Why don't you get the all-gas Wolf 48" range? It does not have the chipping issues. Also, because an all-gas range has fewer electronics, there is less to break. And they are less expensive. Especially since you are also getting a separate wall oven, you will have an electric oven if the reason you are choosing a dual fuel is to have an electric oven. It seems to me, that getting the all-gas Wolf range solves all of your issues.

Re your 25-year-old Kitchenaid, unfortunately, they aren't making them the way they used to.

I'm not sure that the M design will help the DF range. From what I have read and in my case, the chipping is over the element more instead of in the corners as in the wall ovens. I don't think it is stress but failure of the substrate in holding the enamel. It also takes longer to develop so recent owners would not have that issue yet. I was very happy with my range for 4.5 years and had highly recommended it on this forum at the time. I'm sure you have read how they "helped" me. You will have to negotiate to get any "help" so what people get varies a lot. They are well aware that their level of "help" would be made known on this forum.

I have had blue enamel issues with three brands.

Dacor -fixed under warranty, bought the appliances back. No recent issues reported.

Electrolux -replaced initial oven under warranty, fixed the second one that also failed at 4.5 years under extended warranty provided by the vendor at a fixed cost, can't remember if it was $430 or $530 but it was paid by the vendor even though they had closed up in our area. No recent issues reported.

Wolf-I was told when I bought the Wolf (bought at same place as ELux)that I would not need an extended warranty because Wolf would always stand behind their products. I think back then they did as they replaced someone's double oven at 4.5 years on this forum. They no longer do this. You can only get it repaired through their people so you are stuck paying whatever they want to charge and then the new part is only guaranteed for a year. Yes they will "help" you but it will cost. Some people, even under warranty are made to pay ($500)for an "upgrade" when their ovens are traded out. Ongoing issues. The sad thing is that they continue to sell the other wall oven and ranges knowing they have that issue. I read that the new M ovens were tested for two years and then released which coincidently is the term of the warranty.

Edit. I would love to replace my range but can't find any DF I have confidence in.

I would strongly suggest you do a thorough Google search on the Wolf porcelain chipping issue. It has been alive and well.

Hkwan...I second ak0402 recommendation to purchase the Wolf all gas range (I mentioned this before on one of your other posts). If my memory serves me correctly, you would need to purchase the propane kit as you don't have gas piped to your home. It makes the most sense since you are going to purchase an electric wall oven. Since you are planning to purchase an electric wall oven, why do you also want a dual fuel? Just curious....

Has Thermador had an issue with their porcelain? I don't remember hearing anything, and they make a 48" range with a built in steam oven. :)

I love baking and cooking-since I only can get 1 electric wall oven and a steamer oven, I would love having all of my oven in electric. Beside that more options having a DF than gas. I get so confused. I guess I just have to make up my decision soon. When I spoke with Lisa, she said all other brands would face this porcelain issue, they will stay behind their brands eventhough I stress it to her that the customer should not need to face this problem at all after paying a fortune-just not the right thing to do so.

Does anyone knows if WOLF-GAS Oven is good for baking? The reason I open this discussion again because I need to find out if anyone bought a recent model of Wolf DF range -has the same issue?

I don't like the looks of the burners in Thermador but I do love the Miele's Any input for Miele's products or their customer service?

I have to do my search for my Wall oven's other brand such as KA, Bosch?

You didn't mention the capital open burner dual fuel, especially if you would consider a Bluestar if they made a DF. That gives you major burners and a sophisticated electric oven(s). Have had a Wolf AG range for over ten years so they may have been changed, oven is even and once preheated maintains an even temp, but is slightly uneven so pans have to be rotated. Have a capital DF but haven't used the oven enough to comment. So far it's impressive. Capital ovens have an excellent reputation.

I've baked successfully in a crappy old half dead unfancy gas oven that couldn't be set to any particular temperature and had dizzyingly disparate hot and cool spots. A good quality gas oven in full working order will bake just fine. Like with any oven, you have to learn the quirks and adapt. You have to learn the timing, and whether the food needs to be turned, and things like that. The new gas ovens are supposed to be wonderfully superior things. If you're at all interested, why don't you find a showroom where one is installed so you can try it out? If they don't have one, maybe they can set you up with a customer who will let you come play.

