I need to re grade the backyard.Do I remove the sod or I turn it over?

9 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Hi guys

There is an epic thread around here with my troubles with a wet wall due to cheap work and bad design for a patio. Long story short: patio was sloped toward the house in one corner AND the soil resulted from the excavation when they installed the patio was spread around the house ruining the grading of the backyard. When you step on the lawn you can actually feel that is uneven and has gaps, ups and downs....

The patio slope is fixed now and I want to fix the grading of the backyard. The sod is poor quality and I would rather remove it and grow a new one by seeding or buying new sod.

Question: is there any problem if I use a rototiller to turn over the existing sod/lawn ?

Featured Answer

PKponder TX Z7B

9 years ago

Rototilling may leave you with a bumpy lawn within a few years when the disturbed soil settles.

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Yardvaark
9 years ago
Unless you are making some major soil amendment changes, I would skip the rototilling.

How bad really is the existing sod? If it still has a fairly high turf vs weed ratio, a good turf care company might be able to whip it back in shape. If it is very weedy, probably better to start with new grass. Depressions in lawns can be filled in easily with topsoil. Grass will quickly grow through it and look normal. (Best to cut grass VERY short before doing this.) If you decide to remove old grass as prep for sod, it would be best to rent a sod cutter and strip if off. If you're going to plant seed, kill existing with herbicide. After it's dead, a light rototilling prior to raking out for seed bed would be useful.
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Some of your photos are a little too close-up which makes it hard to grasp the context. What's certain is that the excavation needs to be somewhat larger than the finished product and then backfilled. I wouldn't label this overzealous grading. It requires a little extra room to perform the construction. So you see the maximum extent of space you have to build a patio. But there's nothing to stop you from shrinking it if you desire. However, thinking that putting dirt back around a tree is somehow equivalent to putting roots back is just not accurate. An amputation cannot be undone. Putting dirt back will make no difference. In spite of that, the tree will re-grow some roots as that's what they do. The ultimate patio size is a factor of desire and space available, but as patios go, it certainly doesn't look too large. Neither does it look like the ret. wall will be abnormally tall. Its curved shape will add strength. It will be stepping or sloped down in some way to generally follow the earth so it's highest section will not extend for great width. Its height is a balancing act between the patio elevation and the surrounding soil levels. Calculate these out and adjust them as you see fit. Raise the patio too much and you will be filling the bottom end or shrinking the patio size. Lower it and you'll be creating a taller retaining wall. Balance and moderation are the key. As I look at the pictures, I don't see anything that can't be worked out to a decent conclusion... if the right design decisions are made along the way. If this were my yard, I'd prefer the appearance of a nicely detailed mortared stone wall, but that requires more skill and higher cost material than the kind of block you're proposing. Therefore, it would be more expensive. But it would look better, too. What you decide on is a factor of cost vs. benefits as you see it. At the end of it all, it will be imperative that you establish groundcover capable of holding soil in place. This is a key to preventing erosion.
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Posierosie, did you not have a proliferation of weeks from the mulch? I did the same thing 3 years ago, and WITH the mulch came a batch of 'free' weeds! The landscaper also used the 'weed barrier' landscape fabric, which weeds grew right thru. With weeds from the mulch and weeds coming thru the fabric, I was outside every single week(sometimes twice a week!)weeding, trying to maintain some sort of a picture perfect backyard, yeah right! When I went away for 3 weeks to visit my best friend, my grandson did the usual yard maintenance of edging/mowing, but I didn't expect him to take on what had become my obcession with weed control. Upon coming back home, I told myself I had had enough! I had grandson help me remove the useless weed barrier as well as a good amount of the oversold 8"(yes 8"!!)of mulch, in hopes of getting a handle on the weeds. Of course all those efforts were in vain also. I now have the backyard weeds mowed, just as though it were grass, although there are bare spots. I'm thinking of re-sodding, since i'll be putting the house on the market to sell. Like somone else had mentioned, I had thought of a wildflower garden, but felt that would also bring it's share of weeds. I have learned one thing from this experience, a backyard can never be too SMALL! ;)
