I was at HD today and noticed some other potting mix with pine bark fine. I think it is called "Potting soil for outdoor containers". Not MG tho. I didnot bother to read the ingredients but it Looked good.

Seysonn

I like my Fafard 52 mix. It's got a high percentage of pine bark. I also like ProMix BX.

I looked there last year. The HD by me didn't have any pine bark fines, but said they could order it for me.......for $9.99/8 qt bag (roughly 2 gallons), which turned out to be ridiculous after I found some at a local nursery for $5.50/2 cubic ft bag (almost 15 gallons).

The issue I've found with those "pine fines" in those HD mixes is that they're extremely fine/ground/aged/composted. The majority of the bark is indistinguishable from the peat and compost components.

Josh

I still prefer to make my own. It still comes out to under half the price of anything else that is bagged.

From HD I buy.

Soil Conditioner (Sold here as Mother Earth brand.) $3 per 2 cubic feet. 5 bags comes out to about $16 and some change after tax.

Sphagnum Peat Moss (MG) Rough price is $10 per 2 cubic feet. 1 Bag comes to a little under $11 after tax.

Perlite (I buy this at the feed store in 2 cubic foot bags) Price is just under $25 per bag with tax included.

(If the feed store is out of perlite they have 2 cubic foot bags of coarse vermiculture. They sell it to me for the same price as the perlite.)

Hydrated horticultural lime ($5 for 5 pounds. The 20 pound bags are about $9 or so. I buy the 5 pound bags as my storage space is limited.) I use one heaping table spoon per gallon of mix.

Roughly I get a bit over 26 cubic feet of my own mix that I know what it is, and the amounts it has in it for $84 with well over 4 pounds of lime for the next time I need it. I will also add MG Shake n Feed at a rate of 2 table spoons per gallon of mix for anything that I will be planting veggies in. If I were using MG or the other brands of potting mix the price would run me well over $125 or more for the same amount of mix.

Note my containers tend to be on the very large size so it takes a lot to fill them up. My latest is 8 feet long by 18 inches high by 18 inches wide. I will be growing some peppers in it this year.

I make my own too. My cost is very close to yours, about 40 cents per gallon or roughly $3 per cu.ft. That includes dolomitic lime too. But in a hurry those stuff @ HD is not too bad. Much better than peat moss based ones. By adding a little more perlite it should be fine.

Seysonn

Hydrated Lime???!!!!! I hope not! Dolomitic Garden Lime, yes.

Josh

Hydrated lime works fine. i have used it for years. You just have to be careful with it. I actually prefer it, it works quicker.

I use , what is called "fast Acting" lime, which I think it is the same as Dolomitic lime. I have also made some Witch's Brew ( thanks to Smoke). That one is almost instantly acting, in the form of calcium acetate. I use that occasionally during the season.

Seysonn

I usually make my mixes in the fall for next season and have them ready for use. I make 20 gallon batches and use about a cup. Then store in 30 or 50 gallon trash cans. The problem with hydrated is the name is deceiving. Dolomite is also a hydrated lime and so a package labeled agricultural hydrated lime might be dolomite. I use about the same amount as any lime.

I increase calcium myself by using calcium nitrate a few times at the start of the season.. I also use some gypsum as it tends to pull everything to neutral PH. I have it on hand, when I run out, I probably will stop using it.

Amen, Josh.
Now I feel better. I have like a half a gallon of it.
You can also make with egg shells. You get the same thing, plus it can be taken as calcium supplement for yourself;
Disclaimer: Talk to your doctor :-)

Seysone

Might be good to mention all of that, Drew, before folks burn the hell out of their plants in 5-1-1. There's a reason we're very specific about ingredients, and wait-times, since the 5-1-1 can traditionally be mixed and planted the same day.

Josh

Nothing is ideal as I see you guys still are raising PH, probably because dolomite is not fully active for 6 months to a year. The witches brew sounds like a good idea. If hydrated lime was so bad they would not offer it. It is an excellent product.

I just planted my peppers today, good luck to all out there!

Hydrated Lime has its place in agriculture, but generally not in immediate container culture. Also, we've got to stay on topic - the very Thread title is about 5-1-1, and we as a gardening community don't want folks conflating different ingredients and having a bad experience. For the purposes of this Thread, Hydrated Lime and the slower-acting Dolomitic Garden Lime are not interchangeable.

Dolomitic Lime begins to activate anywhere from 2 days to 2 weeks, depending upon temperature and consistent moisture levels, and continues thereafter. In an ideal world, yes, we would make our mix at least 2 weeks in advance to allow all the ingredients to "meld."

The Calcium acetate makes a fantastic supplement.

