Hello Jon, The way I understand it, *layering* the browns and greens is not so important, it's just having the ratio about right. As someone pointed out earlier (sorry poster, I forget who so succinctly said this), three things are needed: air, moisture and organic material. So yes, you need to 'turn' the pile from time to time to get some air incorporated in the pile. But also remember - you don't really need to do anything at all except dump your organic matter on the pile. It will all decompose eventually. We do all this other stuff so it takes months instead of years, there's folks who can get compost in weeks, but that's a lot of work. I hope this helps some. m

Layering is one way to keep grass clippings and other high moisture stuff from getting stinky.

This is my method - pile it and forget it, except for keeping it moist. It only gets turned when I'm sifting it out for use.

http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/diy-cheap-compost-bin.html

http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/diy-trommel-sifter-for-compost.html

How often do you 'sift out for use'? Some folks may do that often, others maybe annually. It would be helpful to know how often air is added to the pile. Thanks lazy.

Turning is about getting air in there. For a hot pile - like grass especially - the hot composting consumes a lot of oxygen and you can see the pile shrink (also from settling). This can give you a longer hot period, maybe two to four distinct hot phases. Not so important after the first few weeks. Also helps prevent Matting, anaerobic decomposing and the smells associated. If the material contains more air, less critical. But as said above it will compost eventually anyway. Turning twice a week forever is excessive in my opinion, but to each his own and it won't hurt.

For an alternate view, none of it matters. You said "heap", which means a lack of fussiness or a lot of room, so you got it easy. On property before this one, I used to pile EVERYTHING on one pile: grass, wet or dry leaves, sticks, garbage, all the rotten pears and apples from the ground, sheets, feathers, rabbit muckings, rabbit fur, and so on. That pile had a life of one year because in the spring I'd sift through as the season went along it and toss all the big not-quite-ready lumps on the second pile that grew the same lackadaisical way.

Then everything got rotated back to the first pile in the same way, in turn, the following year. Just two piles: toss onto one, draw from the other. No turning, no ratios, no weeds, no testing for heat, no critical mass, no stink, no watering, no worries whatsoever. And everything turned to compost. Everything.

Grubby, I agree, your approach with no turning will work and mine is similar-no turning. Bit for people who want to do it faster with hot piles, turning helps. The only issue I ever had with not turning was a pile of almost entirely grass, which turned into a soupy stinky mess. Mixed piles like your approach work very well indeed. Now I just leave grass on the lawn as mulch. But lots of ways to get to the same end - compost.

On one hand, the soil I have to work with seems very poor to start with, and I mean to take an add-as-I-go approach to this, so I'm thinking breaking material down quickly and thoroughly will be important. On the other hand, keeping up with a kid, nine cats, job searching, and other challenges devour a lot of my time and energy, so the relaxed lazy "leave it alone, let time and the microherd do the heavy lifting" approach has a strong appeal.

My woman doesn't want to give it a full year, she'd like to have the plot available for planting in early spring. I'm tentatively thinking it might be a good idea to mostly let it sit, but turn and mix it in September, November, January, and just before planting, barring any unfortunate odors that say I need to aerate it and bump up the carbon content sooner rather than later.

No plan survives contact with the enemy, but does that sound reasonable as an early estimate?

I think you will be fine. For my part, I add lots of coffee grounds [think Starbucks - bags and bags] when I add dried leaves. Really gets the pile cooking. Good luck with it all Jon and keep us posted on how it worked out or what adjustments you made to your plan. Feedback helps us all.

From what I recall of your situation, hard clay with little organic content, your best bet seems to be as much mulch as you can possibly get on there and hope it starts to get worked in. You'll have to figure out whether it makes sense to do a lot in smaller area or widespread. You might also look into whether there are soil building plants that might grow over your fall/ winter. I've been reading good things about buckwheat but I don't know enough about it or your climate. Compost - all you can do is get as much as possible, like when your meighbours leaves are thrown out. Let us know how I goes.

Any time I see a nearby source I do grab it. Pine doesn't even grow here, the needles and cones came from a yard waste bag I spotted and took off someone else's curb.

Nitrogen is (for now) relatively easy to come by, what with a fast-growing lawn, the overgrown vines being hacked out from along the fence, lots of coffee consumption, and a lot of spoiled food generated by wasteful and picky eaters. I don't want to get the nitrogen content TOO high because this compost is very close to the front door, but for now it doesn't smell. If it does start to reek of ammonia, I'll raid the cardboard boxes at the nearby shopping center again to even things out.

Plants that can do more of the work for me are definitely something I want to look into, when budget allows.

I'm looking forward to the next time we visit my future mother in law. She's alright, doesn't like how much I cuss but we get along. She keeps chickens, and I don't think she'd complain at all if we scraped out and hauled away the old chicken litter again.

Starbucks grounds are great and a lot really give the pile a great scent for several weeks.

