I think you are very brave (and probably very excited) to post your plan! I know you'll get some great ideas and suggestions. Everyone here will do their best to help you create the most functional kitchen we can come up with...that still works with your space :)

I kind of like that your pantry is closer to the kitchen/cooking area as opposed to the bar/seating area. Easy to dart in a grab an ingredient while you're prepping. But if you think you need more counter space on the back wall, that's definitely an option.

What did you have planned for the areas that is currently next to pantry? It could be a good beverage/coffee station, with an undercounted wine refrigerator, if you needed such a thing. And that would keep people from getting in your way trying to get to the refrigerator while you're prepping.

I'm sure you have plenty of room to cook for 2. Nice long runs of counter, etc.

Are those the ovens in the middle of the prep counter? If so, what happens to the food taken out of the fridge? Where would it go for prepping? Do you think the ovens would be sort of in the way?

Jillius, I completely agree about the downdraft, but couldn't Blue222q have an island hood? How do island hoods compare to wall hoods?

Thanks, your comments helped me generate this next draft. It's still not showing windows--they would only be on the back wall near the sink. I centered the cooktop on the right (interior) wall, where I think it can have a vented hood through the ceiling. I moved the oven(s) to the end of the back run and put an under-counter MW drawer near the cooktop. I use the MW every morning to make oatmeal; otherwise it's only used to reheat items. Maybe the island would be an even better location for the MW? I'm just not sure if I want the drawer type, because 1) it doesn't have any baking capability and 2) it's harder to view the food inside of it.

I'm not sure what we'll put on the pantry wall, maybe a beverage center.

That looks more user friendly. This gives you long runs of counter. You are lucky. Here are some more ideas for you to consider:

How about swapping the fridge and the ovens? That puts it closer to the deck (cold beverages, etc.) and the oven closer to the cooktop.

If all you do is heat/reheat in a MW, I would not use a drawer. That's a very expensive food heater.

I would call your island seating "cooking show style" :) Could you make the island more square and have seating on two sides at a corner? That way two or three people could converse while eating. Consider that you also have the dining table close by for sitting and conversing.

Unless you already have one, that pantry space would make an excellent powder room if the door was moved off the kitchen.

I also think switching the fridge and ovens in your most recent draft would be good too, but it really depends on how you cook and serve food. I can see that you sorta have the "ingredients" side of the kitchen with fridge and pantry close by, and the cook/clean up side in the corner. The oven is a bit of the odd ball out though. I personally would think you'd want the oven closer to the cooktop. I keep going back to the mantra someone else shared here, "ice-water-stone-fire" -- as in, food goes from the fridge, to the sink to wash, counter (stone) to prep, then cooktop or oven (fire) to cook.

Do a "walk through" of a typical meal for yourself. What is it like to make breakfast? Where do you get your bowl and glass from? Where do you make your oatmeal or pour your coffee? How about clean up? How about making a simple meal like spaghetti with noodles and possibly meatballs? Try to imagine yourself walking around getting the ingredients and tools needed to complete the task of cooking and serving, followed by clean up. That visualizing step really helped me refine my kitchen plan! For me, we don't do a ton of baking, so tucking it off to the side a little more out of the way was okay.

Swapping the refrigerator and ovens will create a barrier island. The island will be a barrier b/w the Prep Zone in the island and the refrigerator. You will use the refrigerator far more than you will use the ovens. I would not switch them.

The "fire" part of the "mantra" is the cooktop/range, not the oven.

What you could do is put both the ovens and the refrigerator on the same wall, but I'd have to see how much room you have.

I'm working on a layout right now....

I am assuming a 42" wide refrigerator.

What is the distance b/w the stairs and the far right wall?

Is that 15' on the upper wall the width of the counters from the left end to the beginning of the counters on the right wall? Or, is it 15' b/w the right wall and the end of the counter run on the top wall?

