I don't see how gender dysphoria really is different than racial dysphoria...

dna tests can show gender and race/s.

I don't know how we can absolutely identify what 'identity' of any type that 'resides in the brain' ... and then determine what is bogus and what is not... what is illness and what is not...

mental health is a continuum .....

mental health is a continuum .....

Well put!

Her brother (black) says she is white and messed up. He says there was no abuse. I feel sad for her parents. Her brother has his head on. He loves her, but doesn't understand. Nor do I. Not a fan of Caitlin either. If you were born with downs, could you now identify as normal? Doubt it. These people are off the map weird. Media should back off. But they are bored......

Every day there's a new revelation. I'm reserving judgment. It's obvious she lied about being black, but why? What happened in her past? Why did her parents choose to adopt 4 black children? Did her biological brother in fact molest one of the adopted boys? Why did that child seek emancipation at 16? Did Rachel claim him as her own son to protect him?

I find the Dolezale case fascinating. I don't think there is anything quite like it! Her hair, her skin tone is amazingly realistic.

There is a lot more to this story which is why the media is not shaking loose.

What really happened in this family?

Why did her parents adopt black kids? THERE ARE NO WHITE ONES AVAILABLE! We went through the adoption process. We had to go private adoption to get our white daughter. What is wrong with you judgmental people? These are parents who wanted to help kids and raise them in a good family. Unfortunately they had one of their own. They would have been better off with their adoptees than that birth child. When we adopted our daughter it was serious. The judge said, "you can never dis-own her. She is yours." But they can dis-own this evil woman, and I hope they do.

Just a few random thoughts and questions I have regarding this subject:

I have to admit, I have hardly read or listened to anything about this, so forgive me if I am missing a lot in this big story-BUT, what is the big deal if she thinks and wants to be black? Who is she hurting?

I see no difference in someone like Caitlyn (stoooopid name for a 62 year old, btw) who identifies as a woman and from this lady identifying to be black.

Should a transgender male tell everyone he meets he used to be female-FOREVER? Or have I got that mixed up-is he transgender female? I'm so confused now!

No one is who they really are-what is happening??? It used to be so simple-man, woman, black, white, etc..

We either let people be who they want to be, or we don't-can't have it both ways.

'evil' ???!!!? I have a different understanding of the definition of evil!! (and probably a different definition of judgmental too!)

Suzi, USA adoptions

Suzi, I think CindyMac was just throwing out questions, not judging people for adopting 4 children of a different race, esp. in the context of this weird story. There might be a lot of background we don't know. Asking questions isn't wrong.

Rachel D. may be a lot of things, but I think "evil" is a kinda weird thing to call her.

I agree; I have a gut feeling she's the opposite of evil.

"She was caught in an authenticity trap, a ludicrous phony when she tried to pass as black and a “problematic” white artist exploiting black subjects when she didn’t."

This is from what Beagles posted above. Hearing the Today show interview this morning, I can understand this inauthenticity better. She said something to the effect that she knew she would get caught and have to explain herself and that she never corrected articles that referred to her as African American, biracial, etc. She completed a graduate degree and is not stupid.

Interesting about your HS classmate, jlc.

I didn't even think she looked more than a quarter black at the most. When this first came out and I saw her I thought "of course she's not black, she's almost as European as I am." I don't think there would be an issue if she were a private citizen so to speak, but she was the local leader of a national black association.

Even the NAACP said that being Black was not a requirement for the job, and she apparently did a good job with the chapter leadership from what I read a couple of days ago.

I remember this from earlier this year when a reporter on the red carpet asked actress Rashida Jones what was the secret of her tan. She is the daughter of producer Quincy Jones and former "Mod Squad" actress Peggy Lipton. I remember as a kid people making a very big deal that a famous actress like Peggy Lipton was married to a Black man.

I think a lot of people assumed Rashida Jones was Caucasian.

http://www.eonline.com/news/618531/rashida-jones-explains-to-reporter-why-she-looked-so-tan-at-the-sag-awards-i-m-ethnic

Olliesmom said: Should a transgender male tell everyone he meets he used to be female-FOREVER?

I think it depends on the relationship.

If it is a romantic relationship, the answer is "Yes". You tell every romantic relationship the truth, forever. The cashier at the grocery store, the answer is "No".

As regards Rachel Dolezal and the NAACP, I think the answer is "Yes". She should not have said that she was bi-racial. Her work with them was in the context of race relations. She should not have been deceptive.

