Awww, not a naval guy then. I'm sure you're not surprised I would wonder about that, right?

We're not that far north. We're in the Grays Harbor area. It still feels very isolated from cities but certainly not near as isolated as Forks is. Sounds like you're due for a roadtrip around the peninsula. If you haven't been to Forks in awhile, you may want to visit while there is still all the Twilight stuff going on. Ya know, those silly books were set there and they have been having tours to places mentioned in the books and such. A lot of little shops with Twilight in the name. I think it's dying down now but they really capitalized on it for awhile. :)

It would be fun to meet up with someone else obsessed with kitchens. Whichever of us travels to the other's area first, needs to make contact so we can have a coffee klatch!

The Harbor is only a couple of hours away, right? That's not too far. I have plenty of naval in my blood. I paid my way through high school working on fishing boats up and down the coast. That was a long time ago.

Lol, Twilight. Amazing how these things snowball. My cousin went to his reunion in Forks a few years ago and I asked him what he thought. I think "Surreal" pretty much sums up his answer.

I'll be around.

Surreal IS a good way to describe it. It always makes me chuckle when we drive through there. Yeah, we are roughly 2 hours apart. Sounds like you need to make a visit to Westport to reacquaint yourself with fishing boats!

And, yes, we'll get back to lighting. I've been doing more research today and will try to write something up to share and I'm sure I'll have more questions.

Thanks for pointing me to this thread. I dont know anything about Lumens, I need to learn!! I think it's good to go with something you LOVE. If you just love one light, then make that the focus (maybe over the sink?) and then do cans (or whatever it's called) in the rest of the kitchen. It would look less cluttered I think... but then again I dont have a clue!!!

PS: We moved here a year ago from a 90 year old house overlooking the Puget Sound. It was my dream house. I miss it :) I love that area.

Hope you found it helpful, Carolyn. Oh, funny that us PNWer's are the ones concerned about lighting. Must be the rain, eh? I'm sure your home was lovely and sounds like you had an amazing view! Hope you will enjoy your new home as much.

I can't do regular cans so that's one of the things that's making this a bit tougher. I need to do flush-mount LEDs which do show a bit more than cans. And the only lights I really love, like those fun Sputnick styles, won't really work in my space. My ceiling is too low.

I spent virtually all day today reading reviews, comparing lumens, kelvin temperatures, light spreads, yada yada of different lights, assessing whether I liked their looks, and I've decided they don't make what I want. Since my ceiling is low, I think I really want a couple long, narrow lights. I found some great ones called PixiLights that are very flush and everyone who puts them in says they look more like skylights than actual lights due to how flush they are. I love everything about them but the 1x4 size I want doesn't dim. Curse them!

I'm super sick and frustrated with studying lighting. I'm really to talk to someone with expertise so I spent some time researching where to go. Seems I need to make a trip to Seattle Lighting. I think they also have a room you can go in that simulates different lighting plans. I hate driving in that traffic but it will be worth it if I get this resolved.

That's a good primer on the basics.

What does everybody think about this plan with just a flush mount above each sink area? You can see the "can" placement in the diagram below. I actually made the fixtures too big. That window is 5-feet wide and the fixtures are only 10" diameter but look about 30" in diameter below. So visualize them about 1/3 that size. Sorry. Do I still have too many clowns?

I don't know if this will help, but I read about this when doing the lighting for my shop for woodworking. You don't want 1 light shining directly down over your task area because as soon as you move off center, you start getting shadows, and if you tilt your head down it casts a shadow directly on what you are working on. It's better to have lights off to each side and well in front of you in each task area to eliminate these shadows. It's very subtle but it makes quite a difference when working with smooth surfaces and fine lines and tight tolerances.

OK, rmtdoug, but how do you do that when you will be using the whole space from and including the sink to the range? That's why I wish the 1x4 LED puf was dimmable so the light would go across the entire surface. I've looked all over for dimmable long ones and have not been successful yet. Do my lights then need to be closer to the wall so I can't lean over enough to block the light?

We're such DIY-people that it's hard for me to pay for a consult but I'm beginning to think it would be worth it. It's just good to know enough about the issue to know what to ask and assess if the consultant knows what he/she is talking about. Ya know, like a KD who encourages cabinets on the bottom instead of drawers, lol.