Josh

Thanks, Josh.
Few days ago I refreshed my 2014 mixes coming out of the pots and I lightly sprinkle some Dolomitic lime and covered it. So by the time I am ready to pot up the lime should have reacted pretty good..
Another Note : I bough some more pine bark stuff the other day from Lowes. Here is how it looks

Hydrated (slaked) lime, aka calcium hydroxide, is extremely caustic and slightly soluble in water. It's often mixed with water to form a saturated solution. The supernatant is then siphoned off, leaving the excess in the bottom of the container. The saturated limewater will have a pH >12.0, so using it is no joke. The supernatant is then mixed very sparingly with additional water and used when an ACTUAL Ca deficiency has been detected.
It really doesn't make sense to use hydrated lime in place of dolomite unless the grower is able to identify how much Ca is in the soil relative to N, and to Mg. Adding a Ca source w/o knowing the amount of Mg in the soil almost always causes an issue, whether it might be high pH, Ca toxicity, or an antagonistic issue with Mg.
Also, adding gypsum doesn't tend to pull pH anywhere as gypsum tends to be neutral in pH. Adding a variety of Ca sources w/o some serious consideration given to how much Ca is actually appropriate has much greater potential to be limiting than have a positive outcome. More does not mean better when we're talking nutrition unless there is ACTUALLY a deficiency or the excess is required to avoid an antagonistic deficiency.

Keep in mind that all PBFs aren't created equal. For instance, even though Fafard (now SunGro) makes several products that work reasonably well in containers, their aged pine bark is too fine for those looking to reduce water retention and the ht of the PWT - something that pepper growers, it would seem, should be giving more than cursory attention to if they're growing in containers.

Al

What's the benefit of adding lime again beside pH?

It's a source of calcium & magnesium.

Agree. The purpose of adding lime is twofold :
1) Raise pH, since pine bark's pH is under 6.
2) 5-1-1 mix has practically zero nutrients and no essential trace elements such as Calcium and Magnesium and MOST fertilizers do not have calcium which peppers, tomatoes need. I know one that dose and it is MG's Shake N Feed for peppers and tomatoes. It come as Slow Release granular..

Seysonn

Here's some info about dolomite. It is from a master class in agriculture.

Just remember you add lime, then foliage pro, better watch what you do.

To much of a good thing can be just as bad.

----------------------------------------

High-magnesium lime Dolomite, or high-magnesium lime, can cause problems too. When dolomite is applied in too large of a quantity it can cause an excess in magnesium and have a negative effect on yields. The problem is it can be as long as three years after the excess lime has been applied before seeing the greatest amount of potential damage to the crop yields. By this time, unless the grower has kept good records, a connection between the liming and declining yields may be overlooked. (A moral here is to keep good records of when, where, how much and what type of lime each field receives.) Have you applied dolomite lime on any of your fields in the last few years? If so, count three crop years from the time of application and check the yields that year and thereafter as compared to yields prior to liming. Even if the applied magnesium from dolomite lime will have a detrimental effect, do not expect to see that yields have dropped the first year.

For example, when too much dolomite is applied to land for cotton, it can eventually cause the plant to send out two lesser roots instead of one longer taproot. These roots do not go straight down, but curve to one side instead, and have less depth than the one taproot would normally have. (If you rip and hip, this effect will not always be as evident.) It will take three years to see the full negative effects of overusing dolomitic limestone. But when overused, once those effects have come into full effect it can cost a cotton farmer about ¾ bale of cotton per acre, every year, until the problem is corrected!Excess magnesium costs money

In corn, on medium to heavy soils, a high level of magnesium (15%+) costs the farmer 10 bushels of corn per acre. Above 20% magnesium on the soil test reduces the yield by another 5+ bushels per acre. In addition, it will require more nitrogen to produce each bushel of corn every year until the problem is corrected. In legumes, taking soybeans as an example, 13-14% magnesium levels can cause 10 bushels per acre loss per year, even when all other nutrients are present in the proper amounts. Be sure what your soil really needs

Even though too much, or the wrong type of lime can cut yields, limestone should always be applied where shown to be needed. Applying the proper amount of lime in the right form

can provide far greater increases in yield than the losses that occur from misuse. Have your yields suffered in certain fields in the past few years? If so, avoid the mistake of failing to correctly check for and properly apply any lime that is needed. Just be sure that you use enough to correct the problem, but not so much that it causes problems three years from now and several years thereafter. If there is a need for lime, autumn is the best time to spread it for next Spring's crops. Do it correctly as needed and see the difference liming can make for crops over the next several years.

Seysonn - The 5:1:1 mix is no different, nutritionally speaking, than most other media that are peat-based or based on peat and 'composted forest products'. They're all pretty poor at providing nutrition to plants, but selecting a container medium shouldn't be based on what it can supply in the way of nutrition. Nutrition is monkey easy, with all nutrients deliverable from one soluble source, so make your container media decisions based on the soil's ability to supply and maintain as close to an ideal mix of air and water as possible - choose based on the soils structure and its ability to retain that structure.

