I put about 8 bags of topsoil down there, 5 inches deep at the most, directly on the existing soil/roots. I had dug a few areas kind of testing out the soil to seed if I wanted to plant directly in the existing soil but decided to to raise it up a bit. For me, ferns, pulmonarias and hellebores do quite well there plus Tiarella and spring ephemerals like bleeding heart and Virginia blue bell. Astilbes dry out way too much. The surrounding trees are all doing fine. I have mostly ash trees there. I think if you do not cover a significant area beneath the tree or do not sever the roots in a large circle around the tree, the tree will adapt. Normally that tree would hAve years of leaf litter accumulating above the roots--it looks as though you remove the leaves. I would not plan on putting down 5 inches of soil across the entire drip area of the tree though. I think either a curved section of raised bed in front of that edger you have or a couple of individual beds would work fine there and give you spaces to add a bit of variety to your back yard.

OK. In your post about cover crops I mentioned that generally native plants don't need a lot of soil improvement, being already adapted to local soils as is. I think since your soil had a lawn growing more or less successfully on it, you don't need to worry much about improving the soil. If you were in new construction that would be a different matter but you're not. In our rainforests, as in most rainforests, there is very little organic matter or nutrient content in the soil itself. Too much rain, everything gets washed out. The nutrients tend to be contained in plant biomass, either living or relatively recently dead and fallen to the ground. If you were to dig a soil profile in the Quinault rainforest there'd be an organic layer of leaf and twig debris on top of the soil along with fallen logs and branches; then there'd be a very very thin A horizon which is where most soil microbial activity takes place; then there'd be a heavily leached B horizon (the lower part of what's called topsoil) and below that there might be subsoil or there might be just rock, or a glacial hardpan. I'm surprised at how thin the soil is that these trees are growing on! Roadcuts and landslides in the Olympics show big doug firs growing in just a few inches of soil on top of bedrock. Typically for rainforests, both temperate and tropical, most nutrient recycling take place in the organic litter on top of the soil and the top few inches of soil. Some plant roots reach deeper of course but mainly for water and balance, there's not much microbial activity down there. That's one reason you see so many plants growing on top of rotting logs and stumps - it's where the nutrients are. So, what to do with your garden. You could plant now, without adding anything to the planting holes, and mulch around the plants - that would mimic their native environment. In our area you can plant hardy plants any time the soil is neither frozen nor waterlogged. If this will be your first winter in this garden, you might want to see how it performs over the winter, flooding and drainage wise, before finalizing your planting plan. Or, to be sure you've gotten the lawn grasses out, you could go with the cardboard covered with manure and tree chips route, then plant in spring. Typical ryegrass lawns are not that persistent, but if you had bentgrass or quackgrass, you need to be sure it's gone before planting. Adding organic mulches should take care of any nutrient needs. Yes our soils are typically low in calcium, but that's what the native plants are used to. Don't worry about it, or the pH. Leaf mold from deciduous trees would add calcium too, it's the coniferous stuff that makes our soil acid and calcium deficient. But what does 'deficient' mean if you're growing plants that are adapted to that state?? Calcium content is mainly an issue when growing (non native) plants from areas where the soil provides more calcium than ours does. What, no salal?