I am now following you. If you follow me back, we can message each other privately. Easier to set up a meet up that way if/when either of us ends up in the other's neighborhood.

Hey, rmtdoug, I see you followed me as I'm following you so I went to send you a private message as a test to see how this works here. I think there's supposed to be a message button on our profile for someone to message you. There isn't one there. You have to enable it under your advanced settings in your profile. Oh, this is so confusing.

"Do my lights then need to be closer to the wall so I can't lean over enough to block the light?"

That's the problem in kitchens, isn't it? Uppers get in the way, but then you can use UCL's.

Your peninsula is a good example of what I am talking about. There are enough lights to each side wherever you stand and moving those lights further to the back of the counter would help even more.

The UCL's on the short counter solve any task lighting issues there.

For the lights on the range wall, you have a light directly over the sink/range prep area and the light to the left of the range might be blocked by the hood, although the 1800 lumens over the sink would be pretty blinding :) That might be all you need.

This has been a good thread. I now have an idea that when I am ready to wire my kitchen of getting a small 24" deep table and moving it around from zone to zone and temporarily tacking and hooking up light fixtures to the ceiling to see what it looks like.

Okay, I clicked on your follow button. Gee, no one's ever followed me before, not even my wife. lol!

Funky - Should be okay now. I sent you a message. I had everything turned off.

rmtdoug said: "For the lights on the range wall, you have a light directly over the sink/range prep area and the light to the left of the range might be blocked by the hood, although the 1800 lumens over the sink would be pretty blinding :) That might be all you need."

OK, with the rest of your explanation and this comment, I think I'm getting it now. I decided I need to sit on the lights issue for awhile. I have time. Lots of other things to do before we get to the wiring. I also checked out the Randall Whitehead stuff that ontariomom recommended. Some good info there to absorb. Sunday or later next week, I'll probably post more diagrams and elevation shots with some lighting fixtures for more feedback.

Thanks a bunch!

This has been a good thread. As per your most recent mock-up, I think you will want a LED disk light over your prep sink (especially considering the prep sink is not centered the window). With the lack of symmetry there I just don't think a hanging fixture or pendant works . Any fixtures you put over your counters should be down lights as you need the light direction downward for task lighting in these spots. Anywhere you can add under cabinet lighting is perfect. I like the look of one fixture in the middle of your aisle (ambient or up light) as I mentioned above. However, I would not line it up with the hood like you show above (move it more to the left). I would do a pendant on either side of your main peninsula sink with a LED disk light over the sink. Or you go with three pendants over the peninsula (all 3 decorative, but practical down lights). Beside your range, I would think more pendants would be cluttered and I would go with the disk lights there as well (down light again for task). If there is anywhere to put 2 sconces for mood lighting I would definitely look at that (but not sure there is from what you have posted). In this case I would choose up light or ambient sconces.

I hope if you do go see a lighting designer in another bigger city, you will post what you come up with on this thread.

Carol

I've said a lot on this thread so this will wrap it. I would not mix CFL and LED. It won't be pretty. I would go strictly with LED lighting whatever fixtures end up being in the mix. Ontariomom has made several very valid and smart points about the plan as it now exists.

Good luck on your search! You will have a better final result for having done it.

StarCraft Custom Builders posted in another discussion and it reminded me that they have a good section on lighting. Some of it is dated regarding LEDs but it still has some good tips that might be helpful. Check it out StarCraft Custom Builders Lighting Article If you haven't read their kitchen planning articles, follow the other links on the lighting page and do so now. It's an incredible resource.

I also want to share this Residential Lighting Guide that I found. A lot of it discusses California's Title 24 energy requirements but the info would be helpful to anyone wanting to save on energy costs. It does get a bit technical but it's written in layman's terms. Especially helpful is the section on lighting plans for kitchens with diagrams of lighting plans starting on page 26. You can find the PDF here: Residential Lighting Guide There are links to other good information here

Hope this helps us all a bit.

