A contract should be made up of an agreement, conditions, drawings and specifications (as well as any addenda or accepted alternates). The first two can be combined together and the last two can be combined together but two categories of information should not be combined because one is legal in nature and the other is technical in nature. One for the builder and the other is for the workers.

The agreement states the name of the parties, the type and amount of compensation and payments, etc. The (General) Conditions should state what the responsibilities of the parties are, insurance requirements, corrections to the work, warranties, and termination procedures.

The design drawings and specifications should only be referenced by the agreement and general conditions.

I ended up drafting a one-page agreement that just specified the scope of work, listed what we'd provide, detailed the payment terms, and had some non-controversial stuff like they'd work for timely completion, comply with building code and manufacturer's installation requirements, and be licensed and insured. Hit a snag on that last one. They are not licensed and religion prohibits insurance. He also asked about the inspections that I referenced ("This is going to be an inspected job?") and seemed unfamiliar with the requirements, which I filled him in on. Those are typically red flags on a contractor, but these are Amish. Hmm. I had him cross off and initial the line about license & insurance, but would appreciate anyone's feedback on this.

On the plus side, the two guys who stopped by last night spent a good hour and a half taking very detailed measurements, elevations with a laser, and talked through all the details of the tie-in, noting things like siding on one side being 2" lower than on the other side. We conferred on a few things, and I developed a very high confidence level that this will be a carefully executed addition, not a slapped-together-close-enough deal.

They'll start work daily at 7:30, so I'll confer with them before I go to work on any questions or issues. We start a week from Monday!

Oh, and one more tidbit: I asked them if they wanted/needed access to the inside of the house, either for construction purposes or for the bathroom. They looked around the yard, noted the forested ravine at the rear of the property, and said "no, we'll be ok." LOL, we'll give them the combination to the front door lock.

"...or general work relationship/communication would be appreciated as well..."

At the risk of sounding ignorant I'll add a side note. I worked up in Masset, B.C. and the workers doing the renovation where Mignonette or Amish or something like that. Beards and Hats. Sorry - out of the loop.... Anyway the crew took offence to the lady (my client) wearing any clothes that showed off her legs, arms or worse - CLEAVAGE.

My client told me that this was a problem for her in the Summer when it was so hot. Wearing long pants, long sleeve shirts and the like. Also getting a hold of them was hard since the entire community shared one phone.... Not sure if that helps you.

I worked with these guys for a day and found them keen, hard working and very pleasant. I watched my language (potty mouth) and that was all....

Spit and A handshake VS the new world.... This is peaking my interests....Religion and insurance exclusions. Oh man ......carry on!!

When hiring illegal workers I don't think a contract makes much difference. I would take the above advice and get yourself the necessary insurance. You might want to hire a licensed GC to keep an eye on the job, if you can find one willing to do so.

I have lived in Amish country (near Lancaster County PA) for 20 years. I had Amish working on my house when it was built, including some sub crews Amish owned and led. I've hired Amish to do custom work (custom quilts, custom American Chestnut bar top for a kitchen peninsula).

I shop in the same English shops they do, around here.

I also am a customer at several Amish shops serving Amish families (not tourists, that is).

My experience is that there will not be a defensive dynamic unless the English (English is what Amish call non-Amish people) person creates it with distrust or disrespectful behavior or attitude. The Amish are very straightforward people, as long as you have a clear understanding with them. Don't expect them to "imagine" what you want as far as fine details of a project or how it's "usually" done.

In general, the Amish believe in a solid work ethic and fair dealings. They are intelligent people and quite good business people. They will quote you a fair price and expect you to evaluate it and decide or discuss it, but they generally are not engaged in haggling. Haggling to them suggests manipulation, which is disrespectful and dishonest in their world view. So discussion, yes. Haggling, no.

They seem to appreciate communicating with a client at a similar level. While I am always calm and respectful, I meet the lead man at an even level, not bossing or demanding, but not deferential either - simply straightforward. They are pretty much just straight shooters and ANY sort of mind game doesn't compute with them; they just prefer to have a clear understanding of the work, and to get it done. I also found that they do very well if any conversation concerns or details are put into a BRIEF written form or drawing, so they can LOOK at what they are trying to do for you - think one sentence bullet points with numbers, drawings, etc. but NOT paragraphs of description.

Treat these documents as a TOOL for the crew to work from, not a SUGGESTION that they are incompetent, if that makes sense. They very much appreciate a clear tool. Like anyone else, they very much DO NOT appreciate the inference that they are incompetent!