The distance b/w the stairs and the far right wall is about 24'. Our rug is 8' wide. We have flexibility with the island shape/size and the refrigerator. Most of our meals are plant-based and I don't use an oven very often, so I don't mind if it's a little out of the way. But the MW or speed oven needs to be convenient.

Here it is.

Note: I did not include the Pantry or the Snack/Beverage Center. I think they're fine as shown in your second layout.

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And, the Zone Map:

Analysis:

• Nice separation of the three primary work zones: Prep, Cooking, Cleanup

• Primary Prep Zone and Cooking Zone are adjacent.

• You have a secondary Prep Zone, if needed. It also doubles as extra workspace around the cooktop.

• Trash pullout is in the Prep Zone but close to the Cooking and Cleanup Zone. You generate far more trash & recyclables while prepping and cooking than cleaning up and for a longer period of time. You might consider building a compost receptacle into the island - assuming you compost.

• No zone-crossing. Everything you need for prepping and cooking is located on the cooktop/island aisle so there is no reason to cross into the Cleanup Zone.

• The Prep Zone is close to the pantry.

• The refrigerator and MW are located on the periphery so snackers can access them w/o getting in the way of those prepping.

• The MW is located near both the refrigerator (where most MW'd food comes from) and a water source (for adding water).

• The landing space for the refrigerator is the island where you want the food to be for prepping.

• The landing space for the ovens is either on the island or to the left of the ovens.

• There is plenty of space around the cooktop for landing space or even additional workspace.

• Above the oven is tray storage - things like cookie sheets, cooling racks, roasting pans, etc. (See picture at end for an example.)

• Small appliances can go in the corner susan. The nice thing about corner susans is that everything is always in front. Just rotate the shelf until what you want is in front and lift it out!

• The Cleanup Zone has 28.5"D counters - 3" deeper than standard. The base and upper cabinets are also 3" deeper; 27"D and 15"D, respectively.

• There is a 9" bumpout behind the sink - if you can do it.

• The window is 4 feet wide.

• There is plenty of room b/w the table and the island and the counters on "top". There is also plenty of room b/w the table and the stairs. The table I show is 39" wide, but even a 42" wide table will fit there easily.

• The island is 8'9" wide by 47" deep. This allows for plenty of space for a nice prep sink + plenty of workspace. It also allows for 4 seats. You need a minimum of a 15-inch overhang. With a curved overhang, it actually allows for the minimum 15-inch overhang on the ends as well as a deeper overhang in the middle. With less of a pronounced curve, you might have a shallower island. However, the nice thing about the curve, if you provide for the minimum overhang on the ends, is that the middle seats have a deeper overhang for someone who is taller (> 6') or has long legs.

• Dish Storage is in a 42"W Dish Hutch next to the DW for ease of putting dishes away AND is close to the table for setting the table. This location means someone setting the table will not get in the way of those prepping and cooking or even someone cleaning up.

• The Dish Hutch consists of a 42"W x 15"D upper that goes down to the counter - if you like the look. The deeper upper allows you to store 12" or wider dinner plates and platters. It could be 13" or 14" deep, but, personally, I like 15" deep uppers.

• If you don't like the look of a dish hutch, you can just have normal uppers - but I still recommend 15" deep uppers.

Dish Hutch example:

Note: I would probably put some short drawers or an open alcove (with walls on either side) on the bottom of the upper cabinet so you can open the doors when there is something on the counter in front of the upper.

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Tray storage example:

Buehl, I won't have time to digest this until later, but thanks so much! What software did you use?

Jennifer, I liked your advice about visualizing myself making different meals and will do this asap!