@ontariomom - Thanks for your thoughts about fixture placement. I don't know why this seems so difficult, even more difficult than planning my layout. Your tips are helping me clarify what I haven't really liked about the plans I've come up with and I think they are pointing me in a better direction. I've read quite a few articles and watched a few videos by Randall Whitehead which were helpful and have visited his website. I haven't had a chance to check to see if any of the other books are available at my library.

Per the American Lighting Association's website, there aren't many certified light designers in my state. DH has meetings in three different large metro areas over the next couple of months and I'll be going with him. I'm going to scout out designers there and up-scale lighting stores and do my best to set up at least one appointment with a designer at one of them. And I'll be pestering the help in the upscale stores. I can pester nicely, lol.

I will definitely share what I've learned and further lighting designs here. It seems a lot of us struggle with this part of our kitchen planning so I hope this thread becomes a good resource.

@rococogurl - Please come in anytime and post more thoughts as you've been very helpful. I'm really trying to focus on all LEDs just from an energy standpoint but your tip about mixing lights is helpful and reinforces my decision. I plan for the only lights I'll have that are not LED are the two halogen lights in my hood. I couldn't find any hoods with LEDs. I understand there might be an issue with LEDs being directly above a heating source? I dunno where I read that. It sounds like something coming down the pike but just not for now. Also, thanks for confirming ontariomom's tips. They rang true to me but it's nice to see they do to you as well.

I also wondered if you have a wall behind your peninsula and if you are planning seating anywhere? I ask these questions as I am wondering where a good spot might be in your kitchen to put two up light sconces. We have a wall near to our island stools, and that is where we will put two up light sconces. Sconces lighting is so nice, and way more flattering than down lights (although down lights are what you want for task lighting).

Carol

We have found a hood with LED lights so they are available. Lots of light fixtures can use either LED lights or incandescent. On lightingdirect.com they list out what kind of bulb can be used with each fixture they sell.

Carol

Yeah, I figured we could change the hood lights out for LED bulbs as more bulb styles/sizes are becoming available. It's just odd that so few hoods have them sent that way from the factory. That's a good tip. Thanks.

We took down the wall between kitchen and small dining room. I'm not keen on sitting at islands or peninsulas and the table will be just a few more feet away. We haven't really finalized how furniture will be arranged in the dining space but I do know the table will not be centered in the room. We plan on either two small loveseats, or a loveseat and chair on the dining room side of the peninsula with the dining table pushed up to against either the far wall or window. It will only pulled out more in the center of the room when we're entertaining.

Note where the TV is planned. Since I have no window coverings and don't intend to add any, that's the only wall where light won't wash out the screen. So that wall won't work for sconces or other wall lights.

We can't add ceiling lights to the dining area as the heating is radiant ceiling. I'll figure that room's lighting out after we get done with the kitchen. We will probably either have to do cable lighting or track lighting mounted on the wall.

Here's a diagram of the bigger space. If you click on it, you'll see more area. Thanks for helping so much!

Yes I see the TV location would be the most obvious kitchen sconce area. So, without sconces, I feel even more convinced you would enjoy an ambient or up light fixture in the kitchen aisle area.

As per the TV, will the yellow wall (one that has entry on other side) work for a TV location. That way you could watch TV while you did dishes. Don't they make TVs now that are more glare free even in light filled rooms (if they don't they should).

Have you tried posting your dining room/sitting room room arrangement on the home decorating forum? They might be able to guide your room arrangement so you could inform your lighting in those rooms.

Carol

Good idea on getting help from the decorating forum. When it comes time, I'll do that. I really only have brain power to focus on one home project at a time. Kitchen first.

I have no idea what is available in TV's today. I know less about TV's than I do about lighting, if that is possible, lol. It seems one on that back wall would be uncomfortable for anyone sitting at the dining room table as they would be so close. A good question for the decorating folks, right?

I really have to do some thinking about the uplight/ambient fixture. We only have 92" ceilings and DH is 74", DS is 76". I don't have much room for any kind of lights in the aisle. I think a short semi-flush with minimal drop is the lowest I could go without them feeling like they're going to bonk their heads. I think I only have about 6 or 8" to play with.

I do like your suggestions, ontariomom, and I intend on playing with the last few you've given me. I'll post when I get some up for feedback. Thanks!