Another one-- ...When you attend a professional meeting, and, instead of trading business cards with the other attendees, you talk gardening and composting, and get an offer of leaves from someone who has a great big oak tree in her yard! * Posted by: kdbern Georgia (My Page) on Sun, Feb 9, 03 at 21:54 I can't believe my luck today! I have spent 8 hours mulching and raking leaves to bring home from a friend?s house on a beautiful sunny day, then I find this link and have had the best time reading it. I had even asked my hubby today to pee on the compost and he said I was crazy! I feel like this was such a wonderful day, I can't think of any other way I would have liked to spend it and this definitely was the best way to end it. * Posted by: roselust z10, so cal (My Page) on Sun, Feb 9, 03 at 22:11 ...when you find yourself seated in a chair with a glass of chardonnay in one hand and using the other to hand-pick earthworms from your compost pile during a beautiful sunset, knowing life cant get any better. * Posted by: Okanagan z5-6 BC (My Page) on Mon, Feb 10, 03 at 15:32 Oh I'm glad I found this web site. I thought I was the only wacko who turned the compost for peace of mind, always curious to find out what is going on in there, scavenging compostables everywhere, including the clippings from haircuts and cat-combing, and the dirty dishwater. Now if I can reroute the greywater... A number of people IRL call me "the compost lady" ... but that is not going to distinguish me here, is it? :) ...when your favourite book is "Compost This Book". * Posted by Mountainsong z7b GA (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 11:51 I am going into withdrawal from the compost wacko thread! I tend to be way too serious, so when I first found the thread this fall, and sat there on Saturday mornings reading it and laughing out loud, my family was amazed! Now, stress from my job is reaching epic proportions, and I NEED to connect to other wackos! Where are you? (You know you're a compost wacko if you look for the thread on Saturday morning and are forlorn when you can't find it!) * Posted by: TXDana z8TX (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 12:57 I've been wondering where they were, too! Then I remembered that I consider myself a CW. A few days ago my husband and I drove to a friend of my husband's house. This was the first time I had been to his house and the first time I had met him. Normal people greet people with "hello, how are you?" type of comments. Not this compost wacko! He said "hello" to me, and I responded with "I wish I had brought a bucket so I could have taken some of your horse manure". My husband just sighed and shook his head. He really thinks I'm a nut. Did I help your withdrawal? * Posted by: Mountainsong z7b GA (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 13:54 Dana, thanks for your compassion! I'm going to seek further therapy by checking out the new worm farm to see if any of our 10 cocoons have hatched yet (yes, I counted them, but they were in a large yogurt container at the time, so that's not too weird, right?) Vermiculturists are kindred spirits! :0) * Posted by: Demeter z6 NJ (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 14:34 Alas, with a forum as active as this one, if a thread has not been posted to for more than a month and a half or so, it vanishes off the bottom of the list ... and the wacko threads are so popular that they rapidly reached the 100 post limit and then naturally passed into oblivion. Sooooo..... somebody start a new "You Know You're A Compost Wacko" thread! * Posted by: ryanzone7 z7MD (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 16:05 ...you know you're a compost wacko when you're standing with a group of people who know you are a cw, except for one person and when that person sez something even remotely related to compost EVERYONE looks right at YOU! * Posted by: thorspippi z9 Sac CA (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 16:51 I'm not yet even a certified CW and they're already doing that.... simply because I'm now spinning & weaving my dog's hair! Therefore, I must be some kind of Generic Nature Wacko (GNW). Hey, he is a LONG HAIR german shepherd and he's 100 lbs... that's a LOT OF HAIR. My worms simply couldn't handle all that hair. * Posted by: zabby17 z5a Canada (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 04 at 22:50 ... when your dog gets excited if you pick up the kitchen compost bucket. (Not, alas, because she's particularly interested in recycling or gardening, but because she knows her nightly pee outing to the back yard happens when Zabby's ready to take the scraps out to the composter... [hey, I'm not going out there TWICE on one of these cold nights!]) * Posted by: Bostonian z6 MA (My