Hi Emily,

Welcome to the forum and to growing citrus. I'm from Henderson, NV and have been to St. George numerous times. It seems as though you have a similar dry climate to us but are generally cooler year around. Anyhow, for my potted citrus I've settled on a variation of 5:1:1 that was suggested by Patty S. in several places in the forum. It involves making a soil that contains 4 parts cactus/citrus soil, 1 part perlite, and 1 part bark fines (I found that the small bark mulch at Walmart is fairly inexpensive - $5 for 2 cu ft - but you can also find a similar product at a pet store sold as bark for lizards). Straight 5:1:1 dried too quickly for my taste in the desert. Ferterlizing with Foilage pro (found online) and osmocote plus (must be plus) with the mentioned soil has worked well for me.

The classic "gritty mix" in my opinion is out for citrus. Maybe when young but Our trees eventually need to be in the biggest container you can physically handle and the gritty would limit you to a smaller pot because of the weight. The 5.1.1 mix is good because it drains well but also holds well and its lighter. Mixing your own is the best way to go. you can make miracle grow potting soil pretty decent by adding in more perlite.

So frustrated, I had a decent response for each of you typed up on an ipad, but it crashed moments before I was ready to post! Trying from my phone now, and hopefully I can remember the questions that I had! Thank you so much for both of your responses!

Zwoydziak, it is so nice to meet someone else who lives in a similar desert climate! Do you have any other tips for keeping citrus healthy around here? I much appreciate you sharing the recipe you use for soil. Is the small bark mulch an equal for pine fines (honestly I have no idea what pine fines are, and have been worried about trying to find them here. Are they nuggets?) And do you need to sift through anything in your mix recipe when you are putting it together? It sounds like a much easier option. Does the perlite need to be a certain size?

I have my trees (as seen in the picture) on a south facing wall in front of brick/my front window. We are in a town home (middle unit) so the only options I have for outside are in the front there or on the back patio, which is very shady (only sees about an hour of sun per day.) In front of the house the trees see sun from noon to 6, and since the weather is really nice right now they seem pretty happy. I am worried though that when the temps get up in the 110F range, they might be stressed out in the direct afternoon sunlight. Do you put bark or mulch on top of your soil to retain moisture? Thank you!

Mksmth, I have been going back and forth over using the gritty mix. I read a bunch of posts saying that it is the best and then I convince myself that I must do whatever I can to make gritty mix work, but then I am brought back to reality and remember, like you said, that my pots will be extremely heavy with gritty mix! I would really like to be able to move the plants in and out by myself, and I know that wouldn't be a possibility with gritty mix. Is there a way to make gritty mix lighter (like can perlite be subbed for granite? That might be a ridiculous question, sorry if it is!) I think I would be fine doing a 5-1-1 mix if I can find everything that I need for it, but I just wasn't sure if that would be best because in a lot of posts it is mentioned that you should only use 5-1-1 if you plan to keep them in it for one year then repot, or if you are using it with annual plants. Would you suggest that when I plant that I move them up to bigger pots or keep them in the same size pot? I don't know if they are root bound or not, but I do want to get them out of the soil they are in now (especially the older plants from home depot)

As a general question, when you re pot, are you supposed to rinse all the soil out of the root ball or keep it in tact? And should the top of the soil be a few inches below the lip of the pot or close to the lip? These are just about the only plants I have ever owned, so any and all information is greatly appreciated!

emily.

No thats not a bad question. Yes you could effectively replace the granite with perlite. I use the "coarse" size. typically you have to find it a nursery and not Home Depot or lowes. I got all excited when I first started out and sourced all the stuff for the gritty. Made a ton of it. Put a few citrus in it and then I realized. 1. It isnt very cheap. 2. it dried out way to fast in our 110 degree summers. 3. it weighed a ton when wet. I have about 8 citrus and 30 plumeria. The gritty was not the way to go for me. I just found out that Lowes isnt carrying my go to stuff anymore. Hapigro landscapers mix. Out of the bag mixed with perlite it is about as close as you can get to the 5.1.1. I ll have go back to using screen pine mulch now.

Your role now it to keep the roots happy first before all else. That means for now on you are tasked with re-potting or root pruning. Re- potting you will increase pot size and tease the roots to grow into their new home. Root pruning is where you remove up to a 1/3 of the root ball and put the plant back into the same pot but add new media. You can also do root pruning when you re-pot.

