read this link on planting

https://sites.google.com/site/tnarboretum/Home/planting-a-tree-or-shrub

1. .. NO TILLING ... waste of time .. i have no aversion to RU ... and i would do it ASAP.. while you are waiting for the plants ... so you can walk on it.. at planting time ..

2 & 3 .... mulch is mulch ... as long as its not compost .. some peeps seem to confuse the two ... i apply it at 3 to 5 inches.. so it settles to the requisite 2 to 4 ... i go a bit thick.. so its more years.. before i need to reapply .. cheap is better.. and free is best ...

4. read the link about native soil.. and bad clay.. perk your soil if you dont know its draining capacity .. not all clay is bad ...

5 see above re ... NO TILLING...

if i knew where you were.. i could tell you were to keep them ... i would protect from frost.. and harden them off properly.. in case they are coming from a greenhouse.. to a colder zone ... meaning in the garage for a few days.. then full shade for a few days .. and protect from frost/freeze

this is probably the most talked about plant on the forums.. try the search function for a general overview ... this was a good place for the planting instructions...

i got mine from BS 14 years ago ... rooted 4 inchers .. they are over 20 feet now...

ken

Hi Ken – Thanks for the link and responses.

With regard to the tilling it was recommended by both The
Botany Shop in their instructions here: http://www.botanyshop.com/INSTRUCTIONS.HTM and also inThis article from Greenwood
nursery: https://www.greenwoodnursery.com/blog/post.cfm/tips-for-growing-thuja-green-giants

This paragraph specifically from Greenwood Nursery sold me on
the tilling as I am pretty sure the soil, where I will be planting them, is
very compacted:

[q] Green Giants, as
my drive way example describes, will grow in the poorest of soil. However,
compacted soil seems to stunt their growth considerably. If you have compacted
soil, till the area mixing in bags of aged compost or aged manure mix and
coarse sand. Till the area going down as deep as possible (at least 12 inches
deep). This will work to help with drainage and instantly put nutrients back
into the soil. Then, plant the green giants. Giving them the best possible
start for growing is always the best encouragement.[/q]

Now, if I can skip the step of renting a tiller for the day
that would be great, obviously saving me money, time and effort. But I’m still a bit torn. Part of me thinks it makes sense to loosen up
and remix all the soil to allow the young roots to expand much easier, but
another part is saying hey this is a tree and tree roots have been carving
their way thru all types of soil for millions of years on their own. Also, I’m now thinking I can probably just chop
up the area around each hole a bit with my shovel, to break it up, or basically
just dig a wider area so the roots will have an easy initial push if you know
what I mean. These are only 18” – 24”
trees, so it’s not like we are talking huge holes here. Maybe that’s what I’ll
do, instead of tilling the entire area. But
then again, that means I now have to RU the entire area. Ahhh…I guess that’s
still cheaper and easier than tilling.

I started reading the article you linked, and have to ask,
do these quart sized GG’s come all “rootbound” and require a lot of root
manipulation? Any tips on that?

Thanks,

Kevin

Amending of beds and holes for long-lived woody plants is obsolete practice still widely recommended by nurseries. Circling and other deformity of container grown nursery specimens in particular is pandemic and can be expected.

Embothrium, so you are saying my trees are doomed to being deformed because I bought them from The Botany Shop, no matter what I do? Or are you saying that will be the case if I try to amend the soil by tilling/fertilizing? One of the reasons I bought from them is because they were recommended on this site (From older posts I read). No idea what circling is by the way.

Roots following the walls of the pots. Pull the roots open at planting, you are very unlikely to be supplied with potted material that will not need this treatment wherever you get it from.

Any tips on pulling the roots apart, or just simply untangle them as best I can and plant with the roots spread out as much as possible?

Also, do I need to first kill all the grass and weeds in the area, or just cover it up with mulch?

One other issue... we have a dog. If he urinates on the trees will this be a big problem? Should I fence the area off?

Found my answers about the rootball in the link Ken provided. Hopefully they aren't too entangled and I can easily "tease" the roots apart. Time will tell.

Decided I will spray the area with roundup, and not till. Will basically follow the directions from that link.