Page) on Sun, Feb 8, 04 at 9:27 The women in the H.S. Cafeteria where I work save me the coffee grounds and veggie scraps. The maintenance men roam through the kitchen picking up the cardboard boxes and sometimes find my scraps and throw them out! Now the women are like no, that?s Kathy?s. Then they give me a look like ?We don?t understand you but we once again protected your trash" * Posted by: PaulNS NS zone 6a (My Page) on Sun, Feb 8, 04 at 10:56 It's late fall. You get on your jacket to go out and empty the compost bucket onto the pile and take its temperature. Then you reconsider and put on a warmer jacket and gloves, so that the experience will be leisurely instead of rushed. * Posted by: plumeria50 z9CA (My Page) on Sun, Feb 8, 04 at 12:43 ...you know you're a compost wacko when you have to wait for night fall to sneak into the front yard to dig a very big hole to put some gross, refrigerator dead stuff in...hoping the neighbors arent going to walk by any time soon. * Posted by: JCin_Los_Angeles z10, Sunset 22, (My Page) on Mon, Feb 9, 04 at 0:29 ...when your DH comes back from the car wash very embarrassed about the horse manure that had slipped out of the box on the way home from the stable. There were horse turds in plain sight and everyone saw them, and he can't see why we had to use HIS car. (Because he has a hatchback and we had to fit the bale of straw in there too.) He complains about having a compost wacko for a wife but doesn't complain at all about the fruits and vegetables! * Posted by: Clare z6 MO (My Page) on Mon, Feb 9, 04 at 10:44 ...when you feel like you've hit the jackpot upon seeing that someone abandoned a bale of straw on the K-Mart parking lot and you get to put it in your trunk and bring it home. * Posted by: Karalyn Z6 W. Boise (My Page) on Mon, Feb 9, 04 at 11:43 Two things I did or plan on doing is; I over heard a woman that I know at church talk to a little girl about coming over to feed her horses. I asked, Hey, do you have any horse poop I can have?" She said, "Oh, do we, my husband would be very glad to get rid of some." She lives close by, so I just need my pick up truck and persuade my 18 year old son that he wants to help me, since we are paying for his first credit card boo boos. Also, when I take my 12 year old son to school a few times, I notice a bale of hay on the roadside in front of their house, I don't know if it is for the garbage man to take or what, but their garbage was out and the bale is still there. So I will check it out later to see if they pick up the bale of hay or straw. I was in my PJ's at the time, so I wasn't going to ring their door bell. Also, I go out in the dark or with my coat on over my PJ's and at night dump out shredded paper, etc. on certain areas of my yard that needs it. * Posted by: ryanzone7 z7MD/ professor dirt (My Page) on Mon, Feb 9, 04 at 12:05 ...you drive by three bale's of straw left over from construction (used as a silt block over the storm drains a year ago) sitting in the middle of Georgia Ave near Whites hardware and you lust for them and are just waiting for the right time to snatch them (before they wash INTO the repaired storm drains and cause a "construction repeat".) Perhaps tommorow. It all leads back to compost! * Posted by: maryann12 7 (My Page) on Mon, Feb 9, 04 at 17:24 You know you are becoming a wacko?.. When your brother and his wife visit from out of state (they have a compost pile), you don't worry about how your house looks, you worry about how your compost pile looks. * Posted by: Harimad zone 7 (My Page) on Wed, Feb 11, 04 at 10:03 You know you're a compost wacko when... ... even though you detest coffee, you consider working at Starbucks for easy access to its trash. You know you're a compost wacko when... ... the weekly pound of coffee goes straight to the garden, never seeing the inside of your kitchen. * Posted by: Karalyn Z6 W. Boise (My Page) on Wed, Feb 11, 04 at 11:02 ...you know you have become one, when you slyly walk over to check out your neighbor's garbage and her recycle bin. Bonanza! The blue bin is full of newspaper. I checked a dog food bag, hoping to see some newspaper waste from her big parrots. I didn't dare lift the lids to the other garbage cans. But I did rake up the leaves on her property next to mine where we share a mutual irrigation ditch plus all the wonderful rotting maple leaves in the ditch. I built a compost bin nearby with builder's block from my FIL's old milk house built in 1929. We have a bunch more to collect from eastern Idaho. Lined it with a some newspaper, then a wet phone book someone threw into our trash can next to our shop doors and also a bag full of apples! Must have been my eldest son or my hubby. I couldn't believe my find. My 12 year old saves the phone books