As a woman (customer), they feel most comfortable if you dress and act respectfully, but they do not expect you to be Amish. For example, I would wear shorts above knee and a cap sleeved T shirt around a work crew instead of hot pants and a tank showing cleavage or side boob. That sort of common sense. They do not expect you to be hostess, or micromanage a project site. They do know you will have input, and details. The Amish are not a macho or dominating type of paternal society; they are mostly based on RESPECT for all, and TRADITION, and RESPECT for TRADITION. So the men treat women with respect, and expect the women to treat their traditions with respect, such as men are generally family leaders and decision makers. This is often difficult for modern English to grasp, because it is generally a dynamic of RESPECT, not CONTROL.

Definitely work with the crew lead and do not behave in any way THEY would deem inappropriate, so overly friendly to workers. Keep it a business like interaction, but friendly, respectful, and to the point. If you DO need to work with someone other than the crew lead - for example, if the lead man is offsite - and you want a task done a certain way, then ask who to talk to who is under the lead, and treat them the same as you would the lead and give a written BRIEF summary at the end of the conversation that the person can then transfer to the lead when they return, and then TRUST that they WILL convey the information and note.

Important here is that Amish are very lean with words, so if there are important details in a CONVERSATION that will be transferred, assume it will be VERY summarized, so put the important details in the written piece that the lead will be given by his second man.

They appreciate a greeting and acknowledgement or possibly cool glass of water, but really prefer after that to be left to do their work. They are not generally defensive ever, but they are human, so if you need something done a different way or are unhappy with what is happening, find a way to communicate this matter-of-factly, with drawings or specifics, and ask their input.

Some of their junior crew members may be Amish, but in their Rumspringa phase, where they are allowed to be "worldly" and decide if they are going to join the Amish church. So you may have "Amish" young men onsite who drive, smoke, dress, or act like English. But do not be thinking they are English, and the lead man, if he is Amish, will set the tone for how you treat EVERY crew person. If the lead man is Amish, assume any crew who is Amish or Amish in Rumspringa will eventually hold to the Amish principles.

For example, a youth Amish in Rumspringa could possibly be much more open and friendly with an English woman. However, as the client, if the crew lead is Amish, assume every crew member who is Amish should be treated AS Amish. (Implicit here is that Amish consider it inappropriate to fraternize too closely with English, except in a business relationship, so any sort of interaction heading toward coquettish or flirting behavior between an Amish and English would be taboo.) Amish crews can have English employees, but, again, go with how the lead person sets the tone. Just lots of clear communication, common sense, respect, and to-the-point interaction.

Were you in Florida, you could have him do all the work, not pay him, and you would be uncollectible. An unlicensed person's "contract" is unenforceable.

You may have a sore tooth and I may prescribe herbal tea that works great, but that doesn't make me a dentist. You may ignore my bill.

speektodeek: Thanks for that very detailed description of how they work. That's the kind of insight/help I was hoping for. So far, my experience dealing with them has left positive impressions. I was pleasantly surprised my gender doesn't seem to matter one whit in their attitude towards me. On the first visit, he needed to get up on the roof, and I went down in the basement and hauled up a stepladder. There wasn't even any of the "here, let me get that" that is typical of "English" men. He just let me bring it to him. In all their measuring and planning, they have turned to me for answers and approvals, and haven't ever indicated they need/want to talk to Mr. Weedy.

I did give them drawings and photos and bullet points, so I'm glad that's what they like to work from. We did go back and forth on roofing options and their associated prices, but I evaluated the price (see other thread) and it seems reasonable, so I accepted it without haggling. I've never received a handwritten quote via snail mail before. :-) I actually prefer to do business in a "let's cooperate and solve the problems" way instead of a legalistic, finger-pointing way, so I think we'll get along just fine.

I will make sure to keep my communications to the lead guy. Thanks for that guidance. I'm not a flesh-baring dresser, so no issues there.

On the insurance front, I called my agent and asked about hiring the uninsured Amish. She said they are self-insured, so I don't need anything on my policy. Basically, if someone gets hurt (or causes damage, I suppose), the community pitches in and comes up with the funds to pay for it. It's not our typical (legalistic) insurance, but it accomplishes the same end result and is sufficient for my insurance company's peace of mind. I don't see that as "avoid[ing] normal business responsibility," I see that as accomplishing it in a different manner.

On the licensing, here's my opinion: holding a license can be a signal that someone is competent. Not holding a license can be a signal that someone is incompetent. There can be false positives (incompetent licensed people) and false negatives (competent unlicensed people). If one is unlicensed, generally speaking, I'd want to find out why they aren't and evaluate that reason. In this case, their reason is religious, and watching them plan this job (and execute one we watched across the street), I have zero doubts about their competence.

BTW, I did call the city inspector and he said neither they nor the state require licenses for the work except for the electrical. But homeowners can do their own electrical without a license. So we're not breaking the law. They do require inspections, and I've pulled the permit and know the 5 required inspections, so we'll make sure we're kosher that way. And of course I'll post progress photos here so you guys can give me feedback on the work.