Next up to figure out what to do about my dog. :)

I have a tiller and I use it all the time. It sure makes planting and backfilling much faster and easier. I also use it to loosen the soil so I can use a shovel to change the grade and till in aged woodchips and glysophate killed weeds.
If you're supposed to make a hole twice as big as the rootball to loosen the soil around the planting hole, how can tilling not be good? It loosens the soil big
time.

Mike

Tilling grinds the soil and everything in it. It also mixes upper layers of soil together, where there is a shallow A horizon (as is often the case in conifer forests) this is degraded when a tiller that reaches into the next layer beneath is run through it. For the same reason the old double digging with a spade was a bad idea - you want to hang onto the natural A horizon with its high organic content, not mix it with mineral soil from beneath it.

Often in horticulture the farther you depart from natural models the less productive or satisfactory the outcome.

I see your point, bboy, but I till as deep as the tiller can go and I use a pick to break through a the A horizon both down and to the side of the hole. Leveraging cracks out away from the planting hole makes for a good transplant environment. Plus a generous about of mulch after planting. Very few people do that when planting, especially pros on the job. I always did when I felt it was required.
Mike

Ok, wow, I got home today and no trees. Check my email and there is a FedEx email about a delivery exception and it says shipper requested shipment to be returned. Why would they do this? Isn't 6 days in a box with no water going to be very detrimental for those trees?

For the record, when I first found out they shipped them a week early, I immediately called, spoke to a young woman who said I'd have to speak to Michelle and I left her my name, order number and phone number after advising they shipped a week early. Never received a phone call back.

When I ordered the trees Michelle thought she was out of them, but then called and said she could fulfill the order after all but some will be a little small. I said ok and they still charged the full price.

So I am thinking this is likely the last of the trees of this size that they had. And now they are being shipped Back to them which will probably get them them on Monday or Tuesday and the date they were supposed to ship them was MONDAY. How does this make any sense! And again, won't 6 days in a box on a FedeX truck be bad for them?

here are my botany shop plants ... ken

march of 2005 ... from 4 inchers in 2002 ... i used the irrigation tape for the first two years... as they were 450 feet from the house .... killed the grass ... and i use the term loosely.. lol ... with round up ... and dug coffee cup holes for the peat pots they came in ... in my glacial sand .... there was no issue of root circling ...

i am glad you finally read the link i gave .. i was coming down here.. to skewer you for asking repeated questions.. of which were answered in the link ...

BTW .. it would be ridiculous to rent a tiller for 20 plants... you are making sound like you have 20 thousand ...

sharpen your shovel ... trust me.. it makes digging thru grass and roots much easier ....

I till as deep as the tiller can go and I use a pick to break through a the A horizon

The A horizon is the topsoil layer, where there is a blend of mineral and organic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_horizon#A_horizon

The original reason to rent a tiller is because the planting area is about 700 sq feet, and the Botany Shop recommended tilling the entire area in a 5ft swath. (I'm spacing them 7 feet apart). Tilling that with a shovel? If I don't need to till that's something different. Not sure how I was acting like I am planting 20k trees?

Been on countless forums for 20+ years and wow, people here are kinda arrogant and cocky, even compared to car forums, lol. But whatever, thanks for the help and congrats on your trees. They look good. Nice job.

I'm siding with mike on this one. Planting hole amendment is a bad idea. Tilling existing soil could be beneficial in some cases...especially and usually only for new plantings, when it comes to permanent landscape plants. For one thing in some cases the top 6" of soil is pretty consistently something: clumped up clay in a lot of cases. The tiller isn't going to cause some catastrophic tearing or improper sorting of the soil because there's nothing to tear and nothing to sort. It's not like tillers dig down 24" or something. 6" is probably the max. If nothing else it makes digging the hole easier. There are times I've resorted to using a front end loader or a huge bulb planting auger, just to dig into an area of over-compacted soil. You do need to be careful that the tilling doesn't change the overall soil profile in a way that could cause your plantings to end up in a bowl or depression.

As for amendment of entire areas like beds being bad - again in a lot of cases it can be if done incorrectly - but athletic field managers wouldn't add thousands of dollars of turface etc. if it wasn't appropriate to that kind of intensive horticultural/agriculture. (growing grass to survive prolonged sport activity)

"Been on countless forums for 20+ years and wow, people here are kinda
arrogant and cocky, even compared to car forums, lol. But whatever,"

LOL at this.

