Greenjeans, I was composing my last message when you posted your last one, so didn't see it 'til now. LOL - you finally got me to get out a pencil and paper and do my best to sketch out your situation! Just for the sake of comparison, my back yard is about 4,000 square feet and is due north of our home, our side yards, too, are unusable: 10 feet on one side (driveway) and 7 on the other. There are a LOT of trees here, on my neighbors' properties too. Very limiting. Along the west side, in the only really sunny spot, is a little vegetable garden - 8x16 feet - and I try to keep it as attractive as it is productive. Behind it, there's a 10x12 storage shed (whose days are numbered, as it's sitting on some valuable sunny land.) Over by the east property line is what I've been advised is an "advanced water garden" about 14'x16' (true koi ponds don't have shelves, plants, etc.), with a bog garden, waterfall, landscaping and sitting area; nearby is a gazebo. My greenhouse is tucked between the shed and the AWG. (At the right time in the late afternoon, reflected sunlight from the water dances on the greenhouse walls.) There are flower beds and borders all around. Briefly: I understand your constraints. Although our style is definitely not manicured ... just wouldn't fit in the woodsy atmosphere here. What about the southwest corner - no room there? This is just me, but I'd take out the maple. In my experience I've found them to be very shallow rooted and cast deep shade - both of which make it difficult to grow anything beneath them. Many varieties are also prone to root girdling. There are many types of trees that are hardy, deeper rooted, and will cast a more forgiving dappled shade. The sloped contour of the land to the north/northwest alone should not be a problem. I think it is MilwaukeeDave who built his greenhouse on a slope ... built up a foundation (knee wall if you will) to level the structure. This could easily be decorative or camouflaged. However ... the northwest exposure might be an issue and I don't have enough experience to address that one. Though I think the bottom line is how many hours of sunlight would it get during the season(s) you intend to use it heavily, and is there any protection from cold, heavy winds. Best of luck to you. The planning and deciding is the toughest part ... which is why I sometimes (just sometimes) just follow my heart, plunge ahead, and work it out as I go. Di

I have heard of both square foot gardening and straw bale gardening. I'm leaning more toward sheet mulch gardening, which is essentially the same as lasagna gardening. lasagna gardening offfers the advantages of both straw bale AND square foot gardening, in that you simply layer your organic materials (a little more work than simply cutting holes in straw bales and planting in that, but less work and less traumatic impact on the existing soil biota than tilling and amending as recommended in square foot gardening. Also, like square foot gardening, you can plant quite intensively in a sheet mulch bed, nearly as intensively as in a square foot garden. So, my 1200 square feet of planned sheet mulch beds will be the equivalent of around 2500-3000 square feet of traditional tilled beds, and, when you consider the row spacing needed in a traditional garden, add around 400 square feet more for comparison sake. Trust me, with all the winter sowing I am doing in the next month, I will need every square inch of space! Mark-

Rick and Liz, good morning. Working night shift this week and I'm just getting going good. Just FYI: I'm participating on another garden site (www.davesgarden.com) and there is a great discussion going on there about straw bale gardening, if you're interested. This particular site is probably going to be the one I spend most of my time due to time constraints. So, feel free to email me at kent.rogers@eartlink.net if I end up neglecting this site. I essentially posted the text of the Carolina Country article I mentioned here to get the forum started and it has really taken off. Lot's of good ideas, especially from the organic-side crowd. Lots of PHOTOS, too. (Not sure how to put pics here. Mine on my computer don't have a URL link.) If no ammonium nitrate, then just let your bales weather longer, say at least 2 - 3 weeks. The nitrate just speeds things up. Check the bales as you're watering them and they'll heat up initially and then cool back down. Wait until the "cooking" is done before transplanting. Then fertilize as needed based on your experience, discretion, etc. The main thing is to keep those bales watered; twice a day preferrably. It's not a big job. There's NO weeds in bales, usually. The bales will sprout some wheat or oat grass but that's no problem. I just give my bales a "haircut" with a steak knife. Takes no time. The banana peels and diapers in the bale idea is interesting. Cow and chicken manure is about the only organic fertilizer I was raised up using. My daddy was a big user of 10-10-10! Have a blessed day, Kent