Yes, your plans for the dining room table location would not work if you moved that TV to the yellow wall as I suggested. That room will be a challenge to arrange as it is serving 3 functions (dining, TV watching and sitting).

I hear you on low ceilings. Our ceilings are only 96 inches, but still that extra 4 inches over yours will make a difference. From searching in lightingdirect.com for my own ambient/uplight fixtures I did find this one light that comes in several finishes (antique brass, polished nickel, oil rubbed bronze and maybe another finish too). It was one of the shortest fixtures that still claimed to be ambient or uplight. It is 6.5" tall.

I can't figure out how to link this photo from my photobucket (could do this before merger no problem). Edited to update: I figured out how to post this from a file I had on my computer, but how do we link photos from Photobucket or is that stage now unnecessary after the HouzzGW merger?

Thanks for that link. Now I have a better visual of what to look for. I am slowly working on some other plans to put out there for review. Your advice, ontariomom, has been helpful as I'm seeing some configurations that alluded me before. It's odd as I totally understand the concept of light layering with task, ambient, general, accent, etc., but it's so difficult to put all those pieces together in a way that makes sense for the space. It's like a complex puzzle that requires a skillset just beyond my reach.

funkycamper, one other thing about LED bulbs that I've discovered (perhaps someone mentioned it but if so, I missed it in my quick reading of this thread): not all 2700 K LED bulbs are equal. We tried 2 bulbs from 2 different manufacturers at our local professional lighting store and the light they gave us was not the same. I was surprised but the rep told me that's not unusual.

A visit to a professional lighting store would be worth it, IMO, so that you can see the bulbs in action. Our local store has all their cans in an interior space, blocked from natural light, so that you can see the spread of each can and its "color" before buying it. DH and I found it very helpful. We had gone in thinking we'd buy one thing and came out with a different plan altogether, one that suits our needs much, much better.

btw, I'm a PNWer, too; Portland 'burbs. Love this area. I even love the rain. Beats snow and ice any day. I'm sure Bostonians would trade us in a heart beat. ;)

Not having read the whole thread, I may be repeating some advice. But, I had the same problem of not being able to use cans -- we installed regular boxes and used these:

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/LED279.7d853c5f-71b4-449a-8ff2-7c9ee94dabf5.pdf

Home Depot carries a similar product in another brand, as does Menards. They have come down in price as well since I bought mine.

I don't find them too obtrusive, now in fact never notice them. But I love love love the light! IMPORTANT fyi: these work only with a regular lutron "Toggler" dimmer, not the "Toggler" labeled for LEDS! (Toggler because that was the style I wanted, don't know about the other Lutron styles/compatibility)

Mine (purchased 2 years ago at Lowe's) are 800 lumens each and 3000K, which I think is the perfect color temperature. A clean, soft, not harshly cold white light. 4000K to me borders on too blue. As some mentioned above, at first I thought it was too much light (especially with the UCL) but there are times that I am very glad for it. I totally recommend LED over fluorescent, the light quality is far superior.

I have 5 of them in my approx. 9x14 kitchen. The lighting designer that I consulted gave me these tips about positioning: Place them over the edge of the counter, to avoid glare on the countertop as well as shadows from the person standing there; and watch the positioning around the frig or large cabinet where an open door would block the light from where you need it. For example, don't position the light that needs to illuminate a cupboard where the open cupboard door would block it. For me, that meant on either side of the frig and a bit back from the pantry/frig fronts.

If you go into Lowe's or Home Depot, either should have a display that shows the different color temps in real life.

What lisa_a said, definitely don't go by the "watts", look at the lumens and CRI (color rendering index, higher is better). Some brands produce fewer lumens for the same wattage but will still label the bulb as "60 watt equivalent" although it is dimmer than another brand's "60 watt equivalent".

Good point, raee_gw. DH and I tested the lumens of LED bulbs and cans in the showroom with an app he downloaded to his phone. We then compared those readings to light from our kitchen's halogen cans. We immediately eliminated one choice because the light wasn't as bright, even though its wattage comparison was supposed to be similar.

We're collected so much good advice here. Thanks. I hope others planning lighting are also finding it useful.

