian Wisterias are invasive, you might wanna avoid Kiwi..., beautiful leaves and fruit (you need both genders), but smothering all other vegetation in its lushness.

I also don't get the contempt for sweet gum. So, you rake the seed balls once a year. Ours is a statuesque and gorgeous shade tree with hard to surpass fall color.

Contrast those traits to a truly messy tree with little to recommend it (unless it's survival capability in poor conditions) - namely Siberian elm.

I confess I also like seeing fall color from a row of mature Bradford pears that some sub-genius planted long ago fronting commercial properties on a street a few miles from my home. I get to enjoy the spectacular fall color; the property owner gets to deal with fallen limbs and occasional major tree surgery.

Sweetgum is on the list of salt tolerant trees and has great fall color, but people really get hysterical about those spiky balls.

Sweet Gum isn't something to plant over your driveway, but other than that, who cares?

They get great fall color, especially in the South (in fact, I'd argue they color better in zones 7-9 than they do in 5-6.

My silver maples doesn't make seeds so that takes away the greatest annoyance. The weak wood and branch pick up is no worse than the birches and elms I have had in my yards over the years.

Sweetgums get way too big for the average yard and take up a lot of space. I've chosen not to have one in my 10 acre garden.

I enjoy them in the Fall when I'm out and about. They are rather common here in commercial plantings.

Mike

Kaetra, I was just going to mention Silver maples, which are pretty bad in the wrong location, but have redeeming qualities people often overlook.

They are not great trees for a small yard or planted close to a structure, gardens or septic/sewers/drains. I have a big one about 20 feet from the southwest corner the house and it's a pain, the roots seek water aggressively and have heaved the sidewalk,
invaded the septic tank, and suck the moisture out of their entire root
zone, including the nearby privacy border. I just got finished treating the
septic with copper sulfate which is periodically required to kill back
the roots unless the tree is cut down (which would eliminate a lot of shade). It also makes a million and sometimes a zillion seeds that clog the gutters all around the house.

OTOH, they are fast growing and some of them have a nice shape and decent fall color. There are several Acer saccharinum in my neighborhood that are about 100 years old and have very nice form. One in particular is stunning, one of my favorite all time trees!

They are very beneficial trees for wildlife, because the flowers, leaves, and samaras are enjoyed by many species of insects, birds, and mammals. Even though they occasionally lose big branches, the craggy crotches and broken bark and branches provide cavities for wildlife and places for insects to hide.

Could not be more correct with sugar maples- they did exceptionally well during 2012 where we had intense heat and drought all year and sandy soil where I'm at. For a while I backed off of planting them in favor of Freeman's but witnessing their superior growth, branch structure, and drought tolerance (as well as range of fall color), have gone back to planting them in favor of some of the other maples. This year I am getting the newer Flashfire from Schmidt which was derived from Caddo seed source and will see how it does. Many sugar maple selections are some of the best trees you can plant.

I have to disagree with positive silver maple assessments- while they may live a long time and have branch structure which can hold up well (particularly on farmsteads where it can be hard to be successful with tree plantings), I find that they are like ash trees- so aggressively rooted that they take all the life out of the soil around them. Would much rather opt for an oak, elm, hackberry, coffeetree, honey locust, etc.... on those sites. Will not grow as quickly but long-term they are better options.

Also the oaks growing slow is false. If you look at plantings where two similar sized trees (say maples and oaks, for instance) were planted at the same time they are often the same size 20 years down the road. Yesterday went by a streetside with littleleaf lindens and swamp white oak- after 10-12 years the oaks are now outgrowing the lindens and look much healthier with the hot and dry summer weather we have been having lately.

What is different now and one of my pet peeves compared to when I grew up is the definition of messy or of work. A mess now constitutes anything that falls onto the perfectly chemical laden yard- leaves, a small twig, tiny crabapple fruit, acorns, pine cones, etc.... Even when the person mows the lawn with a rider and have not gone outside bare-foot for over a quarter-century. Work now constitutes anything that requires me to lift, bend or move. Sometimes it would be better to have a concrete lot with a house in the middle of it. Why not deal with a little mess, get our kids outside and off their computers and phones, and teach them to enjoy plants (even those that we consider to have many negative characteristics)?

One of the best times we had as kids was on this huge berm across the street that the owners had allowed giant ragweed to grow over the whole thing (was 6-8' tall). We spent a week chopping paths through it like a jungle and cleared an area in the center of it as our fort. Those were the days!