I have tried to increase my pot size by 5 so Ill start with a 1 then 5 then 10 then 15 up until I reach the largest pot i can handle. Looks like that will be somewhere around the 20-30 mark

Browsing the container forum is good for learning but can be a bit overwhelming.

Also you can visit tropical fruit forum there is an active citrus subforum there.

Mike

Thank you all so much for the feedback! I ran to home depot tonight just to have a look around and found Vigoro coarse perlite (about $17 for 2 cu. ft.) and they have peat moss there. I found a bag of what I "thought" would be great to use as the 5 in the 5-1-1, called Nutri Mulch, but after doing some searching, this is what I found online about it, and I don't think it is what I am looking for anymore. Here is what it says on a website about Nutri Mulch:

"This mulch is made from a mixture of composted sawdust and turkey manure. The sawdust and turkey manure is gathered from the floors of the turkey pens before the turkeys are released into their growing yards. Nutri Mulch is then composted until all the materials reach the desired texture. It contains a lot of organic nitrogen from the turkey manure. Straight turkey manure, without the sawdust, would be much too strong for your gardens and would contain too much salt for your plants to tolerate. This is just the right blend."

(a couple pictures I took of the Nutri-Mulch at Home Depot)

I am a little discouraged because I don't know exactly what to look for, so if anyone has some ideas, they would be appreciated. I may try to check out Walmart to see if they have that same small bark mulch here that was mentioned above. If I can't find something suitable, then I am thinking maybe it would be better to just stick to the 5 pts cactus soil rather than bark? Or maybe I could do like 3 pts citrus soil, 2 pts bark, 1 pt perlite? I am just so worried now about using the soil after reading all of the posts that say that a bagged soil is a bad thing. But I don't want to go crazy and make something up, since I have virtually no knowledge and experience in this area. One benefit that I see to doing a traditional 5:1:1 mix, is that I could probably plant a few veggies in it as well if I make extra, as I plan to start a very small garden (in containers) this year.

And I'm glad that you brought up root pruning, because that is something that I have also been considering, I suppose I need to do a whole lot more research on it. I admit that it sounds appealing to me, as I don't want to put them in bigger pots if not totally necessary. Obviously I will move the ones in the black nursery pots into bigger containers, perhaps 14", then I could keep them all in pots of similar size. If I do this, should I trim the root ball on the older trees that would be staying in 14" pots and not trim the roots of the smaller trees that will be moving up a pot size? I will definitely paint all of the pots a very light or white color. I will also definitely let them rest in the shade. Hoping to get this repotting thing done by the end of the week this week, so I appreciate all of the quick replies. This forum is such an awesome place for beginners like me!!

Emily

I have been thinking and maybe will try to make a "gritty" mix by using 1:1:1 DE (Napa 8822), coarse perlite, and pine bark, all sifted to their correct sizes. I am pretty sure I will have easy access to all three ingredients (hoping I don't have to resort to the expensive reptibark, but I guess if that is the only type I can find, I will have to) and I am hoping that the perlite helps with water retention since we live in a desert, and will also make the pots lighter than the granite.

Does this seem like a good or bad idea? If you were going to do something like this in a very hot climate, would you mulch the top of the pot to help with water retention? I am willing to water my trees every day or two, as needed, but I don't think I will be able to water more than once or twice a day, max. Does this sound feasible for my climate and trees? And if I do this mixture, I will probably plant all 4 in 12-14 inch pots, unless you think I should go with 14"-16" pots.

Also, any suggestions on where to find or make inexpensive screens if I go this route would be helpful. They have 1/4" and 1/2" hardware cloth at home depot. Thank you!