for his BSA camp outs. Good to start a fire with LOL So I guess he missed out on this one. WE get extra phone books from our neighbors who passes them out in the fall. One thing my son did was have the nerve to take one of the blocks from my compost bin to place under his snowmobile trailer's tongue when he got back. I did go out later at night to get the dog food bag and some more newspaper. Then in the morning, I could have gotten more newspaper, but didn't dare. I think the recycle people would be disappointed. Now I'm just going to ask her if I can collect her used paper. The dog food bag was a bust. Oh, well. * Posted by: snowgardener z4 NY (My Page) on Thu, Feb 12, 04 at 14:35 ...you know you're a compost wacko when you make your kids bring home their banana peels, orange peels, apple cores, etc. from their school lunches. * Posted by: Mountainsong z7b GA (My Page) on Thu, Feb 12, 04 at 22:26 ...you know you're a compost wacko when your 8-year-old daughter shows definite signs of indoctrination: upon arriving at Starbuck's, she hurries straight past the plate of amazing chocolate chunk cookies to the "Free Coffee Grounds" basket, and returns announcing gleefully: "There are 7 bags of coffee grounds. Seven!" ... when you're embarrassed that your neighbor returning home at 8:30 p.m. will catch you in the headlights, and see that you are dumping your latest Starbucks cache onto one of the front yard's lasagna beds in the pitch dark. You are not, however, embarrassed enough to stop your chore, and dump three more bags on the bed before calling it a night. * Posted by: ryanzone7 z7MD/professor dirt (My Page) on Thu, Feb 12, 04 at 23:04 ...you think about piles (bins/tumbler loads/whateva) you've had in the past and remember them fondly like some people remember baseball games they've attended or first (second or third) dates they've had. ialbtc * Posted by: TeresaInCAL 9 California ) on Fri, Feb 13, 04 at 17:04 Hey, I thought I was the only one who thought about getting a job at Starbucks, JUST for the coffee grounds...LOL I've also considered buying cheep coffee (on sale) JUST for the compost pile... * Posted by: Linda_8B (My Page) on Fri, Feb 13, 04 at 17:43 Ha! I actually considered a part-time job at a local grocery store, just for the compost materials. Later I found out that they're so strict about not giving out the veggie and fruit waste that any employee giving any away to customers or taking any home can be fired. The dumpsters are those large closed systems, so can't even raid them. What a world we live in! * Posted by: Storygardener 5/6 central oh (My Page) on Fri, Feb 13, 04 at 17:54 I guess I am a compost wacko too...yes, whenever I watch the cooking shows on TV I am just as interested in the scraps of veggies, peels , etc -as I am interested in the finished dish. * Posted by: Alfie_MD6 (My Page) on Sat, Feb 14, 04 at 8:00 ...you embarrass your sister-in-law by waiting until everyone is looking the other way and then whipping out the plastic bags you somehow always seem to have in your bookbag and packing up the amazing quantity of ordered, paid for, and uneaten food the playgroup that just went away left for the café to throw out. (Actually, she was quite understanding; it's just that her particular anti-waste thing is the amount of packaging everything comes in.) ...you ignore all of the plants at the twice-yearly plant swap just so that you can go talk to Professor Dirt about how he gets to compost for a living. * Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Sat, Feb 14, 04 at 14:16 Just spotted a new farm up the street (about 2 country miles) That now has chickens, sheep and cows The cow pile has about 3 pick up loads already :-) * Posted by: ryanzone7 z7MD/professor dirt (My Page) on Sun, Feb 15, 04 at 5:19 I miss my windrow turner, I all have now to turn my "big" piles is a farm tractor, and for the task at hand it's like using a shovel to sweep the side walk, it can do it but ......... How's that for being a compost wacko? * Posted by: catfromtex 9 - Sunny So Cal (My Page) on Sun, Feb 15, 04 at 11:50 ...you know you're a wacko when you've accepted a new job w/great $$ and benefits and the part you?re excited about is having access to the muck from your new employer's horse stables. * Posted by: maryslc z5-6 (My Page) on Mon, Feb 16, 04 at 0:10 ...you REALLY know you're a compost wacko when a a co-worker says they haven't been able to bring themselves to spread a family members cremains.............and you eagerly offer to take care of it for them. * Posted by: squeeze z8 BC (My Page) on Mon, Feb 16, 04 at 0:40 they know you're wacky at the stable where you're picking up a truckload of horse biscuits, when they say "can you take this bale of moldy hay?" and you say "yes, PLEASE!!" - and