You make a good point david and its the classic argument about let nature do its course... but in reality, in our modern world, it's like saying we never need to see a doctor just because we have been around a long time. I hike in a local park and see countless deformed and generally failed trees in an undisturbed "forest" on a regular basis. Nature is not always the best answer.

"I hike in a local park and see countless deformed and generally failed trees in an undisturbed "forest" on a regular basis."
You raise a good point here. As I'm always pointing out the landscape in the surburban northeast has been highly disturbed anyhow, and there just no logic to thinking we can turn anywhere within 50 miles of the I-95 corridor back into pristine whatever is was before the white man arrived. Forest clearings in that area are not natural, period, and are always going to cause problems. I would guess this forest you walked in was once cleared land - most of Long Island was, and is therefore a secondary succession forest. Those are the early colonizers dying out. I see the same thing on old farm land near my house that was cleared until the 40s or so. The quick colonizing species like maple are being replaced by beeches mainly, some oaks.

Yeah I hear you David.

Update on the trees: I just spoke to Michelle and she will be shipping me fresh ones on the scheduled date which is this Monday 5/18, so all is well. I'll report back after I get them.

For now my plan is to plant per the instructions in the link Ken provided. I will first spray the whole area with roundup which I will do tomorrow. And about 5 days later I will plant the trees. (that's enough time, right?) Then mulch the area with 3" of standard brown shredded wood mulch.

I decided not to till and not to fertilize. I am debating however using a small amount of organic fertilizer such as milorganite. Not sure yet.

My spacing will be 7' apart and 7' from my stockade fence, and I will mulch 2.5 feet beyond the trees. (So the area I will be mulching will be 9.5 feet wide) I figure this spacing is a good compromise between creating a privacy screen and allowing room for mature height/width down the road.

Mineral requirement depends on mineral content of specific planting site, this is checked using sampling and testing of soil.

A golf course, like a farm field is much bigger than a 5' wide bed that is intended to house permanent plantings of woody plants that will last much longer than the amendments and grow much wider than 5' across. And agricultural crop plantings are frequently of short duration, with the fields being repeatedly re-planted, the soil conditions re-addressed as needed. Amending of new lawn plantings with bulk organic matter can be and has been seen to backfire due to uneven settling of the soil as the amendment decomposes and disappears.

A lot of dis-proven practices are still faithfully adhered to in horticultural operations despite being hokum, as in all other areas of human endeavor the fact that somebody has "always done it that way" is not evidence of viability.

Yes but the point is the 5' wide tilled bed* is merely helping you plant them without breaking an ankle or straining a back using a spade. By the time the roots reach the threshold of tilled vs. non-tilled areas, the structural dissimilarity caused by tilling, whatever it was, will have largely vanished. It's NOT like tilling bales and bales of peat moss or whatnot, into an area. (Which I now see is what the nursery's cut sheet apparently advocated. I do agree that is a bad idea, unless you're going to do it to a large area far away from plants' potential root zones as I have in some cases...probably about 1/2 of an acre)

* and very few tillers are that wide, only the larger agricultural models.

@Embothrium - I honestly have no idea how the soil on my property is as I’ve
never had it tested, but I don’t see any reason why there should be a problem.
There are healthy trees all around. All
I know is that it’s fairly sandy and rocky, which I assume is a good thing for
drainage. No idea about minerals and ph though.

Here’s the thing, if I were to get a soil test and find it
was lacking in something. How could I possibly permanently amend it?

Seems like the best thing to do, based on what you are
saying, is just plant them without using any fertilizer and hope for the best?

@david - That's true it would make the planting much easier, but I am only planting 18-24" trees, so these aren't going to be very big holes. Also, I was planning on using a shovel. You mentioned a spade? With regards to the width of the tiller, I'm confused as to what you meant. I didn't plan on making one pass, lol. If I rented a tiller, I would make several passes to create the 5' bed. But as of now I decided to skip that part and just dig the holes for each tree with my shovel with the ground as is. It seems compacted and rocky though, so hopefully that's not a problem.