For anyone considering the Capital Connoisseurian, I would carefully consider how it works, which is different than most other ovens and make sure it fits the way you cook. It has an oscillating element that in theory keeps a very narrow temperature range. If that program of oscillating the element is stressed by opening and closing the door as in baking cookies, peeking or adding a load of cold food, it has no way to kick on the preheat to make up for the heat loss until the temperature drops by at least 150F. The temperature can slowly drift down. Most ovens will kick on the preheat/bake element when the temperature drops by 25 degrees or less and recover the oven. The 150F degree differential required is a protective mechanism because the CC preheat is intense and can burn your food. If you turn the temperature up, it must be by 150F in order for the preheat to come on and reach that temperature rapidly other wise, it will just drift up if you keep the door closed, maybe. It also does not seem to have a variable convection fan speed which would be high for roasting and lower for baking which many if not most with computerized cooking modes have.

From multiple places in their user guide.

"IMPORTANT:
If the oven door is left open for a period of time while cooking or the
temperature setting is increased by 150° or more, the oven will go into a
rapid recovery mode. This is the same heating as PRE HEAT and uses
intense heat from the BROIL, BAKE, and CONVECTION Elements as well as
the Convection Fan to heat the oven quickly. This may cause foods to
burn."
"Open the oven door only when required! Opening the door allows heat to escape and requires the oven to recover which
can affect cooking. Check food by using the oven light and viewing through the door glass whenever possible"

This would probably work for some who don't need to open the door much but the oven has to be fully preheated and stabilized and follow the instructions in the manual about not opening the door. I bake a lot so I am sometimes opening the doors every 5-10 minutes or so. We also do a lot of parties with trays of appetizers.

wekick.......When i did the test on this (due to another thread) it took about 4-5 minutes of the door to be fully before the after burner so to speak cut in. Thats open continuously for 4-5 mins not opening the door to check something or take some cookies out and put more in.

Anyone who leaves the door open for 4-5 mins would want the oven to get back to temp asap.

This is a non issue unless you screw up and leave the oven door fully open for a crazy lenght of time.

This is the answer I received from the factory due to the last thread.

There are two sides to this question and the complaints for each is shown below:

1. COMPLAINT: My oven doesn’t recover quickly when I reset the temperature to a higher setting (+150° F) or leave the door open for overly extended periods of time and takes too long to regain the set temperature.

a. SETTING: No quick recovery. Oven will cycle normally despite large temperature drops due to the door being left open, or the oven set temperature being reset to a much higher temperature. The recovery time can be very long for large differentials between oven temp and set temp.

1. COMPLAINT: My oven goes into a quick recovery mode when I reset the temperature (+150° F) or <b>leave the door open for excessive periods of time</b>, and burns my food.

a. SETTING: Quick recovery is set. Oven will go into PRE-HEAT mode if the difference between the oven temp and set temp is 150° or more. This reduces recovery time if the door is left open or if the set temp is increased.

My experience has led us to follow number 2 above. Other manufacturers also follow the same logic. We do not have a graphical display that allows the elements ON to be shown but it will show PRE again if the oven is recovering. It has been my experience that the majority of cooks will not leave the door open for more than 30 secs - 1 min at a time to consciously preserve heat. This can drop the oven temperature 100° F but rarely more. People who reset the oven temperature to a higher setting have rarely complained about the pre-heat.

If the oven has been properly pre-heated, the temperature is very quickly recovered through the residual heat of the oven walls and door. If the heat loss or temperature reset is done immediately after the pre-heat tone sounds then the recovery will take longer.

Finally, when the oven pre-heats, the majority of heating is performed by the hidden convection element with the convection fan ON. This prevents burning that might occur if the upper or lower elements were used as the primary elements in the pre-heat process but still heats quickly and evenly.

"trevorlawson

This is the answer I received from the factory due to the last thread.There are two sides to this question and the complaints for each is shown below:

1. COMPLAINT: My oven doesn’t recover quickly when I reset the
   temperature to a higher setting (+150° F) or leave the door open for
   overly extended periods of time and takes too long to regain the set
   temperature.

a. SETTING: No quick recovery. Oven will cycle normally despite large
temperature drops due to the door being left open, or the oven set
temperature being reset to a much higher temperature. The recovery time
can be very long for large differentials between oven temp and set temp.

1. COMPLAINT: My oven goes into a quick recovery mode when I reset the
   temperature (+150° F) or <b>leave the door open for excessive
   periods of time</b>, and burns my food.

a. SETTING: Quick recovery is set. Oven will go into PRE-HEAT mode if
the difference between the oven temp and set temp is 150° or more. This
reduces recovery time if the door is left open or if the set temp is
increased."
_______

That is exactly what I am saying. I think you are missing my point.

The problem is not leaving the door open for 5 minutes at a time.