The cactus soil might be great this summer when its nice and warm but what about the months when its dark and cold and the citrus has to be indoors? I would suggest the 511 for sure. I have a Washington navel in it now and had a Meyer lemon in it for three years. The pine bark for the 511 will last several years so you wont have to worry about re potting for a while. I know our walmart (west Oregon) has the small pine bark that is perfect for 511. Sometimes with these soils you have to work extra hard watering in summer but will have piece of mind in winter that you wont cause root rot by over watering. You have nice trees there, good luck with them. Jack

Emily, Mike and mikerno have good suggestions and they've been doing this longer than me. I did try the miracle grow citrus/cactus mix which held onto water too long and compacted resulting in my first round of plants suffering as a result. Adding the perlite (same type that you found at home depot) small bark nuggests to the MG mix helped a bunch. The straight 5:1:1 mixture dried out way too quickly for me and I nearly killed two of my kumquat plants from that mixture (fortunately they made a full recovery and are doing well now). Since then I moved to the recipe I gave above and it seems to be the best compromise. The nutrimulch seems about the right size, though the Walmart bark mulch is a little more consistent in size and on average is a bit smaller. I'm not sure about the saw dust and turkey poo... Maybe the Mikes can comment on that. The bark mulch I bought is made of small pine bark nuggets (which I use as the bark fines). I haven't been able to find a comparable product at Home Depot or Lowes around here in Vegas, Walmart was the only choice. I'm not sure if they have the same product where you're located but it's worth looking. I didn't bother screening and have had good results.

Other than that, my potted trees have done well in a southern exposure with 6-9 hrs of sun but some shade either the morning or afternoon. Even with the 5:1:1 varient mixes the correct watering has been key and it changes throughout each season. I usually let my trees soil dry about 2" down before I water again. Good luck finding the ingredients!

Zach

The best bagged mulch you can get to use for the bark is plain old pine bark mulch. Not the nuggets. they are too big. You will need to sort out the smaller pieces. Honestly when I sift mine i use a 1/2" screen and keep every thing that fall through. Those that get serious will sift out that though an 1/8" and keep what doesnt fall though. Way to much work for me plus the smaller stuff can supplement the 1 part of peat.

Thank you so so much for all of the responses Jack, Zach, Mike and Mikerno! I appreciate you all so much! I think I have decided to commit to doing a 5:1:1 mixture. I plan to get the moss, perlite, and lime tomorrow at home depot. I ran over there tonight to look at mulches again and found two things that I think may work. They are both by the company Mountain Magic. One is premium grind bark mulch. The ingredients are Western fir and pine bark. It looks pretty finely ground. Has anyone heard of this product or think it may work? I wasn't sure if fir bark mixed in with pine is okay? Then the second one is called Soil Pep and it is Western fir and pine bark and composted forest products, Is it better to use a pure bark mix or something that has composted products in it? Or should I search elsewhere (Walrmart, Star Nursery, Lowes, etc.)?

One other question is does it matter if they are grown in a square planter or a round one? I found these square planters while I was at home depot and thought they might be kind of neat, but I don't know if it would make re potting in the future harder or anything. Thanks! Planning to go and get all of the supplies for the soil tomorrow, as I have a coupon that expires tomorrow that I would like to use.

Below is the Walmart version that I use. They sale it as "small nuggets"
which still maybe too big? It was the closest thing that I could find
to the pet store bark, while still being economical ($5/ 2 cu ft).
Seems to work well for my trees for over a year now, but still being
relatively new to growing citrus I have many things to learn.

I think I finally was able to round up all of the things that I need to make the 5-1-1 after visiting several stores yesterday! And in the meantime I bought 3 more trees. They finally got the new crop in at Home Depot. I have been toying back and forth with the idea of taking back the original 2 trees that I bought because they don't seem to be in very good health, plus they were more expensive. So I will be taking back the Bearss lime and Oro blanco. They both have some browning under the leaves and leaf curling that has been there since before I bought them and doesn't seem to be getting much better. But the new trees that they got in are just gorgeous. I bought a little Tango Mandarin, an Oro blanco, and a huge Eureka Lemon. It even has a lemon growing on it right now!! I also plan to get a 1 gal Bearss lime as well, so I think I will end up with 6 trees.

All of the trees are in black nursery containers, 5 gal, and I think I will repot (pot up, with a little root trim) into 13" containers. The containers are a slate gray color and I don't know if I should paint them white or leave them gray. I bought Osmocote plus yesterday too, I will plan to mix that in with the 5:1:1 soil. I will order some Foliage Pro online soon. After repotting, I will leave the trees on my back patio for 2 weeks (?) where they will be protected from the sun and wind. I really hope that all of the trees make it through this process okay! Here is a picture. Orange and mandarins on the left, lemon in the middle, oroblanco on the right. (Please ignore my husband who was trying to hide behind the Eureka)

Looks like a nice set of trees!