they do look at you funny, when you say "thank you very much!" * Posted by: veilchen 5b s. Maine (My Page) on Mon, Feb 16, 04 at 8:02 That before you even saw this thread, you reminded yourself this morning to check the weather report on the computer before you log off, to see if there is going to be a thaw anytime soon so you can try to turn your compost pile. * Posted by: thorspippi z9 Sac CA (My Page) on Mon, Feb 16, 04 at 14:04 ...when your husband offers to start up a newspaper subscription because you've been bugging him to put his office papers in a separate box so you can shred it. (I told him NO that defeats the whole point!) * Posted by: cherylm z5ma (My Page) on Mon, Feb 16, 04 at 23:24 when you're accumulating a plastic storage boxful in the basement- coffee grounds, fruit and veg peels, a little shredded newspaper and a dab of old potting soil- no smell! and if it ever gets warm enough and melts some snow, i might get it to the real pile! * Posted by: plumeria50 z9CA (My Page) on Wed, Feb 18, 04 at 4:33 You know you're a compost wacko when you are eyeing the neighbors? pumpkins on display for Halloween and wondering how you are going to slyly get some of those pumpkins for your compost heap. Also, how you are going to pick up several on the curb before the garbage trucks come for them...without the neighbors seeing you. * Posted by: Harimad zone 7 (My Page) on Wed, Feb 18, 04 at 11:09 If you're worried about the neighbors seeing you, you may still be wacko-in-training. When you don't care, then you're definitely a wacko. If your neighbors give it to you or put it in your pile instead of in the trash can, then you're a prophet (ie, wacko with following). * Posted by: organic_johnny z6b PA (My Page) on Wed, Feb 18, 04 at 11:57 When you send your teenage son out for leaf bags...(which my mom did to me...I'm a 2nd gen cw). * Posted by: PaulNS NS zone 6a (My Page) on Wed, Feb 18, 04 at 12:34 When you create a 4'x4'x4' pile of crab waste and sawdust compost in a hurry, not mixing the materials enough or using enough sawdust, so that your good intentions turn into a Raging Pile of Stink which drifts clear over to the neighbours' place and lies down heavily on them during a heat wave and they are good neighbours so they only mention it politely after putting up with it for three days and you do everything within your power to muffle the smell including shovelling garden soil on top and surrounding the pile with bales of straw, to no avail, and all the while you're secretly and gleefully gloating over the big pile of rot in your yard which, really, objectively speaking, any normal person would consider smells fascinating. * Posted by: Storygardener 5/6 central oh (My Page) on Wed, Feb 18, 04 at 12:52 ....when at the garden club meeting last night I took all the plant litter from the demonstration and put it in my coat pocket for my compost pile. * Posted by: Nelz z5b/6 NW PA (My Page) on Thu, Feb 19, 04 at 23:49 Your wife mentions horse and pony for herself and daughter, and all you can picture is a pitchfork, a wheel barrow, and a dirty stall, and you smile LARGE!! * Posted by: Karalyn Z6 W. Boise (My Page) on Fri, Feb 20, 04 at 13:58 You are a wacko when....you go to your son's high school for a ski trip meeting and notice the little tractor and flatbed trailer full of bags and pizza boxes! I just grab 2 boxes on our way out, and I think one had spit on it from a student from the above corridor. This was around 7:45PM and dark. Also, the next door neighbor that I took some newspaper from her bin comes over to where I'm adding to the compost bin and I'm in my pj's, coat and NEW BLUE RUBBER BOOTS and asks, "What do I have there?" I told her what I was up to and told her I was raking up the leaves in the ditch, clearing up the grass, etc. She said I could have all the leaves I want and I asked about the newspaper and she said she'll just leave the bin by my compost bin. Cool, huh? ;-) Also, when hubby comes home from Nevada after cleaning casinos and brings me two packets of coffee that will make 4 cups. LOL Not quite the garbage bag full of Starbuck's coffee grounds, but I'm sure it will make a nice tea! I still don't have him "dumpster diving" at the restaurants he takes care of for greens or coffee grounds etc. He says it is very messy! Hah! * Posted by: bakemom z6 Ohio (My Page) on Sat, Feb 21, 04 at 0:05 Beverly - You're HERE! I just hopped over to check out a lasagna thread and here you are. Will you be full of instruction at the swap? I'm just chucking stuff here and there and throwing in a bit of shredded paper work. I don't know what I'm doing but things seem to grow better. Help! I'm a winter sowing junkie and thinking this is right up my alley. * Posted by: Storygardener 5/6 central oh (My Page) on