In response to Oly, Black faculty with PhD's are highly recruited by universities. They are a very small portion of the applicant pool, and finding someone who has the skill set to teach a specific subject or course can be quite challenging.

Suzi, what an odd notion that an adopted child cannot be disowned, regardless of what he or she does in life, but a biological child can? I don't think Rachael Dolezal is evil and I also don't think her parents are Ozzie and Harriet.

Whoa--- read this account in WaPo of her brother. His account in his book seems to affirm the family's "subsistence living" experiment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/16/rachel-dolezals-brother-author-joshua-dolezal-faces-trial-for-alleged-sexual-abuse-of-a-black-child/

And in another interesting revelation:

" A Google search of Dolezals’ parents yielded little information other than that her father served as the Commissioner for Lincoln County, Montana in the late 1990’s. Interestingly, Larry Dolezal was tried for two charges of felony theft for making false reimbursement claims for mileage and meals in 1997 and 1998."

According to the article, "The judge dismissed the case for lack of evidence, but investigators still found it strange that Dolezal’s mileage claims included “numerous Sunday trips to a church in the Yaak,” a remote area of Montana."

This is the man who said he taught his daughter to "tell the truth." Uh huh.

The story is evolving but what sealed the deal for me were her accusations of being a victim of "hate crimes" which appears to be a lie, and her speaking engagements where she implies she has had to struggle as a minority.

tho, it does sound like she struggled some as a minority at howard...

She claimed to have been discriminated against, but it was thrown out. I think she probably "struggled with" being a minority, but she chose to go where she would be a minority .... Literally went out of her way to do so.

As I said days ago, I think there is little doubt the hate crimes were fabricated, if only for their volume. I feel sorry for this very confused woman.

Adding upon reflection that I would be remiss if I did not say I think the extremely odd upbringing she apparently had has clearly contributed to her mental state today, as well as her brother's allegations that Rachael Dolezal's husband was abusive.

From Radar Online:

Dolezal is fielding multiple offers to film a reality show, and is seeking professional representation after her bombshell interview on the Today show.

A plea to my fellow Americans- please do not let this happen as I will be forced to give up all hope in the future of humanity.

oh, geez... that's what we need-- another 'reality' show --- of ANY kind!! UGH!!!

ARGH. Now she said on the Today show this morning that she is bisexual. I don't care if she is or isn't, but it's calling more attention and just adding more fuel to the fire.

Here is the full interview from last night with Melissa Harris-Perry. It's 38 minutes long.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/rachel-dolezal-breaks-her-silence-i-identify-black

Loved her comment on the Today Show that “there was no biological proof” that her white mother gave birth to her - guess she thinks she was created by fairies. This woman is obviously delusional.

Yeah, this has nothing to do with a "movement" or a "conversation" about race. The media should know enough to back away now, and leave this unhappiness to play out privately. I sure do hope she did not frame her author-brother, as some have intimated. How cruel. She has been found to be a liar, point-blank, and is certainly nonsensical at times, so it would not surprise me if she made these charges up.

4Heidesign

"Loved her comment on the Today Show that “there was no biological proof” that her white mother gave birth to her - guess she thinks she was created by fairies. This woman is obviously delusional."

Wait.... what? This is a woman who was educated at a prominent University, hasn't she ever heard of DNA?

I'll admit, I haven't been following the story since Monday. After I was reading the adopted sister's blog, it was obvious there is a lot going on in that family and everyone is highly dysfunctional. I just don't even know what to think anymore. It's actually very sad.

"The media should know enough to back away now, and leave this unhappiness to play out privately."

Agree completely; but now they smell blood and are in full exploitative furor.

I listened to a discussion about Dolezal on the radio today. I believe that two of those in the discussion were black professors. Anyway, one of them said that what Rachel has done is the epitome of white privilege, in that she just "decides" that she wants to be black. And can go back to being white whenever she wants.

But, in her mind she identifies as black and lived as black. She doesn't WANT to go back to being white. Here lies the difference. She connected to such a degree that it became her reality.

This part is not as disturbing to me as the rest of the stories that are coming out. But, then, can someone be completely "normal" if they decide to be black and aren't? (Not even a tad?)

My question to the NAACP is, would identifying as multiracial because of the Native American ancestry still be good enough to qualify for the positions that she held as president and her other volunteer functions?

Asfar as Dolezal taking the place of a black person at Howard, this happens across the board at all schools.

I just googled Howard U and the Washington Post states that 1 % of students enrolled are white.

