Does the apologizer ever apologize? That is often one reason for the prompt I've seen. The hurt party never hears it.

I've also told my son to apologize even if he isn't wrong, sometimes. It can keep the peace, and it's good practice for adulthood. In some instances, it's better to apologize and let the other person come to the conclusion they were wrong. It may take time. And, I think there are times apologizing, even when not wrong can be good for a person's character. I'll say, it takes a lot less prompting now that he's been practicing, so I think he's getting the feel for when it's appropriate? That's a very nuanced thing. Sounds like this could be one of those instances.

Merely my thoughts and not a judgment in any way.

Well, someone can demand an apology all they want but no one can be forced to apologize. At least within reasonable conditions. And I agree that an apology without meaning is worthless.

As for the "grow up!" comment, one side feels it was justified but I'm sure the hurt side feels differently. Both feelings are valid, and the truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I tend to err on the side of apologizing especially if something I said made someone feel bad, whether I thought the comment was fair or not. But I also know plenty of people who won't apologize for anything, ever, because they feel justified in whatever they did or said. They just ignore the situation till everyone forgets it and then they carry on like nothing happened. Those are not my favorite types of people.

PKponder wrote what I was going to write.

And in general, must an apology be offered if one is demanded? Certainly not.

An apology is an acknowledgement that one has done something wrong. I don't think someone should lie to make the other person feel better so I would never advise someone to apologize to keep the peace. What I would say is I am sorry your feelings are hurt but I stand by my statement. That is not apologizing but acknowledging their hurt feelings valid or not.

I think demanding an apology is a sign that someone needs to grow up and learn to suck it up.

And if being told to "grow up" hurts someone's feeling so badly that they not only demand an apology but cause the rift to "become a really big deal", that person, IMO, does indeed need to grow up.

The nature of an apology is that it must be volunteered, not demanded.

This person who is hurt could well be "right" and the "grow up" comment uncalled for, but IMO, the "hurt" person should let it go, reply by saying directly that it hurt her feelings, not with anger or looking for an apology, then move on. If the other person offers an apology, accept it graciously and don't go into why it hurt so much. If they don't, they don't.

It's not cancer. And be glad for that.

I think saying, "I'm sorry your feelings are hurt" doesn't acknowledge they actually are hurt. It puts the onus on them, as though they caused it all by themselves, and doesn't really go far in placating anyone. But that's just an opinion.

Does the person really and truly need to grow up and no one else has the guts to say it to their face? I know a lot of people that need to grow up these days. It probably does no good to say "oh grow up" though because they won't listen. They may not be sorry for saying it. You cannot demand someone to apologize.

I am 62 and a running partner-friend is in her late 50's (and boy does she love being younger than me) and she really does need to grow up. I left high school behind 45 years ago while she never did. Anyway - she really does need to grow the heck up in how she treats people - her wanting to be the queen bee, being part of a clique, gossiping, leaving people out of things,etc, etc.

Someday I will get annoyed enough (especially if I find out she is gossiping about me or my family) to tell her she needs to grow up but when I do that it will be along the lines of what wathmelol said. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt but you really do need to grow up. I have thought long and hard about this situation so that if and when I do say it, it won't be said out of anger, I hope.

For me I guess it also depends on why the comment was made, was it said out of anger, is it over a specific situation or a systemic problem with the person, is it family or friend. The person who said the comment - how much were they hurt by the persons behaviour and by that I mean that perhaps the person who was told to grow up should be the one who is apologizing or at least recognizing their part in the situation. Did they do something hurtful to prompt the "grow up" comment.

I too, taught my kids to apologize at a very young age because it is a hard skill to learn how to do and also when to do it. It's also a nuanced skill in that perhaps only part of the situation requires an apology but not the whole thing. It's important that there not be blanket apologies. Like I always told my kids - there are two sides to every story and every side has different stories..

In most circumstances I don't agree with lying in order to keep peace. Maybe this person does need to grow up and those who keep lying are just enabling the person's behaviors. I would not apologize for my statement if it is something I standby, but I would acknowledge hurt feelings.