Sat, Feb 21, 04 at 7:24 Hi Bakemom!! Well, I have been composting for nearly two years. Most of what I know - came from this forum. I just keep reading all the time and learning! I have done one lasagna garden. It's a veggie garden that I 'layered up' year and a half ago. I have the book if you want to borrow it. ....Beverly * Posted by: PaulNS NS zone 6a (My Page) on Sat, Feb 21, 04 at 12:48 Karalyn, Queen of the Wackos, composting student spit :) A snowstorm drops 90 cm/3 feet of snow on your area and the compost pile is 30m/100 feet from the house so you toss your kitchen scraps on the snow outside the front door and tell yourself you're sheet composting. * Posted by: Karalyn Z6 W. Boise (My Page) on Sun, Feb 22, 04 at 11:21 Paul, I love it! Tossing your scraps out the door. I do that with banana peelings outside my front door where the rose bushes are and the clematis plants. I understand they like the potassium in them. But now that I've come to this forum, I snip them in itty bitty pieces into an ice cream pail while listening to Dr. Phil, Montel, or Oprah. I'm behind you guys in my composting and need to speed things up! ;-) BTW, there were a lot more pizza boxes but I know DS wouldn't be interested in helping me nor waiting. But now I know another goldmine, the SCHOOL! * Posted by: Nelz z5b/6 NW PA (My Page) on Mon, Feb 23, 04 at 1:05 I have so many (currently 9) coffee ground buckets out (grocery store cafe's, teacher break rooms, church kitchen, etc.) that I need a list to keep track of emptying them. Plus I put my phone number on the lids so someone calls me when it's near full. BTW, most places have appropriate sized buckets so pick-ups can be done at the same time, yet I still have full buckets to pick-up, and I am not taking up extra space under their counter. This spring I hope to get others to start taking those grounds (will replace phone number lids with blank ones) so I can quit the circuit pick-up, now that I have starbucks on the hook for quite a bit 1 or 2x a week. * Posted by: flora_uk SW UK 8/9 (My Page) on Wed, Feb 25, 04 at 8:57 YKYACWW .... you hear a wail from the living room. Your daughter has just puked up on the carpet. You eye it up. Not toooo sloppy. Grab a piece of cardboard, scoop and run down the garden to the pile. Mission accomplished, you come back and start to mop up daughter. Got to get your priorities right. * Posted by: Karalyn Z6 W. Boise (My Page) on Wed, Feb 25, 04 at 16:35 FLora-ROTFL! * Posted by: Karalyn Z6 W. Boise (My Page) on Sun, Mar 7, 04 at 11:26 I scored the other day! I was going to a school meeting for my 12 year old, went through the fancy new neighborhood and saw the grounds workers cutting down tree branches and all the grasses (ornamental) and they were put in piles on the lawn later to be picked up. I made a mental note to go back and ask about the grasses. I took a different route home, but made a quick left turn into the subdivision. I asked the first guy, they are from Mexico and don't speak much English, but enough to direct me to the boss. He said fine and I offered my club wagon to put the grass into. They said "No, they wouldn't fit." I have all my bench seats in it. (I loved how they talked amongst themselves in spanish to decide about taking them to where I live which is behind the new subdivision) They actually loaded all the cut grasses and raked up leaves and put them in their truck and took them to my house and unloaded them for me. I wasn't expecting such service. They said they would just dump them anyway. So, I scored big time in the goal of getting other people's mulch and having it delivered. Where is that thread anyway?! I told them they can dump more of their grasses. They weren't done with this big subdivision and they also mow the shared grassy area and little parks. So I told them feel free to dump the grass too! When the grass gets long enough to mow. Plus I got the main guy's card to have him do some pruning and other stuff for me. I think the crew was amazed that this blonde haired lady, driving a ford clubwagon was willing to load it up with all the tall grasses! Let alone talk to them, as some people in this manicured area probably wouldn't bother speaking to them. Okay, is the yellow ornamental grass considered a brown or green? * Posted by: sylviatexas z8 Tx (My Page) on Mon, Mar 8, 04 at 17:15 One day I was to meet friends for a drink after work. I got there early, &, being a naturally shy & bashful person, I sat at the bar & talked to the bartender about my enthusiasm for Starbucks coffee grounds, other people's leaves, etc. Gary was the first to arrive. Gary's a hoot. He's one of those people who's always sanitizing their hands & spritzing the kitchen counter with anti-bacterial stuff. He sat down next to me just as the