Another question. What do you think of dads being Girl Scout Leaders? The council where I volunteered felt okay with this. I totally disagreed. The premise of girls scouts is to have strong female role models! The only up side of the scenario was evidentially they couldn't find one mom to lead the troop so at least they got to participate.

The black NAACP members have every right to feel duped. A chapter president is supposed to be a role model and representative of their race. I am okay with this, but it is all the speculation that is coming out that bothers me.

You are not black, step down, end of story.

I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with RD exerting her 'white privilege' ...

busybee3, I'm interested to know why you think that. I think, even if she doesn't understand it, that's what allows her to "decide" is totally about white privilege. I'd be interested in how a discussion would go, should an African American/Black person, with two Black parents decide they "identified" as white. No matter how they feel inside, the rest of the world is going to respond to them another way. They will be subject to all the prejudices and oppression our culture has assigned to them, just as a white person enjoys all the privileges of being white. And I don't think the vast majority of people (who are suggesting it can be decided) would be so understanding about someone who is Black getting to "decide" their identity.

I think many people have said that they believed Michael J 'identified' as white (and some said female)... his wealth allowed him to make some alterations to his body that the average person couldn't... whether he really did or not, who the heck knows- I don't know that he ever publicly said one way or the other... I do think he alienated himself from many of the black community...

I would guess that he was a very troubled man and that she is a troubled woman...

but, if she truly 'identifies' as a black person I don't really know how that could be called 'white privilege' any more than a man who identifies as a woman is 'male privilege'...

but, if she truly 'identifies' as a black person I don't really know how that could be called 'white privilege' any more than a man who identifies as a woman can be called 'male privilege'...

Hence the title of this thread. People have felt very entitled to judge her motives and actions, and while I personally have many questions I think this may be one of the areas about which we simply have to take the claimant at his or her word, the same standard we apply for people who identify as a different gender. Bruce Jenner's actions---marrying a woman after he "knew" and acknowledged to others that he identified as a woman, living as a man, fathering more children---would all seem to belie his stated belief and yet no one questioned the validity of his claim.

It's very complicated.

Michael Jackson did not go around telling people (to my knowledge) that he was born white and born--biologically-- a female. He did not try to pass as white or female. Bruce Jenner and other transgendered people I know, particularly of the older generation have often lived the better part of their lives as the sex they were born with, and have fathered children. (I don't know any female to male very well, but I do know of males who had adult children by the time they started living as female.) I think there is a great deal of denial and suppression when it comes to gender and sexual issues. And who knows, maybe Dolezal has a dysphoria in which she feels she was born the wrong race, but that still doesn't mean you can go around and say you are, when measurable standards say you are not--without there being some implications.

I could go around convinced that I am physically beautiful, independently wealthy, and of super genius intellect, and I could try to convince other people that this is so, but since by measurable standards I am none of these things, it would just make me a liar, or if I truly believed it, delusional.

I say two out of those three aren't bad, Pal :)

Well, technically Bruce Jenner isn't a woman either-but we are calling him one. Taking hormones and dressing like one doesn't technically make you one-even after surgically removing his penis. He still looks like a 6'2" man with huge feet and hands walking around dressed as a woman. But, that is beside the point-where does it stop? Or, should it? I don't know what to think anymore.

Pal, maybe if Michael Jackson could have thought he would have gotten away with it, he would have? Maybe there are other people walking around who aren't recognizably famous doing the same thing-we just don't know it.

olliesmom So then what makes a woman? Is it a vagina? Is it breasts? What about women who have had to have a double mastectomy and choose not to get implants. Are they no longer a woman? What about women who are naturally over 6 ft tall and have large hands and feet, are they no longer women because they are not dainty? Some people that are born transgendered do not even end up doing the sugery, but they do still believe they are the opposite sex. This is something that are aware of at a young, young age.

In the case of Dolezal, I do not for a minute believe what she is saying. She contradicts herself in saying she was using the brown crayon at age 5 but then says as a teen she didn't consider herself black. It wasn't even until she was almost College age that her parents adopted her black siblings. Another thing is to actually look at her face as she is speaking. Go back and watch her interviews and you can see small nuances in her facial expression.

I guess I wish instead of a knee jerk "this is different and I don't like it!" reaction, people could be secure enough in themselves and their own identities to say something like: "Wow, I've never had those thoughts and feelings about my gender but clearly this other person has...how interesting that we don't all go through life on the same path."