Since we live a typical middle-class American lifestyle; many changes will be necessary to move to a permaculture status. In fact, I doubt that we ever reach pure status; but I feel that whatever we do will certainly be an improvement over how we live now. Every little bit helps! The first thing I plan to do is to hope that the library can track down some books on permaculture so I know a bit more about what I'm doing! Now that I've pled ignorance, please forgive me if I don't have the following zones correct. Zone 0: I plan to place a worm bin under the kitchen sink within the next few days, for the its and bits of daily swill. Still need to locate and copy a list of dos and don'ts for what I can feed the little critters. Major scraps from food processing still go to the rabbit, chickens, dog and cat. In an attempt to wean my family away from indiscriminate use of paper products, I placed a chart showing the per unit cost of each item on a kitchen cabinet: paper napkins at .2 cents each, plates at 2 1/2 cents, paper towels at 2 cents and cups at a whoppping 3 cents each! I didn't include toilet tissue, as I, myself, am not willing to part with it at this time! I also still purchase kleenex for cold season. The men have hankies for normal use. I'm blessed with no allergies, so I don't seem to require one. I have stopped puchasing napkins, plates and cups (except for a secret stash of cups for communicable illnesses). I placed a basket of cloth napkins on the kitchen table; and a small container under the sink to hold soiled ones (If they have to walk to a hamper, they won't use them). I am replacing the paper towel holder in the kitchen with a towel dispenser that dispenses brown kraft paper towels. Baby steps are necessary with this crew! I'm hoping that they won't like them, and will therefore use less of them - aversion therapy, if you will! My Pop is accustomed to using a paper towel as a placemat when he eats; so I have purchased a dozen placemats for table use; and will sew more placemats and napkins this winter as time allows. I already use cloth feminine hygiene articles, but will probably purchase a "Keeper" for use at work; as storage and transport of soiled napkins is difficult at this time - I need to find an opaque, washable, waterproof, sealable bag. I already start my seeds for transplants inside in recycled plug trays; transplanting them in to newspaper pots as they outgrow the plug stage. In the shed, there is a bag of whole oats that was purchased by mistake; chickens don't seem interested in it in it's current form, so I think that I will scrounge a flat somewhere and try sprouting them and feeding them that way. I'll wait until the natural greens disappear, so that they are hungry for some greens - maybe they'll accept them a bit better that way. I'm hoping to talk my Auntie into selling me one of her three wringer washers, so that I can be a bit more careful with my water use; and be able to use the grey water for plant watering and toilet flushing. Low flow shower heads with shut-offs at the head are already installed. Compact florescent bulbs are on the list for purchase as we use up our current stash of bulbs. I purchased a featherbed for Pop's Christmas gift this year; he suffers from arthritis, so I hope this will allow him to rest more comfortably, and allow us to use less fuel for heat. Zone 1: I'm still trying to talk my husband into parting with the funds to build a cistern. Our well water is horrible, requiring multiple filters and machines to make it fit to use at all - and we still can't drink it or wash most of our laundry at home. At 120' deep, it is also inaccessable during power outages. We have a large shed (30X120) with a metal roof to use as a catch area. By studying and compiling information from rainfall data charts for this area from the past 10 years; I have concluded that we could easily support a 20,000 gallon cistern; but that a 10,000 gallon one should be sufficient for our needs. I currently have a 250 gallon tank set up under just one of the six downspouts on the shed; it fills rapidly with the most minimal rain, and overflows with anything beyond that. I used it for watering the animals and some garden watering this past year. The garden will be increased in size once again - for a description of my garden, please see the Square Foot Gardening forum: Tell me about your square foot garden! The front section of my garden will be planted with some herbs, to add to the few varieties I currently have growing. I plan to add more open-pollinated veggie varieties; and to reduce the number of varieties I grow in favor of doing more seed saving in the future. I also plan to use more vertical gardening than in the past to maximize my space. The garden currently provides the majority of our fresh vegetables for 6 months of the year; and nearly all of our canned and frozen veggies as well. Since the garden is on the other side of the house from the shed (better soil, better sun); I plan to place a large 200 gallon plastic tank that I already have on a trailor; filling it from the tank under the downspout, and transporting the water to the garden in that manner. This will allow me to double my water storage, and have it more conveniently located as well. I can also use it to haul water from town in a worst case scenario. Somewhere in this region (I'll be working on the garden expansion and other plans this winter) will be added a fire pit and permanant benches; and possibly some sort of shelter in the future. Zone 2: I hope to add 16 dwarf fruit trees to the mix this next spring, so that we may provide the majority of our fruits as well. I'd like to find a good seedless grape to grow in this area to dry for raisins. These will be in a quasi zone 1 area because.... For eggs, I hope to place a permanent chicken structure/shed for small garden tools in the planned