The problem is not directly the preheat coming on and being too hot.

The problem is that heat does not come on with heat loss, that happens in the way many use their oven in a legitimate, not "screwing up" way.

You mention one of these ways in your own post-

"It has been my experience that the majority of cooks will not leave the
door open for more than 30 secs - 1 min at a time to consciously
preserve heat. This can drop the oven temperature 100° F but rarely more."

The problem is that opening the door for a short time, multiple times leads to a cumulative heat loss and I am thinking in terms of 10-15 seconds and a 50F drop each time every 5 minutes or so. A 10-20F drop for peeking. Maybe I am the only one that cooks this way. Everything "from the factory:" confirms what I am saying -from your note above to the use and care guide.. It requires a
150F differential in temperature in order to trigger the rapid recovery or preheat or any departure from the element oscillating on and off for short periods of time. A 100F drop mentioned above will not. Your oven can drift down for many reasons and be 250F when set at 350F. You might put a big ham in that is cold. It will be the same if you put a load of frozen food in. Something like enameled cast iron will absorb a lot of heat.

"If the oven has been properly pre-heated, the temperature is very
quickly recovered through the residual heat of the oven walls and door. "

I mentioned that before but that will only work for a time or two of opening the door. The amount of heat in the structure of the oven is limited and when lost is only replaced by heat from the oven which is a lower temperature as the heat is depleted.

"My experience has led us to follow number 2 above. "

What do you mean "follow number 2"?

"Other manufacturers also follow the same logic."

"Logic"?

Well, yes there are a few that use that type of programming to heat ovens. That is why it is important to understand how your oven will work and if that will work with the way you cook. If it will work, great, but it is always good to make an informed decision. At least Capital states the way the oven works. Most ovens still work based on a thermostat and kick on the bake element to recover the oven at a 25F heat loss or well before a drop of 150F. Some have a rapid preheat that is op-tion-al.

"People who reset the oven temperature to a higher setting have rarely complained about the pre-heat."

I am surprised that you have gotten any complaints. Most people would have no idea that the temperature hasn't changed. Most people assume the oven will react quickly to changing the setting because most ovens do that. Just because few have complained, does not change the way the oven works.

"Finally, when the oven pre-heats, the majority of heating is
performed by the hidden convection element with the convection fan ON.
This prevents burning that might occur if the upper or lower elements
were used as the primary elements in the pre-heat process but still
heats quickly and evenly."

That is not what the use and care manual says but intense preheating is only a minor concern.

But that brings up a question.

If the heat is not so intense, why is the 150F differential necessary as a protective mechanism?

All i did was to ask the question and gave the answer.

I am only a messenger here.

My point is that we have 3 ovens in the cooking school what work this way and it has NEVER been an issue.

IMO...... mountain out of a mole hill

What was the question you asked?

Only a messenger? You have a vested interest in how this oven sells.

"IMO...... mountain out of a mole hill"

Yep. I would expect that.

wekick, without actually owning and using the oven, I don't think you can draw the conclusion that you have. I also think there is confusion about what preheat mode on any oven actually is. You said in an earlier post that most ovens will go into a preheat mode after a small drop in temperature (25 degrees or so). This is not the case. On most ovens, preheat mode comes on exactly when you'd think - only when the oven is preheating. Not when it is just trying to maintain temperature. Preheat mode on ANY oven (not just Capital's) is intensive and has the potential to burn food, so it only comes on when there is not supposed to be any food in the oven. From the user guide and factory info, the only thing that it looks like Capital does differently is engage preheat after a severe drop in temperature (which shouldn't happen in normal oven use, as Trevor's testing indicates).

You say "The problem is that heat does not come on with heat loss, that happens in the way many use their oven in a legitimate, not "screwing up" way." I see nothing in the user guide that even implies that. I can't find any evidence that just because the CC engages preheat after a large drop in temperature, it will also have issues maintaining the set temperature without preheat mode. My Electrolux and KitchenAid ovens NEVER engage preheat mode once the oven is heated up and neither have any issues maintaining temperature.

I know that you had a Dacor oven with issues maintaining temperature, but I don't think you can assume that just because the CC oven sounds like that oven, it will actually work like that oven.

Sorry hvtech I did not see this post but will
answer now. I don't think that there is any disagreement
about how the oven works but rather if this is going to impact the way you use your oven.

"without actually owning and using the oven, I don't
think you can draw the conclusion that you have"

Capital is very specific about how it works. I merely point out what they have written. What specific conclusion do you disagree with?