bartender said, "I just finished making myself a pitcher of tea. Would you like the teabag?" & I said *yes*! Of course! Thank you very much! So she put it in a sandwich bag for me. Gary eyed it & shuddered. The bartender, seeing his reaction, looked at him speculatively & said, "We roasted some peanuts in the shells earlier today for happy hour. Would you like the shells?" So she & I scooped peanut shells into my sandwich baggie as Gary made faces & shuddered. * Posted by: antic_zone9 z9FL (My Page) on Mon, Mar 15, 04 at 20:13 You know you're a compost wacko (or a wannabe) when: ...you take morning walks on trashday, pretending to be exercising, when you're really scouting the free bags of leaves. ...you walk the same route again, this time with the dog, in order not to arouse suspicion because you want to snag a beautiful closet door that will make a perfect wormbin (because of it's louvers). :) ...you don't worry about working out in a gym because you get your upper body workout by forking and turning your garbagecan compost bin. :) ...your DW is actually proud of you because of your commitment to something worthwhile (although you know she wonders about your sanity sometimes!) ;) ...you're ticked off that you can't compost plastic, because it won't break down within your lifetime, but you are happy that you are composting 60% of your garbage! ...you read composting books in the restroom and wonder if the DW would EVER let you have a composting toilet in the next house. (even if it was YOU that maintained it!) ...you subconsciously thank all of those hard-working neighbors who painstakingly rake up all of their leaves so you can steal their bags the next morning! ;) ...(this has been said before, but what the heck!) You wonder if the next occupants of the house will take advantage of the fresh composted soil for gardening that the previous owner had spent years transforming from a sandtrap. ...you think about all the OGM that is wasted daily and sleep very well that night knowing that you are doing your small part to hug the earth. * Posted by: maryslc z5-6 (My Page) on Fri, Mar 26, 04 at 23:31

Thanks to you all for your answers. I see that Carol and I are in particular on the same wavelength: I like your account of your garden! Ingrid, we're all lucky that plants are determined to live and will grow and bloom in considerably less than perfect conditions. Jackie's example is just what I'm talking about. We have some very poor ground that is carpeted with wild creeping thyme: in spring when it blooms it's lovely. Locally I see beautiful plants growing in compacted gravel by the roadside and in rocky areas: a running perennial euphorbia, tall bearded irises, Globularia, Saponaria ocymoides. dchall, I've hesitated how to answer your thoughtful suggestions: I appreciate them, but they're not workable here, mainly because of the scale of our operations. Our garden is a few acres, and we have probably in the area of five hundred roses, and a couple hundred more shrubs, plus all the other trees and herbaceous plants. If you consider the cost of your suggested amendments, cost of transport, the labor of spreading them, in a terrain too steep for wheelbarrows--and we don't have a tractor--our willingness to wait for half-rotted hay to decompose may seem more reasonable. We can get five tons of old hay, carried here and the bales distributed through the garden, for about $260 (cost is essentially for transport, as the hay is valueless to everybody except us). It's up to us to spread it and dig it in later, of course. What you say about people thinking they have clay when they don't is interesting. Have I been fooling myself all these years? Our original soil, in its unimproved state, is moldable when wet and takes fingerprints. That may not be enough information to say what it is. I've never had a soil test performed, and it has crossed my mind that it might be worth the trouble, but inertia and a willingness to experiment have kept from me from doing so. What I have found, though, is that if I add enough organic matter to the soil I can grow a very satisfactory range of plants quite well, and so far that's been good enough for me. About cover crops, I agree with you. My roses grow in a meadow environment, in fact, with annual grass in the beds, and we sow clover in the grass paths (a genial idea of DH's some years ago). It was a great day for me when I realized that I didn't need to pull grass under the roses, just shear it, so that the roots would remain as organic matter that I didn't need to dig in. Once our roses and shrubs get to growing well, they don't need more amendment than the organic matter they themselves produce with perhaps an occasional scattering of old hay. P.S. Anna-Lyssa, I appreciate the compliment!