The 5:1:1 mix is mostly pine bark. Pine bark's properties:

High in P and moderate amounts of K

Low in Ca, Mg, and S

Good on the micro-nutrient side, except low B and Zn

Potentially high Fe:Mn ratio

Al

Al is incorrect about gypsum, and dolomite is just as dangerous as hydrated if not careful. It's a lot easier to figure out the correct dosage of hydrated lime than waiting three years to see if you added enough dolomite. I would rather be more accurate with my usage. Not knowing proper dose if using dolomite or hydrated give the same results, except with hydrated you may be able to fix it quickly. With dolomite your low yields will tell you.

Read the paragraph about gypsum changing PH, and educate yourself.

"gypsum is able to offset some of the toxic effects of extremely acid subsoil, in some soil types. Gypsum may even increase the pH of those subsoils to some degree" - Agronomic Library

What interesting about gypsum is it can stop soils from becoming more acidic, and it also can stop soils from becoming more basic. Thus my statement it pulls the soil to neutral. It is a very useful additive. It can stop the caustic effect of hydrated lime to some extent. Yet the lime works quickly unlike dolomite which might take up to 3 years to work, or mess you up if you added too much and didn't add gypsum.

I just want to give you info, not defend my way of doing things. I could care less what you do. I'm just trying to inform people not saying my way is best. I don't have a my way. I don't have an agenda. I change my methods all the time from year to year as I learn more. As more studies come to light etc. Gardening is not static it is dynamic. Some of the stuff suggested comes from studies done in 1901! Like the Ca-Mg ratios, proven to be false btw. This place is unreal at times.

C'mon Drew. In one breath you suggest the use of hydrated lime as a Ca source with no regard for what that might bring in terms of Mg deficiency and off the chart pH increases, and in the next you suggest that overuse of dolomite can cause a problem via toxic levels of Mg. Since dolomite contains Mg, it would sort of be a "DUH!" moment if we DIDN'T suspect over use of lime might cause a Mg issue in terms of toxicity. That's what using too much of any nutrient does, and your entire premise is based on applying toxic levels of lime.

You warn about the use of dolomite AND FP 9-3-6 in combination ["Just remember you add lime, then foliage pro, better watch what you do"]. My first question is, how do you explain the excellent results hundreds (thousands?) of growers enjoy, including me, using exactly that combination, with more and more growers choosing, sticking with, and recommending that route on a regular basis?

Once again, you choose a study (?) that isn't even pertinent to the topic being discussed, and act as though it proves something. It doesn't.

BTW - I followed your link and because the following statement was in big bold print - it jumped right out at me: "The short answer is that pure gypsum will not affect the pH of the topsoil when surface applied or incorporated by typical methods." It did say that gypsum CAN have SOME impact on HIGHLY ACIDIC SUBSOILS (and the reason for that is an entirely different discussion), but since none of us (hopefully) are using highly acidic subsoils in our containers, I'd say that's another misapplication of what your article said. The article YOU linked to stresses several times in a variety of places that in normal applications, gypsum SHOULD NOT be expected to raise soil pH.

Al

I don't think anyone suggested an indiscriminate addition of Dolomitic Lime to a pepper field, Drew. We're talking about a specific container type of mix...not a three-year field operation.

Josh

I have also to say that what is the effect of one TBSP of dolomitic lime in one gallon of 5-1-1 ?

I have to go back and read the percentage of Mag. in it. I believ it is a very small percentage.

I found this by googling :

>>>>>Dolomitic lime contains less CaCO3 (<30 percent Ca) and more MgCO3 (>5 percent) than calcitic lime.<<<<<

So lets say it is 6% MgCO3. How much of it is Mg ?

Atomic weight of Mg =24.3 ; MgCO3 = 84.3 >>> %Mg = 28.8 %

28.8% of 6% = 1.73% Mg in Dolomitic lime.

Is that too much ? We apply only ONE TBSP per gallon. Lets say one TBSP of Dolomitic lime weighs 20gr. 1.73% of 20gr= 0,346 gram of Mg. per gallon of soil

I did the math but I don't know the answer.

Seysonn

Ca and Mg are mutually antagonistic, meaning too much of one can make it difficult for the plant to take up the other. Given that Mg oxidizes in water and in the presence of water vapor, the Mg component of dolomite is much more soluble than the Ca fraction, which is why the Ca:Mg ratio in soils should favor Ca by somewhere between 2:1 to 5:1 respectively.

Al

According to my rough calculations above, Mg consists of about 1.73% of DL, while Calcium is 30%. But not all of it is available at once.. I think MG's Shake-N-Feed (slow Release)has about 3% Ca..

Seysonn