"I also think there is confusion about what preheat
mode on any oven actually is. You said in an earlier post that most ovens will
go into a preheat mode after a small drop in temperature (25 degrees or so).
This is not the case. On most ovens, preheat mode comes on exactly when you'd
think - only when the oven is preheating. Not when it is just trying to
maintain temperature."

The point is not what you are calling the heating cycle, but the fact
that it exists, and is responsive to the thermostat which keeps the temperature tightly
controlled. Some people use the word loosely to mean whenever the
elements come on. For a long time the preheat was the bake element
coming on and this was indicated by a little red light. The same red
light came on when the bake element came back on to maintain the
temperature. Now you have the possibility with some ovens of more
elements coming on during preheat and a little light that says
"preheating" during that time and the little light may or may not come
back on after that. To be more specific, you can call it "preheat" when
the elements in the oven are on until it
reaches temperature and call it "recovery" when the elements come back
on to maintain the temperature. For either, it is the heat coming
on when the oven temperature is more than 25F (or whatever defines the
thermostat's parameter) from the set temperature to allow a rapid return
to the set temp. Every oven I have ever had, probably 15 or so have operated this way- controlled by the thermostat -except one.

In
some ovens, like Capital electric ovens, the heating is done in a
totally different way. The preheat comes on and heats the oven to temp
and then a computer program takes over and turns the element on and off
rapidly according to "logic" mentioned by Trevor above. It does not
know if the oven door is open or a large amount of cold food has entered
the oven cavity. It just keeps oscillating blissfully at the same rate
unaware of the new burden it has received. The thermostat does not
come into play for a long time because it is set so that there has to be
a 150F differential, according to the manual, quoted above and
confirmed by the notes from the factory.

" Preheat mode on ANY oven (not just Capital's) is intensive and has the
potential to burn food, so it only comes on when there is not supposed
to be any food in the oven."

I would not say
"ANY" oven. They are all very different, especially electric ovens.
The preheat can potentially cause anything from almost nothing to
browning to burning depending on how the oven is designed and the food
you putting in it. There are some ovens that allow you to put food in
the oven and then set a time for it to start cooking. This is very
common actually and there are some ovens that advertise no need to
preheat. I would not bake a cake in them but you can bake something
like a casserole. The preheat is not as intense in those ovens. Ovens
that might be more intense would be those that use convection or
a combination of elements to rapidly preheat but even this varies
widely.

" From the user guide and factory info, the only thing that it looks like
Capital does differently is engage preheat after a severe drop in
temperature (which shouldn't happen in normal oven use, as Trevor's
testing indicates)."

----->Please define "normal use"<-----

" I can't find any evidence that just because the CC engages preheat
after a large drop in temperature, it will also have issues maintaining
the set temperature without preheat mode."

Capital spells it out for you. "No quick recovery. Oven will cycle normally despite large
temperature drops due to the door being left open, or the oven set
temperature being reset to a much higher temperature. The recovery time
can be very long for large differentials between oven temp and set temp."

In
real cooking, you loose heat under certain circumstances. Open the door
a few times and you are baking 100F below the set temp with no ability
to recover. Another major point. It will not allow the temperature to
be reset
higher in a timely way unless you open the oven and induce the 150F
degree differential and then you would have to take the food out while
the temp goes up.

"My Electrolux and KitchenAid ovens NEVER engage preheat mode once the
oven is heated up and neither have any issues maintaining temperature."

The
little light that says "preheat" may not be on but my Elux is still
rotating through the same elements as when it preheats . they cycle on
and off according to need. The only difference is that the convection
fan does not come on in bake mode or run high speed in the bake
convection mode. Mine has a little picture showing which element is on
and when. Whatever name tag you give this ability, this same
mechanism does not exist in Capital Electric ovens according to their
literature.

Make of it what you will.

"I know that you had a Dacor oven with issues maintaining temperature,
but I don't think you can assume that just because the CC oven sounds
like that oven, it will actually work like that oven."

HaHa, that oven was what made me study ovens. I am not going by my oven at all, but again what Capital has written themselves. This is why it pays to read use and care manuals.

I've had no issues with opening the door on my connoisseurian to baste something or stir potatoes and have that fan kick into "over drive"

I've been able to lower during baking, and increase during with no issues

Honestly, I have not even seen one in person, so not sure about this debate... just wanted to add.. the cheapo stoves I am used to never let you adjust the temperatures on the oven unless you turned it off and then back on.. soo.. looking forward to MY Capital stove.. heh

Russ