You probably just need to make individual holes. These are much more easily dug if the ground is tilled first, as I believe Mike mentioned. If your soil looks more or less uniform, without a distinct, shallow natural topsoil layer then there will not be the same loss of this layer as if you were plowing through it with a tiller that goes deep enough to bring the next layer of soil below up into the topsoil. In those cases where such a topsoil layer is present another thing that can be done is shoveling this aside before tilling, then replacing it after planting (high enough to allow for this). But you never want to fork, shovel or till below the level of the root-balls at planting time as the plants may then settle too deeply later. The basic successful procedure is

1. Dig wide shallow hole, much wider than existing roots but never deeper

2. Place in hole, correcting root deformities and removing all enclosing materials such as twine, burlap or pots completely from hole*

3. Refill hole with same soil that came out of hole, without anything having been added to it

4. Stake for one year if needed

5. Mulch with wood chips or similar material

6. Apply granular fertilizer if needed

7. Water in well, keep watered during dry periods - this may need to be quite frequent until plants have rooted out

*Recent thinking is that the optimum approach also includes using water to remove field soil or potting soil from the roots at planting, working the back-fill soil in among the roots; in addition to removing initial watering problems due to the roots starting out inside a ball or pot shape of one soil texture surrounded by another this also makes it possible to inspect the entire root system for deformities, the worst of which are often right around the base of the stem

Thanks Embo, but I am confused by your # 6. Haven't you been saying this entire time not to not use any fertilizer? And with regards to the "if needed" part, how will I know if it's needed?

I never say not to use fertilizer, that is a hollow drum that others beat here. If a plant needs fertilizer, it needs it - you never want to not fertilize when a plant is deficient.

As stated previously the desired method for assessing soil minerals is sampling soil and having it analyzed. After a body has been gardening in a region long enough they may often be able to judge a situation without a soil test, for instance in my area nitrogen deficiencies are frequent on gardened sites but replacement of other primary nutrients is not a routine requirement. How well other plants are doing on a site can be a good hint.

Thanks again, I guess I'll wait and see what happens. By the way, it's raining a bit today and chance of T-storms tonight so I won't be able to put down the Roundup, until Sunday. Is 4 days too short a time to plant the trees and put down mulch after using the roundup? Also, any particular solution of roundup I should use?

"I never say not to use fertilizer, that is a hollow drum that others beat here."
It's not a hollow drum when practically every wholesaler produced plant I've bought in the past 10 years has scads of fertilizer beads ALREADY either encorporated into the soil mix or poured on top of the container. So I would say yes, never immediately fertilizing such a plant is good advice, since, if nothing else, by your own edicts excess fertilizer just gets wasted.
As I've explained before, the wholesaler is trying to get the plant out of their doors as quickly as possible. Part of that is optimal nutrition: in fact the largest lawsuit in US history involving a wholesale nursery concerned an improperly formulated fertilizer mix. In most cases, the thought a plant you are buying in a typical nursery setting needs immediate feeding is ridiculous. Sure there could be exceptions, you once mentioned what if something has sat on a sales lot for 2-3 years? In that case you could have more problems with it than merely being low in nutrients.
There are exceptions: a "folk" nursery like McLean in Baltimore grows mostly their own plants from scion or cutting onward, and I've never seen fertilizer beads in their mixes. Presumably they use some kind of water-applied method.

" Is 4 days too short a time to plant the trees and put down mulch after using the roundup?" No, I've done this lots of times. Be very sure you are only buying a product with glyphosate though, and not anything else. However you want to give the tops of the plants the full 4 days to die. In others words, don't spray roundup, cut them the next day and cover with mulch. Officially most of it should translocate that fast, but I'd want to be sure.

I would also say that, IMHO, and I'm not going to further argue this, most commercial big-box roundups contain only the bare minimum of surfactant needed. It won't even spread the spray on violet leaves. In a case like this where you are going for total kill down, if there's anything other than mild-mannered lawn grass, you want to use closer to the maximum recommended dilution and add about 1/4 tsp. of dish detergent per gallon, to really make sure you get good coverage. That small amount of extra surfactant means surface tension should not hold the water in beads on anything you spray.

I'm confused when you said your soil was sandy - I must have mixed you up with someone else because I thought there was a similar thread about clay soil. I would guess most but not all soil on LI is sandy.