"If I had hurt someone's feelings I might apologize for hurting the feelings but not necessarily for the statement"

I'm not sure when this type of parsing came into regular use, but to me, it was a downward turn for civilization.

There was a time when "I'm sorry" meant the speaker had remorse for what they had done or said. Without regard to what the listener's reaction was. Now there are two choices - the traditional "I'm sorry" for what the speaker did or said, or "I'm sorry for your negative reaction for what I did or said".

To me, the second version isn't an apology, it's a statement standing up for what previously happened or what was said, as in "too bad you didn't like what I did or said, I don't regret it".

++++++++++++++++++

To the original question - don't keep score. There was a bust-up, move on unless the damage done makes you want to sever the relationship. Spend time with who you want to spend time with, and none with who you don't.

Please keep your thoughts coming, they are most helpful.

@'watch' - "An apology is an acknowledgement that one has done something wrong." Your statement struck me as most profound!

Because feelings can be hurt for so many reasons, is it not up to each individual to develop sufficient self-esteem to overcome real or perceived slights? This instance concerns two adults. It was not a negative, hurtful comment about the person, but an assessment regarding their behavior.

Comments?

Many others said it better than I can, but I will "apologize" for hurting someone's feelings or say "I'm sorry you misinterpreted what I said..." But if the comment was right on, then no, I won't apologize, but do acknowledge it resulted in hurt feelings. So, tough darts, put your big girl panties on, and grow up :-p

Apologizing is definitely a learned skill and some people are not very skilled when it comes to doing it. If the person being told to grow up wanted acknowledgement that something hurtful was said, then if a person can't offer up an apology then I'd say the non apologizer is just as immature about the situation.

You stated, "It was not a negative, hurtful comment about the person, but an assessment regarding their behavior." Actually telling someone to grow up is negative and hurtful. It implies that the receiver of the comment is child like and immature.

Honestly without knowing the backstory of what occurred, both parties are wrong in this situation and if a comment about growing up hurts someone that badly and the other is digging their heals in and not apologizing then there's way more issues going on if it could become such a huge deal. Life is way too short to make such a big deal out of small issues with the ones we love. Now if the real issue is actually something much deeper than the surface (which I'd imagine it is) then my whole response would likely change.

People have various thickness of skin and what upsets one person wouldn't upset others. But I believe everyone's feelings are valid and should be respected. I'm probably more on the sensitive side of the spectrum myself but I don't think that means people have a free pass to say what they want to me and I just need to get over it. I mean, they can, of course, but the relationship will suffer for it since I don't choose to spend my time with hurtful people.

And I think "grow up!" is a negative, hurtful comment about a person. It's a sarcastic, rude way of saying someone is immature. There are much better ways of communicating the same comment. I can't give a specific example as I don't know the situation, but focusing on the action rather than the person, and focusing on how their actions make you feel instead of how wrong they are, can come off much kinder.

But I believe everyone's feelings are valid and should be respected

Exactly! That's what I meant by keeping the peace and validating rather than putting the onus on them. Poorly stated on my part. Thanks for your better statement of it chi!

The key words in the OP, to me, are "…this has become a really big deal." It is hard to believe that it isn't the recipient of the "Grow up" command that has made this a huge deal because he or she just can't take it for the jerky comment it was and let it go, also indicated by the demand for an apology.

People say stupid things all the time. If we demanded apologies for every harsh or dumb thing said to us, we'd be spending all of our time making those demands (which we ARE in American culture now, it seems, for every slight!) and stupidly escalating these things to "really big deals", which is as stupid a thing to do as telling someone to "grow up".

File under: Pick Your Battles.

Chisue said it for me, too. "Grow up" is a rude (and childish) comment to another adult.

boy is this timely..just called and left a message on dgd's phone...(not to grow up but get busy) and am I sorry? nope...my dd works full time, does all sort of projects that the 3 girls wanted...( a hutch full of bunnies for 4H, woodworking, ect) the 16yo has been dragging her feet about passing the written/computer test for driving...(they have an extra car now) so she can take the driving classes...told my dd to run away from home and spend some time here...lol...

