New to Kitchens? Read Me First.

Discussions on dish drawers:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2673354/love-or-regret-dish-drawers

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2681726/what-size-are-your-dish-drawers

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2581500/how-wide-are-your-dish-drawers

thank you for playing. The dish drawers may be a must with this size kitchen anyway.

Would it be easier if I did a cook top instead of a range?

I prefer a range, especially in my smaller kitchen. Which do you have now?

Advantages of a separate cooktop is that someone who might be cooking doesn't need to move aside if a helper needs to use the oven, and one doesn't need to bend over as far to load/unload the oven. Also, pots and pans can be stored in the cabinet under the cooktop, at point of use. A disadvantage is that the oven is no longer under the hood for venting, and not as close for transferring a pan from stove top to finish in the oven.

Adding threads discussing ranges and hoods between windows:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2672205/windows-on-side-of-range-hood

http://www.houzz.com/photos/windows-flanking-stove-/p/16

Here are a couple of threads discussing range vs. cooktop, and you can also post the question in the appliance forum.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2339269/range-vs-cooktop

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2422248/opinions-wall-oven-vs-range-vs-cooktop-and-single-oven

Mama Rachel, I have a layout that's very similar to Mama goose's plan above. I really like it!

Be aware that the size of your island may be limited by the slab size of the countertop you choose. I think mine is right at 9 ft, because that's the biggest size that Cambria came in (you have to allow some overage so they can do the edges). It's nicer not to have a seam if you can avoid it by cutting the size a few inches.

I have a rangetop, double ovens, and a drawer microwave.

Here are some photos to give you an idea.

Here you can see the dish drawers to the left, the prep sink, and the small trash to the right of the sink. The drawer micro is at the far right of the photo. This is where I stand and prep while my kids snack at the island. Depending on how many kids you have, you may not need 6 seats at the island. 9 feet is a generous space for 4 chairs.

This is more of an overview.

This is the range wall with the fridge at one end and the ovens at the other end. I think the symmetry is nice. You'd have windows where my uppers are, but I think that would be really pretty.

Oh, and here is the clean up area with DW to the right and trash to the left.

Wow, that is SO helpful. Thank you!

This is what I came up with but I love the clean-up area you have even more. How wide is that? Do you think you

I'd do a beverage station near the fridge. Unknown if my budget will allow for all cabinets under the island.

L9 would be dish drawers and silverware (near cleanup and cook)
L13 will be a bank of drawers for craft / school supplies, facing the nook
U5 would be cups / glasses, and that is REALLY far from the dishwasher but co-located to refrigerator / sink.

I think the clean up area is a 24" DW, 33" sink base, and 18" trash...with some filler at either end and a few inches for the door molding. So I think it's about 7 feet long or so?

Butternut, what a stunningly beautiful kitchen. How wide are your aisles?

MamaRachel, I didn't address aisle widths, but you should consider 42-48" counter edge-to-edge, which might be a little wider than those in your plan. Also I put the DW on the right side of the sink, so that the left side could be used as a secondary prep area, if you have a helper. Even if you don't need the extra prep space (or if there's not enough room on that run), if at all possible, try to leave some landing space on that side of the sink. I have a farm sink with only 8½", but I wish I'd had room for more. The 33" sink makes up for it somewhat--the things that would normally be placed beside the sink can be placed inside. My island is in the same location, relative to the sink, so I can also stack items there, if I need to spread out.

Met with cabinets and he had some good feedback. I pushed all the aisles out to 48" and snuck in an 11" trash-only pull out next to the sink. Trash / Recycling will be on island. I reversed the dishwasher loading direction, and talked about what to do for uppers above clean-up zone.

I went from a range to a cooktop + dbl ovens, reduced the island size for larger walkways (all 48" except to pantry). If I use chairs at the island w/ back (likely because small kids) they will stick out a bit into the sight line from the front door -----> down foyer hall. If I use a stool, they'd slide under all the way.

The only concern now really is that I'll always be putting items in the oven from the side slightly because that area is only 36" cabinet-to-cabinet not including the overhang so I'm hoping to get 32". It's narrower than I'd like, but having the ovens out of the traffic area will be very nice. I could swap the fridge and ovens but then I'm back to having the fridge in the back corner again, which is the least accessible location.

Still using my drawing (MS Excel :/ ) because the exercise today was to check overall cabinetry-only budget. I'm probably 8 weeks out from actual design time.

Larger picture:

Thanks mama goose! My aisles are 48 cab to can, which works out to about 45 counter to counter.