Thanks David - Ok I just finished spraying the weed/grass killer. Instead of Roundup I purchased "HDX" which I'm Guessing might be Home Depot's own brand? But the reason I bought it was because the only active ingredient was the glyphosate, per your recommendation. The RU ones had additional active ingredients. Also, The HDX was a much better bang for the buck too. I added a little bit more than their recommended amount and also added the little but of detergent as you suggested. The area I sprayed was 10 feet wide and about 130 feet long. Used up the whole bottle of concentrate. Made about 6-7 2 gallon batches. Hopefully that kills everything out there. The weather is perfect based on the instructions. Sunny and warm (around 80).

Trees scheduled to arrive Thursday...and I still can't make up my mind whether to till or not, lol, but I am leaning towards not tilling.

I also have to define the line where the mulch will end and the lawn begins so i got a garden weasel manual edger. Guessing I kind of have to make almost a mini-trench so there is a drop off from where the lawn will end and the mulch will begin. And make it gradually slope up. Seems thats the way to do it based on what I've seen of other landscaping...

UPDATE: Trees were all planted a little over 3 weeks ago, and they are surrounded by 3" of mulch, extending 3 feet out from the front of the trees and 7ft behind the trees to the fence. Left about a 4" gap around the trunk of each tree so that the mulch wasn't up against the trees and the soil gets air. Also makes a nice watering hole so to speak, when I water them.

The trees had arrived all super green and super healthy. I liked how they attached a bamboo stick to each one, which I left on and really helps stabilize them The ties are lose so it still allows a decent amount of movement. So hat's off to the Botany shop. I think their price is very good, too.

Shortly after planting them, the color began to change on pretty much all the trees to a lighter green, then some starting getting brownish on certain parts too. I was a little concerned. But I was guessing it was from 2 things: 1) I really ripped up the roots pretty heavily, as they were almost all very badly rootbound. And 2:) They were getting hit hard with direct sun for most of the day.

They are still hanging in there though and looking a bit better. I don't expect to really see any growth until they get established which may not be until next year. Hopefully they will all make it. Fingers crossed.

pix really help ...

first.. they were probably greenhouse grown ... and should have been hardened off to full sun ... but that would have delayed planting .. so 6 of this.. etc ...

second.. that is probably.. based on the pic .. lol .. a shipping stake.. so that if the box flipped over.. the pots would have stayed in place ... probably good enough for this year ... but most likely.. based on the pic ... lol .. will be of little use by next year ... and i dought they will need them next year ...

third.. you bought what would be called generic RU ... good enough... all you need is the glyco ...

4th.. relax.. keep them properly watered.. insert finger.. and water WHEN THEY NEED IT ... let them near dry before watering again .. and frankly .. if that mulch gets damp.. it MIGHT BE A MONTH BEFORE THE SOIL BELOW starts drying ...

its not really about watering on some schedule... the only schedule is for you to go out there every third or 4th day.. AND CHECK ...

and unless your land is completely flat ... check them all on some rotation ... not each every time ... just to make sure.. some dont dry faster than others ...

do check more often.. if august is a scorcher ...

finally .. too many peeps put away the hose when they start raking leaves... and it never crosses their minds.. that later fall can be a drought ... so do keep checking thru mid to late nov ... and give them a drink IF THEY NEED IT ... but if you have clay [for others perhaps] ... do not drown them late in the year .. and freeze them into an ice cube .... especially if you are in ground freeze area ...

keep us posted..... and get some pix to show off ...

ken

Ok, I will get some pictures soon.

I'm pretty sure they were greenhouse grown and I knew the full sun would shock them a bit, plus me ripping the crap out of the roots + being put in my yard soil as opposed to perfect potting soil, I'm sure it was basically a triple-shock for them. And for the record I did zero soil amendment and zero fertilizer.

The bamboo stakes are definitely temporary. Just keeping them in there to hold them steady until they get established.

With regard to the watering, I am not on any schedule, just trying to use common sense and only watering when I feel they need it. And when I water I water very thoroughly. My soil seems to drain very well. In terms of my land, it actually is quite flat. The previous home owner pretty much excavated it into a perfectly flat piece of property front to back. It's not still perfectly flat, but mostly flat down the whole strip of trees.

Thanks for the info about watering late into the season, when needed. Will do.