Oh, the complexities of language. I am someone who realized just a few years ago (and I'm in my 60s) that I am frequently misunderstood, both when speaking or writing. For those who know me well however, these often become times for humor. I do understand how language can bind us, humor us, and damage us. And I agree that trust is very important and that it comes from truthy-ness. Whew.

I agree with some here that "oh, grow up" is a very unfriendly way to let someone know they need to grow up. That phrase is nearly as offensive to me as is "shut up". (And a bit of swearing isn't a big deal to me.) So, as it is unfriendly language, it's use would warrant an apology. But that apology is needed for the language and not for the thought of finding the person to have acted very immaturely.

Coming up with a substitution, for me, requires more of a back story. If the 'grow up' thought was created by them making a 'poor me' lament, then something to let them know they were heard could work - such as 'that really gets to you, doesn't it?' ((And if more is needed - it may be bordering on a therapy-type conversation, maybe 'why do you think that is?'))

If the 'grow up' thought was in response to something directed at you, such as a complaint, then something along the lines of 'oh, sorry for that - I had thought I was doing a good job of hiding my fears about the . . . but since I offended you, I guess I'm not.'

I cannot think of how a person could tell another adult to "grow up" & that it would be helpful, tactful, polite, or non-hurtful. It would never have a soft landing. It is a demand & seems mean. If one is acting in a juvenile way, perhaps pointing out or suggesting an alternative way of viewing or reacting to a situation would be more helpful than simply saying "grow up", particularly when speaking to an adult.

The person who refuses to apologize sounds like a stubborn person to me. Sounds like "I'll say what I want & anyones feelings be damned, because I am the know-all, be-all, knowledgeable arbiter of all." And that in itself is a rather immature characteristic.

All the above with the caveat that we have about zero information to base opinions on, which can be dangerous. I think there are a lot of facts & nuances that could be present that could alter opinions. The attempt is probably in trying to give a non-biased description of the situation, I suppose.

Thank you beeOhio, you have echo'd my feelings perfectly.

Kity, try looking at the big picture, asking people to offer opinions without even providing details is a bit immature (IMO). Is the situation you're in really worth loosing a relationship over? Sometimes it's just easier to put your big girl panties on, swallow your pride and get on with it. It doesn't matter if you feel it's true or not, that is just your opinion. Owning it and apologizing is the mature way of acknowledging you may have hurt someones feelings.

Thanks all, for I sought unbiased comments...

... and here is the back-story!

#1 told a biggie lie to #2, plus threatened hurtful action against #2. Crying, #2 told #3.

Then, #1 purposely told #3 very personal embarrassing information about #2, in their presence, knowing it would hurt.

#3 told #1 to 'grow up'!

Any change to your original opinions?

I have a sister in law who is genius at this, it's her job. She's a public liaison specialist and she's expert at keeping lines of communication open, the heat out of conversations/confrontations, progress always moving forward.

It's not something I'm that good with, I hate drama and don't have much patience for it. I do think though I could acknowledge I had put my needs badly by saying 'grow up' and apologize for the words, for the way I expressed displeasure/discomfort/disappointment, explain how I felt that lead me to have contributed to hurt feelings. Best case scenario would be that could lead the way for a more productive conversation where two people could better understand each other and - what they expect of each other.

Interesting timing. I have a dear elderly friend who has just received a stunning (terminal) medical diagnosis. Her daughter who has ignored her for the most part for the last few years is here, and almost hysterical. Hand wringing, sobbing, she has so much to do she's exhausted (already) to the point she's draining the energy from my friend who is ill. I want so badly to say - Grow Up. Your mom needs you right now, it's your turn at 63 to be the grown up.

But I asked my friend last night if there was some way I could talk to her daughter, calm her down, lessen the chaos and her response to me was....please just be her friend, it's the best she can do.

#1 does need to grow up, but it probably could've been done differently?

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Aw, that she understands her daughter, that's so sweet, morz. Sometimes, accepting someone exactly as they are is really hard though, isn't it?

Not to mine. It sounds like #1 is a rude person, but that doesn't excuse being rude back. I don't blame #3 for what she said (and I might have done something similar) but I still think it's wrong to be mean to someone who is mean to someone else. It doesn't accomplish anything.