Mama Rachel you could consider the Bosch side opening ovens for that space.

It looks pretty good to me. I encourage you to consider moving your DW to where MamaGoose put it. This really does work better if you need a secondary prep surface. And allows you to keep DW door open while prepping so you can load directly into it instead of waiting until done prepping. Yeah, it is a few feet further out of the way but with it at the end of the run it won't be in the way if left open. You will just have to train family not to run around that corner without checking to see if DW is open.

I'd put some of your glassware in U2 unless all drinking is done from fridge.

Personally, I think your planned island is too deep. It may be hard to reach into the middle of it to wipe it down. You might consider only 12-15" deep lowers on the seating side. This would also make it easier to not have the backs of the chairs/stools showing from your entry.

I appreciate your attention to where things will be stored. I think you might want to move your measuring items, knives, colanders, etc., to your L6 unit. You will want these close to you for prepping, wouldn't you?

What, no windows? I love the look of the range between windows, but since I have no window in my kitchen, I lust after other people's windows.

You can still have secondary prep to the left of the sink, although I've read that folks don't enjoy prepping over a steaming DW. My prep space is over my DW, and it works out OK--I rarely have the DW running when I'm preparing a meal. Also with either an undermount sink, or a farm sink, you can have a cutting board made to fit on the edge of the sink (positive reveal), to extend the prep space.

I agree with funkycamper--I was thinking 9x4' for the island I drew. I'd make the drawers on the sink side extra deep, and skip the storage on the seating side, especially with the large pantry. Or, as fc suggests, have shallow cabs/shelves on the seating side, and keep your kids' supplies there--they're closer to the floor and the stored items anyway. ;)

Ack! No windows??!!!? I didn't even notice that. Google for range/cooktops in front of windows. With a hood it can look quite attractive and give you some natural light. Or maybe look into solar-tubes if there is no story above. I would feel claustrophobic without at least one window.

How about this?

• Move glassware into the L-5c drawer and move your leftover containers into the pantry. Then put glassware into one of the L-5 drawers. Eliminate U-5.
• Since you have silverware storage in L-7, do you really need more silverware storage in L-1? Move your mugs into one of the vacant drawers into one of those drawers and eliminate U-4 .

To be honest, I was thinking you had way too much glassware and mugs if they will each fill an entire upper so I do think those uppers are superfluous. If they really won't fit into one drawer each, put the excess in the pantry.

Doing this will allow you to either put a window on each side of the range OR one nice, large window with the hood centered on the window. Either way would be lovely. I would have to do it or I would hate being in my kitchen without any natural light.

I hope you will consider this. I think it's the best improvement you can make. I'd even suffer with less than adequate storage (which I don't think will be your problem with that huge pantry) or some kitchen inefficiency (which you won't have either) in order to have natural light.

Finally circling back around. We'd really like to do column refer / freeze, and that is really throwing my plans to the dumps. I am moving to an area where the nearest grocery is 20 minutes away, and I have boy children who at ages 7 and 4 already out-eat me! Any ideas?

I've " kind-of" made by doing a 30" cooktop, but I am sacrificing a ton of counter space and bumping the freezer a foot into the only dining space in my house.

So a few questions for the experts here:

1) Am I going to be frustrated with this reduction of counter space on the perimeter wall on either side of the cook-top by reducing to ~28"? If I go to a 36" cook-top I'm at 25" on either side. This makes me very nervous.

2) Is the fridge / freeze columns bumping into the dining space going to give me grief? I've placed a 9ft table in the space with 24" wide "chairs" to visualize. This is the holiday table w/ the leaf in it. My nuclear family is only 4 people. 10 is the most people I'll ever seat at once without having to make a "kids table" anyway.

3) Can you think of any other configurations where I can have the column fridge / freeze while keeping the clean-up zone off of the island?

The other option I thought of was to put my secondary wall-oven under
the counter and do a 36" range rather than a cooktop, but I'm not sure
if that would look odd aesthetically.

Bump

What about putting the freezer column in the pantry?

Just an idea off the top of my head..

That's what I was thinking....freezer in pantry. I would want the fridge to end roughly where the island ends. This way you can extend your counter a bit on that wall.

I still think L8-10 should be 12" deep. Even the kids will probably not put things all the way back in there as they will be hard to reach and I think your island is too wide. You need the space for walking around more than you need that extra room on the island, imho.

These are the minimum recommended counters around a cooktop that isn't also used for prepping. Your 28" on each side is just fine. I currently only have 19" on my non-prep side and it's plenty. I basically just put my seasonings there to add when I'm cooking. I've rarely if ever needed more than about about a foot, maybe, of that counter.