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Sunfire, DonÂt take anything I say as criticism, think of it as honest firm feedback OK? Assuming you do not have a shade issue, then the problem is likely your preferred choice of fertilizer. Now here is where I will contradict myself. At my home, I use only CGM at a rate of 20 pounds per 1000/ft2. However the soil around my home is rich sandy loam that was once farm land and horse barn. My organic matter is off the charts with over a century of TLC. The point I am making is my soil has an abundance of microbes and worms to break down the CGM. The other advantage I have is I pay only $120 per ton for CGM. You can use SBM if you wish. But it may take a few seasons for your soil to build up enough microbes to break down the SBM quickly enough to satisfy Bermuda. Bermuda is a nitrogen hog. I know you want to stick with Organics, but allow me to offer this. The 39-0-0 I recommend is organic IMHO. To be more accurate it is a man made synthetic/organic compound. Basically the same stuff everyone pees many times a day. That compound is Urea, a food additive for live stock. So try this one time and see what happens. Locate a Lesco-John Deer fertilizer dealer. Purchase 1 bag of product number 000777 which is the 39-0-0 slow release urea fertilizer. If you do not have a Lesco dealer around go to a box store and look for Vigaro product that uses urea. I do not know the product number off hand, but many posters on this forum have used it and hopefully chime in on the product number. I think it is something like a 35-0-3. Look at the label and see what is in it for a nitrogen source. Should be X % fast release urea, and Y % slow release urea. Apply the product, water it in, wait a week and see what happens. I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.
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As far as what kind of sod that depends on what is prevalent in your area. Without knowing where you live you are best to ask advice from your local full service nursery. For example, if you reside in northern latitudes, known to use a "cool season grass" a good sod that is available is a combo of Kentucky Blue/perennial ryegrass and fescue. The exact combination is up to the dealer but such combo, if you decide instead to seed, should provide an excellent lawn able to take what nature throws at. If you live in a transitional zone...i.e. across the middle of America..Tennessee, Virginia, Kentucky...you get the idea....you can try using either a northern type..a cool season type or a more southern warm season type. If you live in the south, then definitely consult your nurseryman and your neighbors who show good results with their lawns. Southern grasses are completely different than cool season types. Planting either where they don't belong is a good way to waste money and effort. Sod will not grow on top of old grass. That's the first thing you have to get rid of. Grass has to put down roots and it cant if it has to drill itself through hard clay soil holding old sod. Also, the clay soil as described, sounds like you have cement where grass should be. Tilling is the only thing you can do but further to that you have to ...you must....incorporate organic matter to make the grass want to grow and hold on to moisture. Organic matter comes in many forms; i.e. peat moss, newspaper and compost. Without going too deep into this you should do research on it. Without purchasing expensive compost, consult your soil dealer about what is called triple mix...a combo of different soils including sand. Whenever you see the word "SAND" used in conjunction with gardening, always think 'coarse sand', not beach sand, or playbox sand...that holds too much moisture. Coarse sand is larger and allows for good drainage. Coarse sand can be bought at soil dealers or from quarries--the place where gravel is bought. Drainage is one of the most used terms for good turf growth. Water should run away from the house. So it sounds like you have to till and one of the easiest ways to do that is to rent a roto-tiller..the size is dependent on what kind of soil it has to bite through. Into the soil which you dig down at least 6"...or more...you inject the organic matter. If you dig down 6", put at least 2" of organic matter in and turn it over. Then look to levelling and seeing to good drainage. Weeds, if you see them, pick out and garbage them. If your lawn is mostly weeds right now, I suggest you kill everything green there by the use of a glyphosate..i.e. RoundUp herbicide...it will kill the weeds, the grass presently there, anything and everything green so don't spray it around plants you don't intend to get rid of. Wait the time mentioned on the label before tackling the job of lawn replenishment. One thing about the use of RoundUP, use it according to directions and follow it exactly. Here, more is a waste just like using not enough. Moisture: Lawns require moisture at the right time. Usually that is 1" per week, rain notwithstanding. Fertilizer: Set up a fertilizing schedule with a high nitrogen type that will help grass grow and greens it up. Read the directions on the bag. To understand how much to spread, simply divide the first number (nitrogen) into 100--that is the amount per lb per 1000 square feet, to use. So if the bag contained 20/6/12....i.e. 20 percent nitrogen, 6 percent phosphurus, and 12 percent potash, then 20 into 100 = 5 lbs per 1000 square feet. If a bag contained 40 lbs, then it would cover 40 divided by 5 = 8000 square feet. Your small lawn...200 sq ft could be properly fed with 1 lb of fertilizer. But read the directions on the bag. If you live in a southern zone, then throw out the info on using a herbicide until you find out what it will do on your grass type and soil. Speak to your nurseryman before you do anything. Some types of southern grass cannot be given weed killers--it will kill the grass as well.
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t_d_harvey
9 years ago
Rototilling will result in a bumpy yard, causing you yard to settle in different areas years down the road as well as disturb and overturn new weed seeds. I strongly urge you not to rototill. You may want to post this in the Lawn forum or either search the lawn forum for "leveling yard." There is a great post that goes into great detail how to do this without removing existing sod. If grass is any decent shape, it will be easy to turn it into great shape with a little work and will be easier on the pocket book. As far as what material to use, builder sand is the best when leveling a yard. Play sand will work, but from what I understand, it may be more rounded and will not interlock like builders grade. There has been some people that have had success with play sand, so I do not see it as a problem if it is the cheaper way to go for you.