One other thing I wasn't sure about is how straight they will grow. I have tried to plant them as straight as possible but some have a bit of curve to them so it's a little tricky. Will the trees naturally straighten themselves up as they grow? (if they aren't planted perfectly straight).

With regards to the generic RU I bought, it actually wound up killing everything. It just took much longer than it said it would take on the label. It was like 2 weeks I think before everything died, with the exception of a few stubborn weeds, 98% of everything was dead before the mulch was put down.

Thanks,

Kevin

UPDATE: Ok it's been a year and all the trees are doing ok. Some are doing GREAT, and others are still kinda small but still green. When I planted I really ripped up the roots a lot. Did a lot of watering that first summer, and did no soil amendments and no fertilizer. here are some pics:

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/trees1_zpslqm2gvl8.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/trees5_zpsylr9z1y2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/trees2_zps6a14viz4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/trees3_zpsswsqeans.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/trees4_zps76qrrxbl.jpg[/IMG]

they look fine.. from what i can see .. they arent all going to grow exactly the same ...

keep up water in the heat of summer ... next year.. they should be rather free range ...

now is the time to look for duplicate leaders.. and remove them ..

if you upload from your hard drive to photobucket.. there is no reason you cant upload to your posts.. and leave PB out of it ...

use the camera/photo icon below the box you type in to do so.. hit return between each pic.. to stack them ...

ken

I did that with the photos, after I did the PB thing, and realized I could upload them directly. No idea what happened.

Anyhow, yes the trees are all different sizes. Some are half the size of others. But I assumed the smaller ones would eventually get well established and catch up to the bigger ones, but maybe not.

What do you mean by free range? That I won't have to really water them anymore? (unless there's a drought)

As far as duplicate leaders go I think it will be hard for me to decipher if I see one or not, and do I remove it all the way at the base? Cut it off?

Here is an update on how the trees are doing today

glad to see they are doing well for you.

Thanks David. The only one issue is the few at the far end of the yard are still small and growing very slowly because they don't get much sun. But at least they are in a spot where privacy blockage is not really needed. That's the one saving grace. The ones at the other end, toward the front of the house are nice sized same as all the middle ones, so it's just the few at the end of the yard that are the munchkins. Overall i can't believe how fast these things grow. They do tend to get winter burn, but always recover each spring/summer.

To show how much they've grown, this is the trees exactly 3 years ago. They went from about a foot tall to 10-14ft tall: (That's me in the pic above and I am 6' tall for reference)

thanks for update , kevin . this was a good read , lots of info , differing opinions, all good

I have GGs from B S , about 30 ft tall

ron

Good job Kevin.
love seeing the before and afters....

Thanks folks, glad to share. And just for the record, I have never used any fertilizers of any kind. Just watered them a lot the first year and generally kept up on the mulch and weeding. Haven't watered them the past 2 years for the most part. So basically just planted them, mulched and watered. That's it.

yep, plants often don't need to be 'fed'.

Agreed, and thank you so much to the people who helped me out with this, I really appreciate it.

Thanks for posting this update. It's so nice to see your trees looking wonderful. You did a great job and your trees are thanking you. Looking forward to future updates.

Thanks 56steps! And yes I will post future updates.

bazinga... congrats ...

you mention the end ones are smaller.. and suggest less sun ... true ...

but have you considered what creates the shade ... and whether those trees are also stealing available water ?????

when you planted.. i am sure you cut a lot of tree roots near that corner .. do you recall such ??? ....and then you watered the transplants .... and the cut roots of the other trees.. probably responded by putting out new feeder roots ... right into your transplants ...

i dont think there is anything you can do about it .... except offer the small one more water???? ... and eventually they will grow ... no one ever said.. they would all end up exactly the same ..

i am just offering another variable than just reduced sun.. as to why they are growing the way they are ...

ken

It's the trees behind the back of our fence, which is not our property, that are blocking a lot of the sunlight, so yeah, nothing I can do about it. Didn't cut any roots when planting as none were visible in planting area, and also didn't cut any trees as there were none on my property. When the house was built all the trees except the one smack in the middle of our back yard were cleared as they were all pines. Anyhow, I will try watering them here and there, and see if that helps. Thanks for the feedback.