Just make sure you visualize yourself using the layouts above (yours and mine). Many people visualize themselves in their old, dysfunctional kitchen b/c that's all they know. Think about kitchen workflow:

• Pantry/Refrigerator --> Prep Zone (w/Prep Sink) for preparing the food

• Prep Zone --> Cooking Zone (w/Cooktop/Range, MW, and ovens) for applying heat to the just-prepped food

• Cooking Zone --> Serving dishes & table for serving the food

• Table/Island meals/snacks --> Cleanup Zone

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In a nutshell:

Ref/Pantry --> Prep Zone --> Cooking Zone --> Table --> Cleanup Zone

Something to keep in mind if the refrigerator is on the cleanup sink wall: Sometimes when prepping a meal someone else is either cleaning up & loading the DW or putting dishes away/unloading the DW. You don't want to be dodging an open DW door while trying to go from the refrigerator to the island Prep Zone (or even a secondary Prep Zone b/w the cleanup sink & cooktop on the perimeter).

If your aisle is 51" or greater, an open DW door probably would not be too big an issue, but your island would still be a barrier and you will still be running around it as you prep.

I'm going to comment on the microwave issue. I have a Thermador double convection oven with integral microwave. I didn't buy it, it was here already. I have a countertop microwave that I put in a cabinet. I don't use the oven microwave. It's not strong enough, 600 watts. The countertop unit is 1200 watts. That makes a big difference.

I would advise you to use a separate microwave. If something goes wrong, it's easier to replace than the oven unit. It doesn't matter if it's a countertop model, drawer model or built-in model. All of them will be superior to the integral oven model.

Even though it's just the two of you, I would suggest you consider a 36" range top rather than the 30". It's nice to have the extra burners. If budget becomes an issue, 30" would be fine. It's a want rather than a need. Love the cooktop against the wall.

Keep your walk-in pantry. They are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

The plan is coming together nicely.

Buhl, everyone, all your points are valid, but I have a little different perspective. In our current kitchen, we have to turn completely around from our fridge to set anything on a counter. I can tell you from experience that catching your feet on the floor and tripping while turning 180 degrees is a real possibility. As we get older, this is becoming a concern for me, especially with my wife who is..er..somewhat clumsy :) She's broken an ankle three times in her life from falls (twice while married to me), and we are reaching the age now where a fall will likely result in hips being broken. A little research on mobility studies confirmed that turning 180 degrees is the greatest cause of falls in the house not related to stairs (edit, bathrooms, too) and you are about six times more likely to break a hip in such a fall than any other type of fall.

Having said that, I now always recommend a fridge, sink, and cooktop be on the same run of counter if possible. That way prep is progressing sideways with very little turning around, and this is certainly possible in this kitchen.

I don't want to scare anyone but this should be something to consider.

My advice would be to at least consider moving the ovens to the ??? space next to the pantry so there is counter space next to the fridge.

I'm not discounting anything rmtdoug just shared. I think it's very important to consider safety in planning a home, especially if we plan to age in place there. My landing space is directly across from my fridge. I rarely take things out of the fridge by facing it and then twisting 180 degrees to place the item on the counter. I stand sideways and turn 90 degrees to take out of fridge and then 90 degrees the other way to place on the counter. I think it's easier and quicker and faster to do it that way. On the few occasions where I need to dig deeper and face the fridge to do so, I don't twist 180 degrees. I actually move my feet and turn my whole body around to place on counter. Just like there are certain ways to lift properly (the squat vs. the deep bend-over), there are ways to consciously move to make that action safer.

With all that said, I agree that it's better to have a landing space on either or both sides of the fridge if at all possible.

I agree about having a landing space at least on one side of the refrigerator. Otherwise I think beuhl's plan is excellent.

I agree, standing sideways works if the counter is close enough and the items light enough to handle with one hand, but increase the weight or bulk and/or distance and then turning is required. The 180 turn you describe is the problem. It's the side of your foot that catches during 180 degree turns. There is no other way to turn 180 degrees. Trying to twist 180 degrees without moving your feet is even harder and you will almost certainly lose your balance.