I encourage you to search the lawn forum for the post, but as to give you an idea of how to level your yard:

Do this while the grass is actively growing. Scalp your yard as low as you can go without gowing to dirt. Spread sand on yard and water in. You will start to see the sand move to the lower lying areas. I do not remember how frequent or how much water was used, but this will give you an idea. This may have to be repeated multiple times to get the smoothness that you are looking for.

Hope that gives you a start and idea of what to look for.
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Ivan Turbinca
Original Author
9 years ago
Hi guys

Thanks for the ideas, indeed it looks like rototilling is not a good idea since I can not control how deep the tiller will grind the soil.
Hmm...this leaves me with the only valid option, to remove the sod and to level and to properly grade the area. I was hoping that the tiller will save me work.
@yardvaark: I need to regrade the backyard, the former owner spread the soil that he excavated when he build the patio and now the patio and the house are lower that the yard around them. The main problem here is the grading not the lawn. Lawn has weeds and I would like to replace it rather than try to fix it
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t_d_harvey
9 years ago
I understand you wanting to re-plant new grass, but there are great people here that can help you easily eradicate your existing weed problem. Do you know what kind of grass you currently have? Re-sodding or seeding will not detour weeds. Proper lawn care make trance does. Just something to think about before you spend tons of $$'s to redo your lawn.
I seeded my Bermuda lawn 2 years ago and still have weed problems because it is still thins, but we proper care the weeds get less and less ever year.
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PRO
Yardvaark
9 years ago
Ivan, if you are asking me a question, I don't understand it.
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Ivan Turbinca
Original Author
9 years ago
@Yardvaark(9B): I am not asking you a question. Your answer was centered around the lawn not around regrading the backyard. Adding soil where I have gaps does not solve the regrading
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Ivan Turbinca
Original Author
9 years ago
@t_d_harvey I am trying to avoid having to remove the lawn and then putting it back. Since it is not in very good shape I would prefer to turn it over. Your suggestion is in the opposite direction and it does not serve my purpose: to regrade the yard
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t_d_harvey
9 years ago
What do u exactly mean by turn over the yard? I understand u have grade issues, but that can b an easy fix without removing or "turning over" the turf.

Are u having drainage issues? That you are trying to redirect? I honestly think you need to repost this in the lawn forum and you will have better results in answers that you may be looking for.
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Ivan Turbinca
Original Author
9 years ago
That is what the subject line starts with: " I need to re grade my yard".yeah, posting in the lawn section might help
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t_d_harvey
9 years ago
U may want to be more specific. You say a corner is bumpy, uneven, etc. how big is the section? Is water standing or flooding towards the house in this area? These are pretty big issues that I think need to be answered before proceeding. I should have read the title. Little closer but when u put in the description bumpy lawn, that tells me it's a leveling issue, not a grade/slope issue.
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PRO
Yardvaark
9 years ago
In this forum some people create a thread saying what they intend to do and are looking for advice on how to proceed in that direction. Many times, upon getting more information, it becomes apparent to some of us with experience in the field of landscaping, that it's the wrong direction. To be honest, I usually park what the person "wants to do" over to the side and instead try to understand the goals and objectives that are to be accomplished. Those are what determines the work that should be performed. At this point Ivan, I'm not sure what you are looking for, or can get from the advice-givers. What is it about regrading that you wish to know?
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Daniel Steele
2 years ago
Builders’ sand contains silica. It can kill your pets, your kids, and you. DO NOT BREATHE BUILDERS SAND DUST. IT IS HYPER DEADLY.
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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
2 years ago
Most sand - excepting ocean beach sand - has a high silica content. Playground or sandbox sand has a high silica content as it is primarily quartz, yet I can't recall any published incidents of small kids keeling over from playing in it.

Let's not get carried away with our comments, people. 😊
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I need to re grade the backyard.Do I remove the sod or I turn it over?

PKponder TX Z7B

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I need to re grade the backyard.Do I remove the sod or I turn it over?

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