@lisa_a - I love Portland! DH has a 6-day meeting in Vancouver WA in March so I was planning on going with him and visiting Portland a lot during that time. Could you share the name/location of the lighting store with lights to view in action just in case I can't find some place similar on my own? Could you also share the phone app? That sounds handy.

Thanks in advance for that info and also for your other helpful tips. Most winters I wouldn't mind a bit of snow just to alleviate the rain but we've had such awesome weather it's more like fall than winter. I walked the dog today without a jacket, just long sleeves. Beautiful sun! We're not used to so much of that golden orb at this time of year and it's been a joy. (Sorry to rub it in, East Coasters!)

@raee_gw - Those lights look like an excellent choice. The ones I found at my local HD are very similar but only had 650 lumens and I wanted more lumens than that in order to be able to use a few less fixtures. Our kitchens are roughly the same size and you only needed 5 so that sounds promising. Do you have any other types of lighting fixtures in your kitchen to supplement those lights beyond the UCL's? And do you have UCL's over all of your working counters?

My HD has lights on display but they're all so close together and can't be turned off/on to see the light individually. Add to that all the store lighting in the aisles and such. So you can see the lights in action but it's impossible to really assess the lighting from just certain lights. Will visit other stores in the future to see if they have better displays.

Thanks for taking the time to share all those excellent suggestions. It's very helpful.

I found this page which was helpful as it shows you the ambient, task, and accent lighting in the same kitchen, and helped me understand the differences and the way they're used better. Types of Lighting with Visuals

I can't remember if I shared this or not yet but it has a lot of helpful info, too. Kitchen info starts on page 26. And it has suggested diagrams, too. Residential Lighting Guide

I go to Globe Lighting in Tualatin but they have a store in Vancouver, too. There's also one in Seattle. http://www.globelighting.com/storelocator.htm

I've been going to Globe Lighting for decades and I've almost always received great advice.

DH just left for an errand so I can't post the app name until later but I will.

The weather has been unbelievably gorgeous but I'm worried that this lovely spell of sun and warmth is going to mean a bad fire season and possible water restrictions this summer. It's going to be nearly impossible to make up for our near record low snow pack and that ain't good.

Pity my kitchen remodel will just be getting underway when you're in town or I'd invite you over to see the end result. You'll just have to wait for pictures like everyone else. ;)

Thanks. Will put Globe on my list of places to visit.

Oh, agreed on the snow pack issue. In January we had a few days of very heavy rain and since our rainfall is down, the ground was drier than normal, which led to some mudslides that condemned a few homes as the rain didn't soak into already wet earth but, instead, pelted the dry ground hard enough to send it sliding. If I understand the geology of it right. Several homes at the top of the hill lost their entire backyards down the slide so those houses are also condemned as they are teetering on the edge. No loss of lives, thank goodness.

Portland is only a 3 hour roadtrip away and I love roadtrips. Maybe a visit when you're done? And then you can come visit mine when done, too. :)

Edited to add: Oh, I see they do business in Seattle as Seattle Lighting which was on my list. DH has a meeting in Seattle in March as well so the Seattle location was already on my list. I'll go to both. Might get slightly different tips from each and it would be interesting to compare tips to see how similar, or not, they are. I love his job. I get to travel all over with him and stay in uber-nice hotels, company paid, and go play while he works. Poor guy. My favorite is the once a year meeting in Anaheim so I get my Disneyland fix. :)

Funkycamper, I have a small pendant over the sink but find that I rarely turn it on -- likewise the undercab lights. Those are under all the cabs except the little 9" one between the stove and the wall. I have 3 disk lights spaced down the left side and 2 on the right

f the back door/basement entry were not there I would have a 6th light). I've taken pics but I wasn't able to get all the lights in one view.

Just a side note-- one of the less well done things in my fairly budget remodel was the work of the wall and ceiling repair. Not very even in spots, and the original ceiling is 74 years old anyway, so the disks don't sit absolutely flush all the way around. The gaps are minor and you might not have noticed them without me mentioning it! I intend to add some caulk which will hide that, but who knows when I'll get around to it.