Jon, in summer black eyed peas are a great, low cost nitrogen fixer. I've tossed out 3-1# bags each of the last two summers. They grow like crazy, produce pea pods that you can harvest after the peas have dried on the stalk (or even when green if you prefer). Then make Hopping John for New Year's! Do not pull the plants out after harvest, just chop at the soil line leaving the legume 'roots' in place for soil aeration etc.

In winter scatter buckwheat or crimson clover. Fairly inexpensive seed.

MaryMcP .... I break down a pile once a year or less often, depending on how much accumulates and what I need. I usually have one full bin composting, one accumulating stuff and one full one that I can sift and use whenever I feel like it.

There's plenty of air available, because there are layers of dry leaves, raked weeds, or wood chips between layers of kitchen scraps and cat-pan sawdust. I water the piles often enough to keep it damp about 4 inches down if rain is not sufficient, but I've never needed to turn it to aerate it.

Jon ... grow OKRA with heavy mulching next year! It tolerates clay soil and the roots go 6 feet or more deep. In the fall, chop them off at ground level and let the roots rot in place. Repeat a couple of times and you'll have nice dirt with almost no work.

The roots leave tiny channels deep into the dirt for air and nutrients, and they leave organic matter when they rot.

If you have NINE cats ... use pellet fuel or sawdust bedding in the litter boxes. Sift out the poop and compost the sawdust. It makes AWESOME high nitrogen compost material.

Believe me I want to switch to pellet fuel for cat litter; I looked into it already and around here it's seasonal. If the cats will take to sawdust, and the people I live with have no complaints about the odor, we might be able to switch them to that.

Don't have a sifter, but I don't worry too much about poop anyway. Wild animals including feral cats and other carnivores poop around here all the time anyway, our cats' poop won't make any real difference to toxoplasmosis risk.

A good reliable soil test is in order. While Nitrogen is important too much cause serious problems. Because Nitrogen availability is dependent on soil temperature, and the activity of the Soil Food Web, few soil test labs even test for N today.

Perhaps these simple soil tests might be of some use as well.

1) Soil test for organic
material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in
a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and
replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24
hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight.
For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the
bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above
that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole
1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains
away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain
away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs
more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the
soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful
of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is
released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a
finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your
soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant
odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria
will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter
can be bad as well.

5) Life. How many
earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5,
according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that
is not healthy.

kimmq is kimmsr

By coincidence I turned a pile this weekend - well, let's say I 'curate' it, as it's not really mine. It's basically just an open box under some trees at a weekend house that I visit most weekends. It's basically just a dumping place for kitchen scraps, garden odds and ends but lots of windfall apples in spots, occasional (but not all) leaves, and whatever else. Dairy, bread, meat scraps go in indiscriminately as well. The only consistent browns are small amounts of cardboard, and sawdust from cat litter (the rest removed). So it's high on greens, mostly left unattended, and fully used only during summer (weekends in winter and holidays). It's mostly just a box and not piled as high as a 'classic' compost pile. Nothing had been done to it since last fall (winters here are cold, so slow composting except for summer). Anyway I decided to 'turn' or dig most up and toss to one side in a higher pile, so that half can be left to compost and cure until it's done.

Despite the fact food scraps are thrown in with no prep and often in large chunks, there was little (except for the top layer) that was recognisable - not much obvious cardboard, no evident food scraps - except for fibrous plant waste and twigs from garden. Sawdust could be seen but mostly had turned dark reddish-brown like humus in good soil. The top layer became the bottom layer on the 'new' pile. In places it was fairly smelly and compacted but not excessive. There were occasional pockets where stuff was concentrated (like pockets of leaves) and was more obvious what the source was. The sawdust layers smelt a bit better.

Towards the bottom of the 'old' pile (now top of the new pile for curing) the predominant smell was vaguely manure-like but with more a smell of fermentation (some concentration of apples were towards bottom). Clearly towards bottom decomposition was tending towards anaerobic. Fortunately pile far enough from house that this doesn't matter or a covering of browns or leaves might be in order. There were some compost worms in places - not that many but this is in a place where they really hadn't been seen before.

This will be left to compost more at least a few months or if the occupants don't need, maybe until spring. My expectation is that the pile might heat up a bit but mostly just slowly decompose further, with the fermentation smell going away relatively quickly as aerobic decomposition takes over. From previous experience, the more fibrous waste will also break down better although some tougher bits might remain. Some strains of fungi will also get more active on these if left alone, too. Compost worms will probably get more active and spread through the pile more, too.

In relation to discussion above, I'd say this pile could have used a lot more browns, some active turning and maybe been a bit drier, and it would have broken down faster with less smell. But it serves its purpose and will get to compost eventually anyway.

Oh, and sawdust from cat litter fits in very well - in a pile with lots of food waste it seems to turn into very humus-like quickly and absorb moisture and get to something like a finished compost.