Well I would be asking why number 2 & 3 choose to associate with number 1 who is a liar and threatens people with physical violence. I'd also be wondering why the big deal is being made about the words grow up when obviously there's a much bigger issue going on here.

If this is a relationship that all parties want to salvage and I was number 3 I would say something along the lines of this. "I am sorry #1 that you found my comments offensive. I felt like you were trying to deflect from the issue by mentioning information that would be embarrassing to #2. This situation has obviously escalated out of control and I would love if we could just move on and acknowledge that everyone said things that hurt one another."

Now if it were me, I'd never choose to have someone like #1 in my life that can threaten physical violence, lies and then tries to manipulate the situation so that they are the victim.... but that's just me.

So it sounds like this is situational as opposed to a longterm "grow up" issue. There is no doubt that #1 was way out of line and she/he is the one who owes everyone the apology. I sure hope she isn't demanding one! I'm not sure that "grow up" was an appropriate response but could depend on the tone of voice used. Was it a demand or was it a "Oh for crying out loud, just grow up will you" kind of tone.
Are there other things at play between these three people that would have #1 lying in the first place? I'd be making myself scarce because I don't have time for this kind of garbage.

The situation that I mentioned upthread, the person really is emotionally stunted and is living in high school angst and it is a long time situation and she really does need to "grow up" and realize the damage that she is doing to people with her behaviour.

And morz8 and rob333 - thanks for mentioning your story and rob333 for reinforcing the point of the story - could be that my friend is trying to be the queen bee. I do know that there are other things at play. (But she still needs to grow up) :).

I feel really sorry for #3 getting all this dumped on him/her.

#1 and #2 both owe #3 an apology for tattling and gossiping.
#1 owes #2 an apology for lying, threatening and embarrassing #2.

#3 could have expressed her/himself better, but an annoyed outburst at being sucked into this drama is only to be expected, and "grow up" is a heck of a lot nicer than "f--- off". I think that shows remarkable restraint. Given this situation, I think it's #3 whose feelings should be considered, and I don't think #3 owes an apology to #1 for speaking sharply. I agree with Rob that sometimes an apology can be civil glue, but in this case, #1 claiming hurt feelings is ludicrous.

Gossiping, telling tales no matter how truthful, good or bad, is highly frowned on in my religion--though one must speak if one knows for sure that someone will be harmed by another (like if your friend is going to hire a known thief). Embarrassing someone in public is considered to be like murder. I'm not suggesting that these people should abide by someone else's religion--I'm just pointing out how serious gossiping and embarrassing people are, on a philosophical level, not even speaking to the original lie and whether it rose to the level of "false witness". Using a schoolyard expression to denote frustration with the behavior is so far down the list of bad acts, that it doesn't even merit discussion in this instance.

Yes, all three of you need to grow up. geeze

Hee-hee! I'm so smart! I knew from the first post that this was too petty to warrant comment.

It depends. If the OP here is #2, which I suspect is the case, I have to admit that I'd suspect I'd hear a whole other story from #s 1 and #3, esp. #1.

However, forget the "grow up" comment. You never, ever, ever divulge personal, embarrassing information about another person. It doesn't matter what that other person has done. You just don't do it. And that kind of behavior IS something children do because children don't have the emotional maturity to stop themselves that adults are supposed to have.

In the above scenario, #1 sounds like a bully. But I think kitykat is #2, so that makes me a little skeptical.

I'm still confused. Who is demanding an apology and from whom?

Way too much drama with this whole thing. Its ridiculous. All three of them should move on.

I wouldn't take back the "grow up". I would elaborate on it. The person knows she did wrong and is putting the others on defense to make her position stronger. Or she's trying to, anyway.

she did wrong, her position, she's trying... I missed the mention of genders ;)

#1 definitely needs to GROW UP! Lying and gossiping? WTH? #1 needs to apologize to 2 AND 3!

I think numbers 1, 2 and 3 are teenagers? OP is mom?

They are " demanding" an apology? I say they do need to grow up and most likely they are spoiled?!!