orchard; convenient to the gardens as well for ease in feeding excess or undesirable produce, and for allowing selective grazing of garden beds. I am considering switching from heavy breed chickens for my eggs to banties, as they seem to have fewer health problems, reproduce more readily and are better at foraging; thus requiring a minimal amount of outside inputs. We will purchase broiler chicks from a local hatchery; 25 chicks, twice a year. These will be rotationally pastured, following the cattle (see below) and supplemented with a purchased broiler feed until we are able to provide our own ration. We are lucky to have a local poultry processor (Amish); so we will not be required to process them ourselves. I can process them myself. I don't want to. I probably wouldn't raise them if I had to butcher them, so this is an acceptable compromise for us. Baby steps! If I could find a local processor for rabbit, I would halve the amount of broilers, replacing them with rabbit; selectively breeding them for harvest; and maintaining only breeding stock during the heat of the summer. Our plan is to purchase a couple of "bucket calves" from the Amish this spring; or possibly one in spring and one in early fall. This will provide beef for us and for our extended families. At the present time, since both my husband and I work outside the home, we will purchase milk replacer to feed until the calves are able to graze. When my husband retires (3-5 years) we will probably use a milk goat for this purpose. We do not consume enough dairy products to justify a milk cow. The cattle will be rotationally grazed year round; supplemented in the winter with corn and other grains grown on the farm. Zone 3: We have about 9 acres tillable fields that will be put in rotation for local use crops. Some will be enclosed with solar charged temporary electric fencing and grazed during the winter months. A 2 acre area is next to the garden and is used for several crops. The planned orchard and chicken house will encroach into this area. We currently have about 1/4 acre or so of strawberries, which we used to sell locally, but now mostly trade or give away - this year's trades included flower and garden seed, produce, fish and lots of good company! 1/8 acre of asparagus is also in this area. The remainder of this area is used for 1/2 to 1 acre of sweet corn (which will be fed to the cattle after we harvest what we need for fresh and processed use), melons and pumpkins; with the balance being planted in sunflowers for the wild birds to eat; and for me to enjoy looking at (sunnys AND birds!) Crops are shared with family and friends; excess produce of good quality is donated to a food bank; the rest is fed to the animals. We have planted a 4 to 5 acre or so area to wheat this fall, some of which will be retained on farm for feed/flour/seed; the balance to be sold locally. The wheat crop will be followed by hay; which we will bale in small square bales and use to supplement winter grazing. Any excess will be sold or traded to local smallholders who can not raise their own. The wheat straw will be baled and used as animal bedding and mulches, before being composted. The last field will be planted to open pollinated corn, to be used for feed/flour. I doubt that we will have any excess to sell off farm; but if we do, it will probably be sold as ear corn locally. Our compost piles will also be included in zone three; between the worms, chickens, rabbit and pets, I do not generate enough household compostables to support a nearby pile. I currently pick up grass trimmings and leaves in my MIL's neighborhood on my way home from work; and there are several horse owners nearby who are overjoyed when I pull in with my pick-up to relieve them of a load. I can also haul truckloads of manure mixed with sawdust home from the local sale barn. Life is getting easier, as my husband just gifted me with the best birthday present ever: a 1964 1 ton truck with hydraulic grain bed and stock rails - I may still have to shovel it in sometimes, but I'll be able to just dump it out! Zone 4: We currently have a red and white pine windbreak on the west property line; and approximately 19 acres of timber surrounding us on the north and east. We hope to expand our walking paths through this area, adding log benches here and there (darned asthma!) We harvest a small amount of downed trees for firewood, and also will cut diseased trees for the same purpose. We also harvest morel mushrooms, blackberries and nuts in this area; as well as an occasional deer harvested by relatives. A friend is attempting to re-establish ginsing in this area as well. Shade and other trees are transplanted occasionally from this area as well. Zone 5: The federal governemnt used eminent domain to condemn and confiscate a large portion of our land (and our neighbor's land as well) back in the 60's to construct a huge recreational/flood control lake. Those of us with fishing licenses set out a trot line a couple of times a year to catch fish (and an occasional turtle) which we use fresh or freeze. Deer are harvested from the legal to hunt areas as well. We will travel by foot back to an inlet of the lake to observe a beaver dam occasionally; otherwise this area is unused - at least by us. We do carry bags along to pick up the trash that other's have scattered. These are all of the things that I can think of at this time. Any suggestions will be appreciated!