There are other concerns involved as well. Turning back from the prep area to the cooktop then becomes necessary and therefore doubles the risk. There is also the risk of spillage while crossing floor space from fridge to sink to cooktop. Slipping on spilled liquid is equally bad. I've slipped but not fallen on as little as one drop on the floor of our kitchen.

I'm just one voice here, but I always approach my layout comments on GW with the above premise first in mind. I don't comment on many layouts because there is no way to minimize this risk and I'm certainly no expert on design, but this layout will accommodate a safer design. I just don't know if that sort of layout is desired by the OP. I just hope my comments prove useful in some way.

Oh, I totally agree with your points. While I'm old, maybe I'm just not quite old enough to catch my foot when turning. Good point. And I agree that prep sink/area should always be on the same counter run as the cooktop. Unfortunately, there are a few times when it's not possible. But the goal should be to always keep your suggestions in mind and plan that way if at all possible. Your comments are very useful!

You're lucky funky. I'm a klutz like rmtdoug's wife. thankfully, I haven't broken any bones (knock wood) but I've fallen on average 1-2x a year. My ex used to say I trip over air. My knee right now is still healing from a fall on the carpet in the hallway of our building from 2 weeks ago. My Mother before she got Parkinson's was also a klutz. Guess it runs in the family.

Oh, I'm definitely a klutz. Even as a kid, the other kids called me Clumsy. It was practically my nickname. But I have a huge fear of pain so I think I've learned to be quite careful to avoid injuries. Basically, I'm a big weenie. I often pause and think about the best way to do things to avoid hurting myself.

One thing I learned long ago is to pick my feet UP when I walk and move. Most tripping is done when people shuffle and don't really pick up their feet well when walking. And, hey, it also keeps your shoes nicer. I have shoes a decade or more old that show little wear on the soles. Even on the tops, really. I don't understand how people scuff up their shoes so much.

And it's all because I got tired of tripping as a kid so I found another way. I do have a chiropractor due to a back injury (healed now but need occasional adjustments). I wasn't using good lifting technique when I hurt it. I do now, that's for sure. Anyway, he has mentioned that he treats a lot of injuries due to improper walking and that lifting the foot higher off the ground is really important and something he will teach patients that have issues with frequent falls.

Just something to consider. I'm not an expert.

But, now you risk tripping over an open DW door and bumping your hip on the island as you maneuver around the barrier - which can be just as bad, if not worse.

Rmtdoug - your points make some sense when there is only one sink and the Prep Zone is shared with the Cleanup Zone/cleanup sink (also more of an issue, IMHO, as you get older - I'm speaking from experience as I age.)

In this case, the Prep Zone is on the island, not on the perimeter. You may have a one-walled kitchen, but this is not it - and I would not want a one-wall Kitchen, myself, b/c then everything is crammed together. I find that as I age having separate zones is more and more important. I don't have to maneuver around dirty dishes - both in and out of the sink- and I have a space that I can put all the tools I need for the Zone w/o mixing them all up together. I find I need more "organization" as I age and from what I've seen of my contemporaries, I'm not alone - most are the same way.

I have a refrigerator across from the end of the peninsula with landing space both on the side and on the peninsula - I never, and I mean never, use the landing space on the side. Having a french-door refrigerator may be part of the reason, but the bigger reason is that I prep on the peninsula and I don't have to place things on the side landing space and then pick them up and carry them to the peninsula. Why make two trips (or more if I'm taking a lot of things out of the refrigerato) when you can do it in one? I also don't have to maneuver around the door to reach the side landing space on the side.

I also do not face the refrigerator, I also stand almost 90 degrees - and I've not had any injuries to force me to do it - it's natural. If you know you're using the landing space behind the refrigerator, I think you naturally stand facing both (i.e., 90 degrees).

What you want to avoid is a wide aisle (>48") b/c then I can see where someone might stumble if they are taking several steps from the refrigerator to the counter with their arms full of items.

Tripping over an open DW door is much more of an issue, I think, then using the island for refrigerator landing space.