A couple of fine points of clarification.

When I say "haggling," I mean the attempt to drive down a price with nothing else changing. Haggling carries with it an undertone of win/lose (one party gets a lower price while the other party merely concedes) and this is against Amish principles, as they are more a cooperative based society than control based society. They are quite open to discussing options, costs, and making adjustments when they are able without significant work flow problems, etc.

It is often rewarding to ask them their thoughts, as it's not natural for them to put them forward. So while you may ask for something done a certain way, they may actually have other options, but if you don't ask them if they have any other ideas about an approach, they may just do what you asked, and you might miss some other options. Again, in their culture, which is modest-based, it is considered untoward to draw attention to themself, which includes putting forth ideas that have not specifically been solicited. By asking for their thoughts, it is then appropriate for them to share their ideas and earned wisdom or experience about the approach to a project.

When I emphasized dealing with the lead, it is more because if you approach someone less than lead on site, they will feel obligated to interact with you, but at the same time feel awkward because they know this is an item that should have been taken to the lead person. It puts them in a situation where they might feel it is disrespectful to their lead. I did not mention this because the lead "enforces" such a strict hierarchy. (Again, it is a respect based value system, not a control based value system.) More that you will put the lesser ranked person in a position they would not wish to be put into, as in their mind it's inappropriate for them to field the question if the lead is present, yet they feel the polite thing to do is to listen to you.

Hmmm, maybe Indiana Amish are different. My guy has plenty of opinions and doesn't mind sharing them with you before you ask. In fact, he will almost bully you into doing things his way, which, fortunately so far, has turned out to be the right way. He also won't turn down a cup of coffee or an offer of breakfast. He is self-insured. I don't know about inspections because we live outside the city limits. I do know that he will not take on anything he is not certain he knows how to do. But if he doesn't know it, one of his brothers, uncles, cousins, friends does ... except for electrical. He requires that a licensed electrician perform that type of work. He is a shrewd businessman who works all of his contacts to get the best value for his materials and keeps careful records regarding hours worked -- which includes travel time to and from the site. We do not have a contract. We trust him. He trusts us. So much so that (after asking first) he started bringing his intellectually challenged adult son with him when he works on Saturdays. My husband takes the young man fishing.

In many ways, it is just like working with any other contractor -- except he shows up on time and is an absolute stickler for quality work. In other ways he reminds me a lot of my dad and his friends. Dad was an electrician. His buddies were plumbers, carpenters and painters. Until we moved a few hours away, I'd never interviewed a tradesman, asked for references, took bids. If I needed work done I'd call my father, who'd call a friend or two. I'd cook and brew the coffee. They did the work. Our only contracts were handshakes. It's warm and personal and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Summerfield had Amish people build her house. It's beautiful and she was very happy with the outcome :)

Side note....should anyone wear hot pants to a construction site? That just sounds like too much of a tetanus hazard!

It was phoggie who had one of summerfield's designs built for her. Did Summerfield also have a relationship with Amish builders? I know that Phoggie was *very* happy with (and grateful for) her experience. She was on the small homes forum.

Kirkhall- Sorry, you're right. I was headed out the door to garden (LOL) Summerfield designed Phoggie's home :)

I'm in Pa and was looking for Amish builders . Did you ever get any recommendations.

Any luck? We are also looking for builders, potentially Amish.

We were looking for Amish to dismantle some out buildings/pole barns in Ohio, about an hour north of Amish country. The barns need to be relocated /reconstructed to another part of the property. All our local contractors that are non amish are not desirable crews... felons/child molesters...I have a daycare/preschool close by on site & literally have found every crew to be unsuitable to be around children, as we did hire 1 group with just felons & one was caught smoking meth in his car withinthe week, so Id rather not risk "giving someone a chance" again, and amish seem to be safer when it comes to finding workers that are going to behave appropriately. Fyi...you cant insure felons so if a contractor says they are fully insured, make sure hes not "subcontracting" the guy with no license on parole....

Please inbox me any means of contacting them ( in the past, English drivers usually are the best method of liaison, but its been so many years Im unfamiliar with anyone driving ). My email is jtwarner7997@gmail.com. my project needs to be started by April 2021 completed by 2022...thanks in advance

Jen:

One of my best employees was a felon. Joyriding in an expensive car as a kid should't ruin one's life. If one of my customers had any objection to Paul on his job, I'd refund their money immediately and walk. I've got plenty of customers; guys like Paul are rare. My insurance man can kiss my a$$ too.

Weedyacres- how did your house turn out (Amish builder)?

The addition went great! Here's the construction thread so you can see for yourself.