The Thirty-One Kitchen Design Rules, Illustrated | Homeowner Guide | Design/Buil · More Info

I
like nancyjwb's suggestion to put the freezer in the pantry--it looks
as if it will fit on the top wall. You could consider a sliding pantry
door, if the door swing won't work. That solves the freezer in the DR
problem, and gets you space for the bigger cooktop/landing space.

It's
too tight between the dining table and freezer column (and table and
island), but if the table is extended only for holidays, folks are used
to making concessions. Seat yourself at the end, so that you can grab
the forgotten drink, or refill the gravy boat. ;)

You didn't ask, but I still like the idea of 4' wide island. Mine is 3x5, and I can reach the middle easily from the 5' length, but it just seems that 8x5 would be huge. BTW, is your table drawn to scale? It looks wider than the island!

The table is drawn I think too wide but it is the length I need (with leaf in).

I haven't purchased the table yet. waiting on cabinet colors then will have it made custom.

If I make those cabs 12 inches deep I lose the drawer stack L10 entirely I think. How deep do I need for the microwave In L6?

DH is thinking oven in pantry. Is that doable?

Making L8-10 shouldn't impact L6 at all. It would be the same size. Is L10 a drawer stack facing out toward the dining room? Then that would be a 12" wide drawer stack instead of 24" wide. My concern would be L7. You would lose the filler on each side and may need to make that a bit narrower of a drawer stack. Hard to tell without knowing how wide it is

I dunno...to me, I just think that island is too big for your space and narrowing it would get the stools more out of the walkway and line of sight from your entry. However, it seems we all have to make some kind of trade-off in our designs so the big island may not bother you as much as it would me in your size kitchen.

Pantries should be kept cooler and drier in order for the food stored there to keep fresher longer. I think it would be a bad idea to put an oven in there. In another discussion, one of our best resident experts, buehl, cautioned against a microwave in a pantry due to possible moisture issues from items being cooked. I would think a regular oven would be far worse than that as it would generate moisture and heat. Both are bad things for pantries.

Edited to add: I just noticed that L7 is a two-drawer stack. Have you measured and weighed your dishes? Do you really need that high of drawers for them? Do to weight issues, you may want to space those dishes out between at least 3 drawers. Especially if they are heavy plates. And weigh what you plan on putting in each drawer. Ensure that the drawer construction, cabinet box, and hardware can hold that weight. And remember that if the hardware states it will hold 100# that this includes the weight of the drawer itself.

I have a 24" wide, 4-drawer stack holding, top to bottom: cutlery, one set of plates/salad-plates/bowls, another set of plates/salad-plates/bowls, with my glassware in the bottom drawer which is taller. And I have plenty of room but my everyday sets of plates are thin and lightweight. Yours might be more bulky. If so, the would be even more important to distribute the weight between more drawers.

I bring this up because someone here on GW had plates in a drawer that busted due to having too much weight. Her cabinet boxes were pressboard, not plywood. And her dishes exceeded the weight rating for the hardware as she was not made aware that the drawer weight mattered.

Really be careful about this. I would hate to see you have a broken drawer and broken dishes.

Okay, thank you for the feedback, will reconfigure and come back again. You have no idea how helpful this all is.

I will of course finalize with a kitchen designer but my build contract will is being reviewed by my lawyer now and is a fixed price build w/ allowances. I need to be sure I have the plumbing line / gas line locations pretty much where I want them to sign and get started this week. A rough layout that works is on the critical path.

Okay, here we go again...

Freezers and Refrigerators both give off quite a bit of heat; unless the pantry is either wide open or has very, very good ventilation and/or a way to cool it down, I would not put either in a pantry.

(GWer RHome410 has her large refrigerator in the pantry, but it's wide open so heat isn't trapped.)

Good call by your DH regarding the freezer.

FunkyCamper is right - an oven would be even worse- even if used only occasionally.

What is that gray rectangle shooting out from your island? Another DW? If so, I strongly recommend you rethink it. If you want two DWs, keep them next to each other. We had several GWers who separated their DWs and later regretted it. They were always running back and forth b/w them b/c they didn't know which DW had what. Even when you plan to, e.g., just put pots & pans or prep dishes in one and dinner dishes in another, what happens in reality is that things get mixed - sometimes b/c one DW can't hold everything so the overflow goes into the other; sometimes b/c someone just doesn't stick to the plan!

.

***** See my post below...I think that's the built-in MW, not a DW *****

Regarding the sink in the island...I would move it over to one end or the other. Right now, your biggest potential piece of workspace is split by the prep sink.