The final clarification... #1 a man, #2 his wife, #3 her mother... and I am that Mom, and offering huge appreciation for all posters. Thank you, thank you!

This is not some petty problem. It centers on serious behavioral disorder, the potential breakup of a family, and major ramifications. Certainly, there is much back story, but this is the first that I have been drawn into the drama.

I initially sought anonymous, objective input, without providing details, to keep comments based on rational, normal personal interactions. Many/most said I should apologize.

The 'who did what' was added to provide additional perspective. It seems the tide of opinion then shifts somewhat regarding my need to apologize. I am disinclined to do so, having meant what I said.

Again, thank you for helping with this unfortunate and very sad family drama...

Can't see why you would need to apologize, but again, your daughter's husband, according to what you have said here, sounds like a bully ,and if he wants his marriage to survive and his kids to grow up healthy, he needs to get some pro help putting the bullying behind him and finding another way to express his anger.

And btw, a SIL demanding an apology from his MIL is just weird. In conjunction with his willingness to humiliate his own wife to her mother, and threatens to "harm" her, however - whether through physical violence, harming their children, or further humiliating her by taking it outside the family, I think whether you should apologize or not sounds like the least of your daughter's problems (and yours). It seems to me that your daughter is married to a very abusive, immature, and selfish man.

Oh good, glad I said #1 has to apologize, and then hopefully he gets help for treating his wife the way he does or with any luck, she'll walk. Bullies never grow up so you were wasting your breath.

(((((Kitykat))))). Given that it's your daughter who told, I'll take back what I said about the gossip by #2. Having a trusted confidant is also important, and not the same as gossiping.

I totally get what you meant about wanting to assess it on a rational level, but in doing so, it also created the false impression that #1, #2, and #3 are equals, like cousins or girlfriends so something. This is far more complicated than that. #1 and #2 are (should be) equals, but #1 + #2 are a unit disequal from #3. The relationship between #1 and #3 is also highly unequal to the relationship between #2 and #3.

In this circumstance, if apologizing to the SIL will make your daughter's life easier, it's worth doing. I totally understand why you're disinclined to do so but it sounds like you daughter has more than she can cope with with him, and it's a small enough concession if it'll help her out. You could apologize for being rude. That's no skin off your nose, nor even a concession. If it will do nothing to ease your daughter's misery, no need to bother. Least said soonest mended.

#3 needs to keep completely out of it because #1 and #2 will more than likely reunite. #3 should neeever say anything that doesn't carry positive vibes. Poor #2 appears the be the only victim (Of her own making if she stays with #1).

Three people need to get a life.

I have found people who did not INTENTIONALLY hurt the other feel no need to apologize if their behavior/words offend. This seems to come up in families A LOT!!! They do seem to say "You need to forgive and move on". HOW does one forgive when one knows the offender refuses to take even a minute piece of responsibility? For me it comes down to, moving forward, how would I TRUST this person to not re-offend? If they care so little that I was hurt, why would I waste my time on them? How much pride does it take to say "Oh, my I had no idea, I am soo sorry my words hurt ,that was not my intention". Pretty generic in my book. The apology is offered and no one is dealing with BLAME. Sadly in this overly assertive world we live in polite is not PC.

If they care so little that I was hurt, why would I waste my time on them?

arcy, that's effective if you want to continue the relationship. Beyond that, what keeps one on the train of thought to heal? just a thought.

Well if #1 SIL is a liar & threatens his wife, telling him to "grow up" is very ineffectual & really misses the mark of what needs to be done in their relationship. If these 2 are adults, I don't think it would be helpful at all to simply tell him to grow up & it just adds fuel to his fire of complaints and serves as a distraction. He obviously isn't introspect, so those words would have zero meaning to him...only allowing him to become "offended".

I don't think the dtr. should be crying & confiding these things to her mother. If there are really serious issues in the marriage, then she needs to seek professional help. Sounds like perhaps dtr needs to grow up too & handle her own marriage problems. Too often when this happens the dtr is just venting husband-frustrations, she gets over it, & Mom is left with ill feelings for SIL. Dtr needs a friend or counsellor to vent to, depending on how serious the marital problems are.