Zach, sorry I didn't see your post before I put my last one up! I saw something similar to that at Walmart yesterday when I was there! It was Greensmix Small Bark Nuggets, but I thought they were too big to use. They had a greensmix soil conditioner too but it was in a white bag and I couldn't see the particles inside. I thought about getting it. In the end I just bought the mountain magic premium grind bark mulch from Home Depot. It looks like it will work (just through the clear bag) but after I open the first bag and run it through the 1/2 hardware cloth we will see. I will keep you posted!

Small nuggets at Walmart

I'll have to keep an eye out for the mountain magic grind bark mulch. Let me know how it turns out for you!

I will definitely let you know. If after I open the first bag, I am not totally satisfied, I will probably be headed back to Walmart. I plan to put the mix together this afternoon. I am scared of the whole process, but I have watched some YouTube videos and I think I have done all the research that I can, so I just need to go for it.

One question that I have that I haven't been able to find a good answer for is whether or not to completely bare root the tree before putting it in the new soil. Since they are in regular potting soil now and the 5:1:1 is quite different (and I don't want the 511 messed up by the soil in the root ball) I am thinking that I should rinse the roots after trimming them back a little, before putting them in their new pots with the new soil. Then I plan to prune the tops a little after they are in the new pots (especially the new trees, the lemon and oroblanco are looking a little shaggy and homeless right now.) Any advice on that? I am hoping to do the whole process either this afternoon/evening or tomorrow. Thank you!

I usually give it a good spraying with the hose to get rid of the old soil. One tip, either pre-water the 5-1-1 or really soak the pot a few times (or do both) as soon as you finish.

Oh man guys, sorry so many questions! But I just started sifting through the bag of mountain magic and I think maybe it isn't going to work. If I understand correctly, the pine fines are supposed to be small almost circular pieces of bark, right? This bag has a lot of longer stick looking stuff, with some of the more round pieces. And about half or at least 1/3 wouldn't fit through the 1/2 inch screen. Here is a picture of a little bit of the mountain magic that has already been through the sifting process, with a penny in there to show size. Opinions would be greatly appreciated. I haven't checked out lowes yet, and could always try Walmart again.

You're pretty far along in your 511 mix and you have the right help for your area. More of a comment FYI to the folks in your thread:

I created a much lighter gritty mix by using small pumice as a replacement for the heaviest ingredient in gritty, the stone/grit. I've also done it with large sized perlite. I made changes so I could move around half barrel and 20g sized containers.

Pumice is very light but is adding a porous ingredient vs the grit non porous. But honestly I needed that extra retention in hot, drought laden desert California. The mix can still be set next to lawn sprinklers and never get overwatered in my climate.

Besides startup work and cost, another downside for gritty comes in winter as the extra root aeration during freeze weather really hurts the roots so you have to protect them, whereas soil based mixes like 511 fair much better outside.

Cebury, thanks for the comment. I am glad to know that a lighter mix can be made! I still find myself asking if I should be doing a gritty mix instead of what I am making, but maybe it's a little late? Maybe not though! I could always just take back my unopened supplies... I went to the second Walmart in town to see if they had anything and they had almost nothing. No pine nuggets or soil conditioner or anything :( so back to Home Depot (which is quickly becoming my second home... I have been there every day for 5 days now.) I bought some soil pep, which is in a white bag that I can't see through. It is fir and pine bark with composted forest materials so maybe if it ends up being the right consistancy I won't have to use the peat moss.

You could always take the larger nugget mix and run over a pile of it with a lawn mower ;-) There are at least 2 people on the old GW board who would do that to get it the right size rather than driving everywhere. Just get the right mix without the woody material (usually long skinny pieces)....

The 511 will be better than what you'll get vs. potting soil. Maybe leave the gritty mix until the next time you potup/repot in a couple years as you get more experience with your tree in the container. The 511 mix is certainly lighter.

Another positive about the gritty is you can't go "too big" with the initial size. You can plant a teeny-weeny in a half barrel and not worry about the pot size. That's not very cost nor labor efficient but where I'm at the stuff grows so fast the trees size up very well and the ones that lasted through my droughts and mistakes (sprinklers died and I didn't notice in 110 heat) were the huge potted ones. I lost a slew of tiny potted containers in that fiasco. Your area is way different though.