Put an 18" trash pullout on one side of the sink and then the rest of the counterspace on the other end.

I have to admit I really don't like how the refrigerator and freezer dominate the space - to the point that they're in the way of allowing the island to be a great prep area. They also rob you of a lot of workspace around the cooktop.

Other red flags -

1. The 36" aisle b/w the wall oven and the sink run. While the oven cabinet is 24" deep, the oven, the oven doors, and the oven handle will all stick out even further - another 4" to 6" further - thus reducing the aisle by a lot. You will only be able to access the oven from the sides - not the front b/c you won't have room to stand in front of the oven door - unless the oven door opens to the side and you have room to open the oven door w/o hitting the counter across and can maneuver around the door (depending on the side the hinges are on).
2. Built-in MW...I see now that you have a "built-in MW" in that cabinet, so I'm assuming that gray rectangle is the MW door. What type of MW is it? A drawer? A standard built-in? If standard built-in under the counter, then be aware that it will be difficult to use unless everyone in your family is very short (and will always be short). You will have to lean over quite far to see & use the controls and will have to squat to see in the window or to reach in to stir something. If the MW is to be under the counter - then get a MW drawer. (See Butternut's island above - it has a MW drawer.)
3. Island...remember you need the following space for seating:

• 24" of linear space per seat. If you have island legs, then add more b/c people will need room to maneuver around the legs. The 8' island (96") will only accommodate 3 people b/c of those legs. Eliminate the legs and you can fit 4 people.
• 15" minimum overhang (if you have a tall family, increase it to 18" - I wish we had). This is 15" of clear knee/leg space - after accounting for cabinets and decorative doors/end panels on the backs of cabinets or doors if there are operable cabinets under the seating overhang.

Pantry door - make it a pocket door. The inside swing will force you to shut the door to get to the shelves behind the door. A pocket door will give you full access.

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No windows? Or. are you putting your cooktop in front of a window? (that's what I see in the second picture) Remember, the window cannot have flammable window treatments and many jurisdictions will not allow an operable window behind a range/cooktop.

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Better would be to reduce the refrigerator & freezer and flank the cooktop with windows. They would bring in more light and be much more pleasant overall.

24" wide all-freezer + 24" all refrigerator is a lot of space. It looks like you have ones that are much wider than that - 36", if I counted the squares correctly (if you explained why they're so big earlier, I missed it.)

The width of each the refrigerator and freezer is listed as 32", plus trim, puts the unit at 66". I've adjusted. I cannot afford the Thermador columns that have less width. These are the frigidaire models.

The double oven I'm looking at has a cut-out depth of 23.5" and an overall depth of 24.75" installed. Open, it is 45.75". Even if I add 1" for the back hookups or cabinetry (not sure if necessary) I'm at 46.75" fully opened. This means I have 1' of space from counter behind a fully-opened door. That is meaningless since you can't fit in 12" safely to operate an oven.

This means I do have to load the oven from the side. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to come up with a suitable alternative location for the ovens.

I could consider the Verona 36" double oven range and take-back all of that counter by skipping the wall ovens entirely. This is what my DH would like to do. I cannot find another manufacturer that makes a double-oven range within our price point. I cannot afford a 48" double-oven range.

Or, I can do a single oven 36" range and just deal with not having two ovens. Maybe I'll buy one of those electric turkey roasters they sell?

OR, I could lose the extra-awesome refrigerator.

OR, maybe I'm missing a layout alternative? I really prefer prep on island to face out, and cleanup on perimeter to "hide" the mess.

Any suggestions? I can delete the pantry I guess for more space but then I also maybe lose the only closet in the main area of the house (guest jackets).

@Buehl - if the pantry had louvered doors or a transom window that was left open or something else that would provide ventilation, would the freezer in there still put out too much heat? Just curious for future reference.

For as infrequently as I'll use the 2nd oven this sure is a lot of bother. Even without the extra wide fridge idea, the oven stack only fits in that one spot. I can't think of an alternative. The floorplan as written has the refrig on the short wall, the ovens on the end near the dining area, and the sink on the island.

Just a quick idea. Removed the pantry wall, kept a bigger foyer closet. Recessed the freezer in the foyer closet and have shallow cabs or reach-in pantry next to it. Moved sink/dw/wall oven to the range wall. Moved MW next to the fridge. Have trash/prep sink/prep area in the island.

Edit: Forgot about the door swing of freezer. So could be pantry cab on the wall side and freezer on the island side.