In situation where trying to get extra materials and lots of cats, I'd want to use that. Personal preference: I think adding cat faeces to pile directly that will be used in garden is not a good idea; scooping out the offending bits and disposing of separately doesn't take much time. (Of course some gets in but in very small quantities, and it's not that I'm excessively squeamish, just seems gross to me and bad hygiene - but to each his own)

To those who use cat litter that is quite disgusting and I would hope you wouldn't use that compost on an edible garden, as that sounds like a good way to get toxoplasmosis, ecoli, and salmonella, among other nasty things. Though it is probably cleaner than manure from a factory feed lot. Not trying to be harsh but no one should be advocating this.

I also would not use on edible garden. But I'm comfortable enough with it for other uses (as I said, after removing actual feces), as long as well composted.

Lazy, sounds like you have a good system going and it's working well for you. Mine is similar in that I have a "Working" barrel and a "Resting" barrel. Sometimes I also have the third phase "Done and waiting" for me to get around to shoveling it into a bed. Thanks for the reply. m

Actually, manure from anywhere - even the most pastorally raised free range cow - will be loaded with e coli - UNTIL it's aerobically composted. As for salmonella, I've never heard of cats carrying it, that's new to me. But in any case, the composting process takes care of reducing pathogenic bacteria to safe levels.

Of course, soil is full of all kinds of bacteria that are not necessarily good for you if you got infected. Tetanus, pseudomonas, you name it. But we don't die from living on soil. We just don't eat it, right?

Parasites are a different matter and if you're considering composting meat-eating animal manures, it's wise to do some research. There are plenty of threads right on this forum about pet waste.

chigardenlady said, "To those who use cat litter that is quite disgusting and I would hope
you wouldn't use that compost on an edible garden, as that sounds like a
good way to get toxoplasmosis, ecoli, and salmonella, among other nasty
things."

Cats are only infectious with toxoplasmosis for a month or two after they get infected. They are NOT a source of salmonella, and even the E. Coli strain that is so dangerous is mostly found in cows. Unless they are eating raw, wild rodents they aren't exposed to any parasites - and mine eat kibble only.

After a couple of years composting, there's nothing left to worry about even if I put it onto a vegetable garden ... which I do. It's like composted stable litter.

I'm getting poop regardless of whether I add poop; the outdoor animals living around here make sure of that. Amusingly enough, a previously indoor-only cat that we've put outdoors for being training-resistant and making too many messes, has finally learned to use the litter box, kind of. She only poops in my woman's old tire flower pot.

I would cover my pile and get a dog. I have both and never had any cat crap. Dog isn't allowed in garden and neither is her poop. Some people compost their own feces. They use bio solids in big ag, chemically treated human waste and sewage spread on fields. To each his own. All that said I still don't want my food grown in cat poop. My garden and compost has standards. But then again most people will eat anything, knowingly or not.

Compost should never, if properly constructed and maintained, have an off putting odor. Compost piles should be located in convenient, near enough to be readily accessible from both the house and garden,

Finished compost should never have an off putting odor and should always smell like good rich earth.

kimmq is kimmsr

Sewage sludge is not chemically treated, it's biologically treated. Kinda like composting. Not that I'm advocating that anyone use it in the garden, but as far as I know, no chemicals are added to the wastewater during treatment. Just to keep things straight.

Let's hope chilady never visits an organic farm to see the veggies being grown.

Personally I dislike statements like 'compost should never' or should be constructed in certain places - to each his own, if it works for them.

As to the question, should compost be turned? The (utterly neglected and not 'properly' constructed and maintained) pile I referred to above smelled when it was turned. A few days later, and it does not anymore.

In short, turning can help - some piles need more air.

I grow organically. And without cat feces. But again to each his own. If you eat that and say it's good I'll have to take your word. If you offer me some I'll politely decline.

I can't imagine someone saving up all their organic crud until they have the appropriate layer depth of each type of item. Take what you have, throw it in a pile. If you have a lot of energy, or it smells funny, turn the pile. Otherwise, don't. It will all rot no matter what! People make up all sorts of guidelines to make fast compost in the perfect ratio but seriously, in real life that makes no sense. Layer but turn often? Then what is the point of the layers? Just aim to have more browns than greens and you should be fine. If you are trying to smother, I wouldn't turn it over unless it smells creepy and needs more air.

You can also effectively aerate an anaerobic pile with a drill and a bulb auger. Thats surprisingly effective, and beats turning a few cubic yards of glop.

"...that is quite disgusting and I would hope
you wouldn't use that compost on an edible garden, as that sounds like a
good way to get toxoplasmosis, ecoli, and salmonella, among other nasty
things."

"Otherwise ... It will all rot no matter what!"

"Parasites are a different matter"

Everyone is really right. That's why time heals all and we shouldn't make it our enemy. It's hard to get into trouble if you're not in a hurry; just like in driving.