Thanks, that's very helpful. I really want to over light the area so I can dim to the amount of illumination I need but I don't want to crowd unnecessary light fixtures into such a small space. This gives me hints on how to find that right balance of ambient and task, which are most important to me, and then determine what else can be squeezed in or eliminated.

funkycamper, the app is called "Light Meter" from mannoun.net. It measures lux not lumens. Guess I got those confused. Per this site, a "lumen is a unit of light measurement otherwise known as luminous flu" and a "lux is is a unit of light measurement taking area into account. In other words, light intensity." Part of me thinks, "that was helpful," the other part thinks, "great, another factor to consider in the lighting decision process."

Since we were comparing lux to lux with the app, it was a useful tool to find out which bulb would give us approximately the same amount of light we currently enjoy.

btw, there are a number of similar apps out there so you can check out which you prefer. DH did a search on the spot at the store so he didn't spend much time figuring which would work best, just which one could he get right now.

I'd heard about the mudslides up north. I think we only had a minor one or two in the PDX area, thank goodness. I'm glad no one was hurt.
Shall we have bumper stickers made up that say "will travel for kitchens?" ;)

Thanks for the app. I was also thinking, "Lux? Now I have to learn about lux????" But, really, it does sound like a useful measure. Particularly if you have something to measure against and compare. I'll poke around and see what I can find. Maybe there are several useful apps out there that can simplify this process a bit. Wouldn't that be great?

I bet if you made up those bumper stickers, you could sell them to a bunch of people here at the Kitchen forum. Might be a nice sideline? ;)

raee-gw - I was just re-looking at your lighting layout and realized I forgot to tell you how lovely your kitchen looks. I'd love to see more photos of it. If you did it on a budget, it doesn't look like it. I sure didn't notice any irregularities in your ceiling or gaps in your lighting. And it looks like you get some nice light from your windows.

Spent hours last night trying to locate ceiling fixtures that offer up or ambient light (and not down light). Since our ceilings are only 8 foot, I want to find some way to balance all the down light we will have with can lights,. Of the over 9 thousand I searched, I only found 36 acceptable lights. They are a rare find.

Carol

I'd be glad to pay you for the links to them. Seriously, tell me where to send a check. How in the heck did you search 9000 that fast? I searched through just a couple sites and it took me most of yesterday, morning, afternoon and evening with just breaks to walk the dog and cook and eat. I found zip. Why am I so slow? What's your secret?

I took a break on the ceiling lights for awhile and searched for up light sconces. Found a lot of them but didn't really like any of them. They all look like bathroom lights to me.

Yes searching sconces is worse than searching ceiling fixtures. I would be glad to send you my so called lighting cart with the 36 ceiling fixtures that offer up or ambient light. Email me and I will see if I can send you the cart.

Carol

Also, funkycamper, if you tell me what kind of sconces you are looking for I might be able to help there too. I have searched thousands of sconces too. I have saved some to my pinterest board. I think there would be a way for you to see my boards no? Not really a Pinterest expert.

Carol

Email sent. Now delete your email here! Pronto!

I just Followed you. You can do that by clicking on my name. Once we have followed each other, we can send each other private messages. When you want to contact someone in the future, you might try doing it that way. Safer than putting your email out there.

Yes, my email is now deleted. I have emailed you my Pinterest collection of sconces I like too and removed my Pinterest link above as well.

Carol

Such an illuminating ;-) thread. Thank you. Following all this with interest.

I love a good pun, Carrie B.

Well, I had my own illumination last night as I was cleaning up after dinner. I can center my sink under the window as I'm switching to a smaller prep sink there and there's no reason it can't move a bit. I'll still have about 42-43" prep space from sink to range if I center it. It was a Homer "D'oh!" moment.

Well, that solves one problem. Now to solve the other 99. :)

Funkycamper, thanks for the compliment on the kitchen. It is small bur amazingly it was so bad before, even though it had less than half the cabinetry, that it feels larger now! Adding the small window (that you could see the light from) made a huge difference -- if I could do it over I would make the wall cabinet smaller and that window a bit bigger.

Well, my kitchen is about a foot smaller than yours so I know small! It' s amazing what a good layout and good light can do for a small space. And the finishes you've chosen look sharp and crisp! Nice.

funkycamper, its late and I've not read every post - just wanted to add that our electrician mentioned something about not mixing bulbs (led, hal...).

Yes, that was mentioned above but I think it's important enough that it bears repeating.