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Oh, and I'm a klutz as well - I'm the least coordinated in my family!

If blue222q is worried about using the island as landing space, then the ovens can go on the end of the sink wall run. It will limit dish storage, but if it's only the two of them then perhaps they don't need much. It will also mean that the landing space for the ovens will either be on the island (there's that 180 degrees issue though - and this time with hot and usually somewhat heavy pans) -or- on the side but in competition for space with the Cleanup Zone.

Note that the layout provides two different Prep Zones - depending on which one Blue222q feels like using on any given day. The refrigerator works better where it is for both Prep Zones.

I don't have the document I used to create the layout here at work, so I cannot easily draw it up with the oven on the end of the cleanup sink run.

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Blue222q - I usually use Microsoft's PowerPoint to draw up layouts. I haven't had time to learn Chief Architect well enough to easily draw up layouts.

Good points, Buehl. Safety and efficiency are both important and each kitchen is going to be a bit different. Lots to consider to have the best of both.

Buehl, excellent points and design, as you always do. But you perhaps miss my fundamental point...or I'm being dense (more likely). I would not want a single wall kitchen either. An L works very well for what I am saying, requiring one 90 degree turn, which is quite safe when moving on your feet. A U shape requires two 90 degree turns, and yet the progression of food from fridge to sink to cooktop always flows in a linear, sideways manner. That's what I am trying to say. When preparing food, why pick it up and move it back and forth across aisles? Seems a waste of time and energy.

Do many people really injure themselves tripping over DW doors to the point of needing medical care? I would think a bruised shin would be more likely. I bet few people would make that mistake again. But the nature of slipping on liquid or tripping and falling while moving is totally unexpected and cannot be anticipated like you can with running into an open dishwasher door. The only way to minimize random falls is to reduce the movements and conditions that cause greatest risk for them (but there will always be 180's in a kitchen somewhere).

Therefore, I see fridge > sink > cooktop on that outside L in either direction. No 180 pivots or crossing aisles for primary prep. The island could serve as multipurpose secondary prep, storage, cleanup, seating, etc ('could' serve, but not required :) I don't know if this would work for Blue222q, but that's what I see.

Blue222q did not mention if this was new construction or not, but hopefully they will follow Jennifer's advice above and do some walk-throughs and get back to us.

I'm not a klutz but I probably think more about not falling when I'm moving than most. This comes from years of working in very dangerous professions. My wife says I move too slowly in the kitchen, and yet she is the one who cuts her finger with a knife, slips, trips, burns herself, drops things, and generally creates a mess.

Such interesting comments! I guess there's no one "ideal" L-shaped kitchen with island. I've never prepped on an island, just cooked on one, so I know about the hazards of moving food back and forth, dripping on the floor, and not being able to view my cookpots when I'm busy at the sink (I've had many a boil-over!). Safety is a top consideration. I'm still digesting all of this and will get additional feedback from a kitchen designer later this week.

I looked at ovens and MWs this morning and am still undecided about what to get. Homechef59, thanks for your comments on MWs and cooktops, and I'll not give up that pantry! (I've never had a walk-in.)

I couldn't get past that 4x7 pantry. Swoon...

Layout #2:

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Layout #2 Zone Map:

Here's basically what I am seeing. I think 2 people could work together in this space, and it's compact for one person:

The layout could be flipped but I thought with that screened area and sliders to the deck I wanted to leave the option of more windows on that wall.

The aisles are generous, 4' on the cooktop, 5' on the fridge.

That's a 42" fridge. This layout almost requires a single door fridge to work best, however.

Trash pullout? That's tough. I think a narrow cab immediately to the left of the fridge. That's the only place it would not be completely in the way while pulled out.

The only 180 pivot is the fridge to secondary prep. With the dishwasher open, you are standing sideways across the aisle to unload.