Thanks again Cebury! If I had a lawn mower, I would definitely be doing that. I may try going to the Walmart in town that carries the small bark nuggets and sift through those, though I think only about 1/4 of the bag will be small enough, if that. I guess I could always smash the bigger ones with a hammer haha.

Warning to everyone, the mountain magic bark mulch is bad for this purpose. I spent about 3 hours siftingn and hand picking out sapwood, and still feel like there is too much sapwood. Out of the bag I ended up with enough "usable" to make about 2 five gallon pots of the 5:1:1.

If you could look at these pics (the sifted product and the dust from when I sifted through the small screen, with a penny for size) and tell me if you think it is usable at all that would be great. I can keep trying to find better bark to mix in with this stuff so maybe it will end up a bit better? Thanks all!

Also one more question. I got these slate grey plastic planters at Walmart and they have 6 places on the bottom to drill through... Should I drill more than 6 holes? Do I need to drill any holes on the side of the pot (like around the very bottom to help with the perched water table or anything? And do you think he color is light enough to go without painting them white? Thanks!

My guess is that it wouldn't hurt to drill more holes and my pots are slightly darker than your and they didn't seem to be effected by the hot Vegas sun.

Zach

The lawnmower might be a bit difficult to handle, but idea of essentially chopping up the mulch to finer bits may not be a bad one. I'm actually thinking about getting an electric chipper/shredder to convert the small nugget mixture to smaller ones. Here is one I'm looking at: http://www.walmart.com/ip/19592812?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227015536918&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42532892072&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=81189724232&veh=sem.

Zach

Thanks Zach!! I will probably keep the planters the gray color. I can always paint them later if needed. That chipper looks amazing! Would make things so much easier! If I had the space and money to invest in something like that I totally would. If you get one, you will have to let us know how it goes! I am planning to get some Greensmix soil conditioner today from Walmart (if they still have it.) the ingredients are pine fines and composted forest material. It is in a white bag so I couldn't see through it when I was there the other day but I have read a few things that say it works. Maybe I will get some small bark nuggets to mix in as well. I may try to mix it in with the mountain magic mulch that I sifted through last night (pictured in my last post)

Hey all! (I apologize if this should be on a new thread?) I am trying so hard not to be annoying, but I find myself doubting almost every decision that I am making through this soil mixing process and could use a little bit more advice. Thank you so much to everyone who has helped me so far. I attempted to post on the container forum to give you guys a break, and because I noticed that there are many conversations there about soil mixing, but my post went unanswered so far. I was hoping to mix some soil yesterday, but didn't dare move forward without any validation. So I have just a few more questions about my materials, if you all don't mind giving a little more input.

I am wondering about the pine fines - So far I have opened two bags of material and sifted through them. The first bag is mountain magic premium grind bark mulch. It is made of Western fir and pine bark. The mix seems to be too big in general, with a lot of woody material. I am wondering if it is at all useable or if it should be mixed with the product below this one to create a mix with different sized bark pieces... Here is a picture after I ran it through a 1/2 inch grate and then screened out the tiny particles. I also attempted to pick out the woody material for a few hours, but as you can see, there is still a lot of it left.

The second product I have tried is Soil Pep, also by Mountain Magic. It is Western Fir and Pine Bark plus composted forest materials. I would say that it is half really small particles and half good bark. It looks almost like soil right out of the bag but after I sift it to remove a lot of the small particles it looks pretty good. Almost no pieces that are too big, and not too much sapwood that I found. I am thinking it is probably the best option that I have. However, it takes forever to sift!!! I am about 2/3 way through the bag right now and I have spent about 8 hours on the sifting. It's killing me. There is no way that I can sift through a bag of this again. And I think that by the end of this bag there will only be enough for 2 of my trees. (I need to pot 4-5) Do you think it should be mixed with the bark above this which is made of bigger materials? Here is a picture of it after sifting.

Then I have all of the tiny pieces and particles that came off during the sifting process. They may be able to be substituted for the peat moss I believe? Or is the moss better?