NYT and CBC have been giving time to Elinor Burkett, previously known as the woman who Kanye'd the Oscars, to tell everyone that men and women's brains are exactly the same and that it's periods and growing up in fear for your physical safety that make a woman (because trans people don't have to worry about violent attacks). So since she's never had a period, Caitlyn in no way knows what it's like to be a woman and why don't those angry trans folks shut up already (PS she apparently thinks that not only are trans women not women, but trans men are also not women? I wonder how she feels about women who've never ovulated?). Who in the world thinks there's only one way to be a woman?! I hope to God I have more in common with Laverne Cox than this kook, at least in terms of class, empathy and intelligence. It's jerks like this that give feminism such a bad name.

I think if you analyzed the violence against trans people here, and the murder rate, it would be much higher than the general population. Mostly because a lot of them have precarious living situations and a fair number of them in this city seem to be prostitutes.

I have only read a few of the comments but what I think is a crock about the whole affair is that by trying to pass as black she is denying a black person that job. If this is okay then why do we have affirmative action? It does seem to me that we are on a slippery slope here. I really don't care what race she "identifies" as, the fact is she is white.

If what we are is truly judged only by what we feel we are, or identify as, then why do we bother with a census? The next time I get one I am seriously thinking about checking every box. Maybe the day will come that we identify as only one thing, human being. Perhaps we would be better off if we didn't have to fit into a niche.

I can tell you that I identify as a tall, thin woman but no matter what I do I will never be able to pull this one off unless anyone knows of a rack from a torture chamber that I can buy.

that's like saying, 'i don't care what gender someone identifies with... the fact is he is a male', right?? what really is the difference between identifying with a different race and identifying with a different gender?? and, those who 'identify' with a particular religion can convert quite easily these days.....

RD didn't need to be a black person to be hired for her job, so she didn't deny a black person the job... maybe they were considering another white person for the job? or an Asian or Hispanic? i don't know

affirmative action has also helped women... same question could be asked re: jenner-- isn't he/she denying another woman that job?

littlemonkeys, to me, personally, if you have a vagina, your are a woman. I was halfway kidding about him being so tall and such, yes, I know there are tall women.

When the media (Oprah in particular) was making such a big deal about the "pregnant man"-really??? He was technically woman, wasn't he/her? What was the all the amazement about him/her getting pregnant???

I also think it would be a disservice to a female in the Olympics if a transgendered male was to compete against other women. If Bruce Jenner had transgendered when he was really young and made it to the Olympics as a woman, in a women's event, and later we found out he was born a male-what do you think?

Pal - just a clarification that I agree completely. Trans people appear to suffer a truly disproportionate amount of violence, therefore I found Burnett's argument specious.

Olliemom - what if you have more than one vagina? That's a real thing. Is that twice the woman? How about women born without ovaries or women born without a vagina. Are they not women? Info on MRKH syndrome. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1832178/

Just providing some food for thought.

Just editing to add the statistics for MRKH, it effects 1 in every 4500 newborn females.

Jenner and Dolezal can *identify* until the cows come home, but as Popeye would say, I am *what* I am. 'nuf said.

busybee3, being Black was likely not a prerequisite for being hired at the Naacp - that would not be a bonafied job requirement allowing discrimination. However, I would think that an organization such as that would hire a qualified Black candidate over a qualified white candidate. Because the unemployment rate for Blacks is so much higher than for whites, it's entirely possible a qualified Black candidate lost out on this job opportunity. And quite frankly, if I was running that organization, I would not hire any white person who thought they should be at the helm. Same as I wouldn't hire any man to run a women's organization, or a straight person who thinks they should run an organization primarily for gay people. Just the fact that someone can't see that they shouldn't be in those positions disqualifies them for me.

but, would you hire a man to woman transgender like jenner for a woman's organization tho?? would he need to disclose upon applying that he 'used to be a man'?? he needed surgery, probably makeup, meds, etc to look like a woman... he has chromosomes who still claim him to be a man, even tho he may now have a constructed vagina and breasts... so is he lying if he checks the F gender box?? ( checking a box isn't even required!!! )

she might have claimed to be black to whatever degree, but they still interviewed her and discussed her goals and qualifications, etc -- and they saw her!! she clearly looks quite white! there are white people who have skin color like hers and hair like hers (without perms ) ... she looks like she might be biracial... lots of people do these days with the increasing prevalence of interracial marriages. and, with different hair straightening options these days, many people of color have glossy, straight hair... whites with olive skin tones or those who tan can easily be mistaken for biracial. there are many, many, many shades of 'black' and all those shades do not experience equal degrees of discrimination these days...