I personally would think stepping backwards to get around the French door of a fridge to an adjacent landing space would be more dangerous than pivoting to reach a landing space behind you. I have never slipped while pivoting, even on ice or a wet floor, but I have literally caught air stepping backwards and tripping over a dog. In my experience people hurt their backs and knees pivoting wrong, but they slip and trip during linear motion.

Fishcow, I agree. I mentioned that a single door fridge would work best. This is the primary reason I will always have a single door fridge in our kitchen. However, stepping sideways is far safer than pivoting 180. There is a white paper somewhere that I probably should dig up if I can remember where I read it. It explains the problem with your center of gravity shifting when turning around. It's amazing how little off balance you have to be before you go over. I think it was 3 or 5 degrees when the brain starts screaming "falling."

Funny you mention tripping over dogs. I now work in back-office healthcare and I see these kind of data all day long. A lot of people hurt themselves tripping over their pets in their homes, far more than tripping while walking around the kitchen. Someone above mentioned that two counters being closer helps, which is true. Laboratory motion studies measure the risk of falling while pivoting when moving in free space, not with counters nearby, but it is still the most dangerous motion one can make on your feet. That is why they study it. I have to do such a maneuver in our kitchen every time I access the refrigerator as the prep landing zone is about 6 feet away. I have caught the edge of my foot numerous times over the years. Luckily, no falls yet with either of us.

Doug, do any of the studies delve into the person's speed of motion and their mindset? By mindset, I mean how thoughtful they are about what they're doing. I tend to move a bit more slowly than most people and very deliberately.

For example, to get it back to kitchens, if I need to carry a big, hot pot of stew somewhere, I'll look around and see if there are any obstacles along my path or where I need to set down that pot. If any people are nearby, I'll warn them about what I'm doing before I lift and move. I do that with virtually everything whether it's yard work, bicycling, whatever.

My DH on the other hand, would grab that pot and go without doing any scoping things out first. Just like his mom. In fact, during large family gatherings, I have seen her pick up things that are hot and too heavy for her, with kids and dogs underfoot, and then yell at everybody to move, after she's already started moving, and then yelling for people to move things so she can put it down. And they're both always in a rush to get things done while I take my time. To me, that's crazy and asking for injury. And they have both been injured far more than I have which doesn't surprise me a bit.

Of course, I've probably jinxed myself and I'll probably break my leg before bed-time....let me pause typing to go knock on wood. Done!

So just curious if studies show any such correlation leading to causation.

I'm in healthcare as well and most of the data I've seem related to fall risk is related to tripping hazards and balance issues while walking (or getting out of bed, but that's if someone is debilitated or heavily medicated)

I'm also not understanding why crossing a relatively narrow (non-traffic) aisle is worse than carrying stuff a longer distance along a continuous stretch of counter.

Funky - I've recently seen studies assessing fall risk in stroke survivors or with systemic illnesses like Parkinson. In these cases, the primary method of testing is some manner of 180 degree turn. Other fall studies of which I am more familiar focus on workplace safety. Falls from heights and tripping are the major focus there. Restaurant kitchen falls are pretty much all slipping on wet floors. I have no knowledge of any general population studies on falling in home kitchens, but we know that steps and bathrooms are the primary places for falls in homes. As for your family, well, I think it stands to reason that people in a hurry or distracted are more prone to accidents. We can all relate to that. My wife would be closest I know to your MIL.

Fishcow - I think carrying stuff back and forth across an aisle is highly inefficient. Add all those extra steps and turns over 30 years and it gets scary. The concern here should not be with things like a cup of flour, loaf of bread, or cube of butter but with heavier things like full pans and mixing bowls and larger containers of liquids, things that would need two hands to pick up. Would it not be easier and safer to slide it a couple of feet down a counter than to pick it up, turn around, and put it somewhere else? If you do trip or slip moving sideways along a counter, you have the counter right in front of you to steady yourself.

I apologize to blue222q for even bringing this up. I've derailed her thread. Please put it back on track. Blue needs a new Kitchen!