Let me think about it for awhile and try to work on it later today (either during lunch or when I need a break from work later. I keep thinking there has to be a way to keep a walk-in/step-in/reach-in pantry and the closet and still make it more functional. (Pantry cabinets are much more expensive than built-in pantries as well as less efficient and functional.)

Meanwhile, could you post a picture of the entire first floor (or whatever floor the kitchen is on)? Sometimes it helps to see the big picture - we may even come up with other ideas that may lead to a more functional overall layout.

It's unfortunate, but so many architects and builders leave the kitchen design for last and then you're stuck trying to fit a functional kitchen into a space with a lot of constraints. In reality, it should be one of the first things designed.

Here's a quick idea, with the fridge and freezer in the architect's original space. You'd be prepping in front of a wall, unless you change your mind about a window on that wall.

The same, with clean-up on wall, and prep in island.

Relevant information. Great Room has 20' ceilings, with a wall of windows. Nook slider is 8' wide, with transom. Kitchen ceiling is 10'. The thing that looks like a wall between the great room and nook / ceiling is a structural beam. The plan is entirely open.

I can probably push for space into the den. We are not putting a closet in there, as my DH does work from home full time this will be his working space. He is in sales and does not entertain clients so even a 10'4" by 11'4" space is likely sufficient. The question will likely become then if this changes too much structurally.

How about if you go with a range, and put the freezer where you show wall ovens? Slide the range over so it's centered between the two.

One thing that concerns me about the layout by the sink (where the cleanup sink is on the right side of the kitchen, and the DW is on the right side of the sink): it looks like U2 is only 12" wide. I lived with three of those in my old kitchen, and they were a pain. Now they are 15", and it's like night and day. I also think that the elevation of that wall - with a 12" cab on one side, and a 24" on the other, with nothing in between, would look odd.

Sadly, I have no better alternative - only a criticism. Sorry.

It's okay. I think I'll do some open Millwork shelving between, or a raised cabinet (so I have sink clearance) with extended backsplash. I agree the 12" cabinet is terrible, but I've slated to store medicines in there, which may sound strange to some. I have the same stupid 12" cabinet in my current house and I store medicines on the bottom two shelves and hand towels in the top shelf (30" upper). Things like Epi-Pens and Tylenol. In the house before that I kept coffee beans and filters in the bottom, tea supplies in the mid, and tea towels in the top, and that worked okay too.

I'm almost to the point of "nothing is going to be perfect".

Unfortunately, I did not have time today to work on it....

Have you considered a side swing oven? Bosch makes one...I've linked to it below from AJ Madison's site. I'm sure it's available elsewhere as well.

Bosch Benchmark Series HBLP451

30" Single Electric Wall Oven with 4.6 cu. ft. European Convection Capacity, Self-Clean, 14 Cooking Modes, Fast Preheat, Temperature Probe and Side-Swing Door

http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/HBLP451.html

Or one of these...but they're narrower

Fagor 6HA200TLX

24" Single Electric Wall Oven with 1.98 cu. ft. Oven Capacity, 10 Cooking Programs, Left Side Door, European Style Convection, LCD Touch Controls, Child Lock and Telescopic Pullout System

http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/6HA200TLX.html?mv_pc=gg_pla&st-t=googlepla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=adwords&utm_campaign=pla&utm_term=&gclid=CJfGy6CPncUCFVUbgQodir0ACw

=============================================

Frigidaire Gallery 27" Single Electric Wall Oven w/Convection

http://www.searsoutlet.com/d/product_details.jsp?pid=115619&mode=buyUsedOnly&sid=IDx20110411x000008&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=U991115619&gclid=COuCzs-PncUCFVFp7AodD1cA8g

If the second oven is only for holidays, why not just have a big range oven and get a warming drawer? Or get a breville countertop oven to pull out of the pantry for holidays. I actually don't know anyone with a 2 oven kitchen unless they are baking fanatics or it came with the house ;)

IMO if you have to compromise somewhere (and everyone does), you don't spend much time standing in front of the oven as you do in front of the sink, stove, or prepping. Or the fridge even. I am biased, but I think a range with a small side swing oven like the fagor would be a really functional solution.

I'd kind of ruled out the Bosch side swing because I couldn't afford the double version, but a range plus that might be perfect.

How do the microwave convection ovens actually cook? Can a roast vegetables in one?

If it's like mine (I have a GE Trivection), you can use speed cook/bake/broil using the MW aspect, you can bake/roast/broil using convection, and you can bake/roast/broil using "traditional". So, you can choose to cook the way you want to.