I am thinking that maybe I can mix like 4 parts of the sifted bark in the second picture with 2 parts of the unsifted bark (not pictured.) Then I would only have the perlite and lime left to add in, which brings me to my next question. Should I try to substitute in Napa Floor Dry or Ultra Dri (yes I bought both after reading about them on the forums) for the perlite to help with water retention? I have read about people subbing in DE for the peat moss, which I could do if I used all sifted bark, thought I think that would end up like more of a gritty mix. Or I could sub it in for the perlite to aid in water retention since we are in the desert... I have already been needing to water some of my trees every day (and they are in super thick nursery soil.)

THANK YOU for any advice you may have. I don't know why I am so petrified to take the next step and mix. I am terrified of doing something wrong, and I have spent so much money on these plants and all of the supplies that I just want to do things right. It will be a very costly mistake if I fail!

To end on a happy note, this beautiful butterfly found my Meyer Lemon today. I love all of the new bees and butterflies who have been coming around! And the smell of the trees in bloom is so amazing!

Thank you so very very much Mikerno! I needed to hear that! I checked lowes today (the last possible place in town that could have a more suitable bark) but they had nothing :( so these ingredients are really my only option for bark.

I think I will mix a little of the top with the middle picture (in my last post) maybe like 1 part of the top to 2-3 of the screened soil pep. I can use that mixture for my "5" then maybe I will do one part DE, one part perlite and 1/2 part peat... I feel like a mad scientist. But I think I am ready to take the plunge. I will keep you updated. One question regarding the garden lime - should I add it in the same ratio as the original 511, or should I adjust it because of the addition of DE? I have a really hard time understanding the pH levels. And I am planning to add Osmocote plus as well. And the foliage pro comes in the mail tomorrow. Hoping that I will have some very happy plants! Thank you so much!

Mike, my husband wouldn't come out so I could get a picture without him in it, lol. I haven't seen the Fafard mix anywhere. I am glad you mentioned landscape supply companies, I don't know why I hadn't really thought to call the ones in town (there aren't many but a couple of them might have something that could be used!) I did check the nurseries plus lowes, Home Depot, Walmart and Kmart. I called and left messages for 2 of the landscape supply places so hopefully they will get back to me tomorrow. I thought about repti bark as well but I assumed that it was supposed to be used for the gritty 1:1:1 and not really the 5:1:1. But if it would save me from more sifting I would be all for it!

I already have peat (and perlite and floor dry and ultrasorb, and a whole bunch of other things like small bark nuggets - which are too big!) so I am just about ready to make the mix. Might wait until I get a call back from the landscape supply stores. I will definitely show you a picture of the mix before I re pot. Hoping to get the plants in their new homes by the weekend! Thank you so much again for all of your input, it is building my confidence so that I will be able to take the plunge and mix! Take care and watch for a mix picture coming soon!

Emily..No problem..I hear you about having all kinds of ingredients..lol Like baking a cake with all different flavors..

Listen, the repti bark can cut down on your amount of bark you use from sifting by using half and half...I always use about 3 part of sifted bark and 2 parts Repti bark..It makes a GREAT mix, in fact my best..I LOVE this above all others I make. I use this mix for my best plants.. This is my best choice!

3 parts Composted Bark, 2 parts repti bark, one part peat, or Turface, or DE, or Pumice and one part perlite, sifted, and a tablespoon of lime..You will love it!

Have a wonderful night!

Thank you Mike, again! Wonderful advice! I am going to make your mix! It makes sense to me and if you have had success with it, that's good enough for me :) I think I will do it with DE and possibly just a tiny bit of peat if I need it as a binder. And a tbsp of Osmocote plus?

I have heard that you should buy the repti bark in small bags (4 qt) because the pieces are smaller. Have you found this to be true? The prices on amazon are pretty decent, so I might order some from there and use 2 day shipping to get it here quick. It is cheaper there than at pet smart. I will need enough soil to fill 4 or 5 containers that are 13", I think about 7 gal each. How much repti bark do you think I will need? I would rather not over buy since it is more expensive than the other elements. Thank you so much!

Mike and anyone else who may be interested - I posted in the container forum again (since I already have 2 posts going on in this forum) and put up a pic of my partially assembled mix. If any of you have opinions, I am all ears! Thank you!

The new post with a pic of my medium so far