Your city has an extensive water report. Most can be found online and will give you the same info (or most of it) that an independent lab will provide.

If you don't want to be married to the company that provides your equipment, don't buy from Kinetico or Culligan. You can not find repair parts unless you go through them. In fact, I have heard of some Kinetico dealers refusing to sell repairs parts in order to get a service charge.

Clack & Fleck make very good valves that will provide years of service. Repair parts are available through many sources online as well as local dealers.

Based on your numbers, heres how I would size it:
5*65 (average daily usage)=352
107 TDS/17.1=6.25 grains per gallon round to 7 (TDS of 107 is low compared to your TDS reading of 386) 386/17.1=22.5 rounded to 23. I'll use the higher number
352*23=8096 grains removed daily
8096*7=56672 grains removed weekly
1 CF of resin will yeild 20,000 grains on the efficency setting so 20K *3 CF= 60K

Have your water tested for hardness and then you can plug in the numbers to determine the size needed or post results here.

Not sure why a high pH would be a concern. In Austin Tx they ran their water system with a pH of over 10 for years without problems. Low pH on the other hand is very bad in a water system.

Chemistry is not a discipline that lends itself to inaccuracy or vaugeness or a range of results if you want a correct result..

Municipal water reports are usually a year or two behind today and results are ranges rather than specifics at the treatment plant not at the location which can be miles and miles and miles of old aged pipes away.

A water test from a certified lab gives you the specific results a competent water treatment professional should want to recommend specifically what you need to treat the water at your house. Relying on a dated, ranged water report is pretty much like a softener huckster who doesn't test your water and wants to sell you a softener.

I, for one, do not like using a water report from the city or an independent lab to recommend a softener. I test the water at the source myself. As far as I know, cities are required to test annually & report their finding to the residents in that city. That means the reports should not be older than 1 year. I've only been doing water treatment for 25 years though. I agree with having the water tested before buying any equipment. What I don't agree with is paying $200-300 for an independant lab report on city water. Using a certified lab may give you the results of the test right now, but what about the cities that use several sources for their water in the course of a year. Those certified tests are now invalid. With the city report, they will give you a high and low throughout the year. This should be used as a guideline only.

Neither the length of time nor the number of internet forums someone posts on is an indication of their competency or ethics in sizing or selling water treatment equipment locally or keyboarding for dollars on internet forums.

The EPA requires annual water testing by municipal water authorities but when you look up the latest results they are usually one and often two years behind and always report ranges for the most important contaminants.

To correctly size a softener one needs the exact data on water condition, water usage, and plumbing circumstances at the installation site. If you're going to use ranges or averages then just go to Sears and buy the softener on sale that week or go to internet forums where there are always people who violate the TOS and will sell you a softener without testing your water based on a dated and ranged municipal water report.

Thanks so much for your replies! I have tested the SFR to be 7 seconds. That was in our jacuzzi bath tub which has the most pressure in the house. And to clarify, its a total 4 baths, (one is a jacuzzi style tub) not hot tub in addition to the baths. The diameter of most pipes read 3/4, but there are 2 that have nothing connected to them that read 1/2. There is a drain in the room in between our double water heaters.

Mostly 5 people (3 adults 2 kids) but we sometimes 4 adults- we have a 15 yr old (takes long showers) with us on weekends/holidays. He may stay for good after this semester. But then the oldest will go off to military in Aug.

The main reasons I prefer potassium is because I have a salt sensitivity that I occasionally take a water pill for and about 12 years ago in a different house I purchased a Rain Soft water softener that used potassium and I absolutely loved it and I didnt notice the price being a concern (although it was a smaller house with only 2 infants at the time). And I was thinking if we used the soft water through our sprinkler system our grass and plants would thrive better off potassium.

I am checking into purchasing a certified lab test now. Will someone come to my home to do this or is it something they will send me and I complete and send back off?

Justalurker was right, the city water report was from 1/2013-12/2013 so its outdated data. I will attach it though.

Thanks again for help!!

Thanks so much for your replies! I have tested the SFR to be 7 seconds. That was in our jacuzzi bath tub which has the most pressure in the house. And to clarify, its a total 4 baths, (one is a jacuzzi style tub) not hot tub in addition to the baths. The diameter of most pipes read 3/4, but there are 2 that have nothing connected to them that read 1/2. There is a drain in the room in between our double water heaters.

Mostly 5 people (3 adults 2 kids) but we sometimes 4 adults- we have a 15 yr old (takes long showers) with us on weekends/holidays. He may stay for good after this semester. But then the oldest will go off to military in Aug.

The main reasons I prefer potassium is because I have a salt sensitivity that I occasionally take a water pill for and about 12 years ago in a different house I purchased a Rain Soft water softener that used potassium and I absolutely loved it and I didnt notice the price being a concern (although it was a smaller house with only 2 infants at the time). And I was thinking if we used the soft water through our sprinkler system our grass and plants would thrive better off potassium.

I am checking into purchasing a certified lab test now. Will someone come to my home to do this or is it something they will send me and I complete and send back off?

Justalurker was right, the city water report was from 1/2013-12/2013 so its outdated data. I will attach it though.

Thanks again for help!!

It will not let me post a pdf, so i've copied a link to the water report.

https://www.kcwaterservices.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2014WQR.pdf

While a 40lb bag of quality NaCl is around $4 here the price of KCl only used to be a couple bucks more but now KCl is around $25 a 40 lb bag. The specific gravity of potassium is different than sodium so you have to use more to ion exchange at the same hardness than sodium.Quite a difference in $$$ over a year.

I am on BP meds and used to use KCl but changed back to NaCl when the price skyrocketed. Wife's house plants are doing fine and the amount of sodium added to a liter of water is less than the sodium content of a slice of white bread. You might ask your doctor.

Your local or state environmental health department should be able to direct you to certified independent labs and there's always the Yellow Pages.

For what's it worth, here is a site that does not charge a whole lot for testing. You can see what tests are performed on the submittal form. But then again, some people might even reject this test.
WWW.SOILTESTING.TAMU.EDU/

From that URL... "The laboratory's primary mission is to provide research based analysis and non-bias recommendations for agronomic and non-agronomic soil analysis, plant tissue analysis, forage nutritive analysis, and non-drinking water analysis. The laboratory also aids the research and extension communities with analysis needs. We also work closely with a number of Texas A&M University service laboratories, other state agency laboratories, and private laboratories with method development, troubleshooting and quality assurance/quality control issues, as well as, forwarding clientele to insure their needs are met".

Some people research what they recommend before they recommend it.

This post was edited by justalurker on Mon, Jan 26, 15 at 12:59

Why do I get the feeling you have a problem with me? Is it the fact that I disagree with you on some things? I have used this testing service on many occations so I guess you could call that researching. If you read the submittal info you will discover some of the elements tested are the same as other higher priced test labs. Does one really need to know the amounts of elements in the water that will not be effected with a water softener? I can understand if it is a health issue, but doesn't the city provide water free of health issue elements? Or at least suppose to.

I guess it's me... non-drinking water analysis means what it says. There may be different procedures or techniques when testing non-potable water versus potable water, I don't know. You mentioned that they "do not charge a whole lot for testing". Maybe that's why.

What I know is that when a lab specifies "non-drinking water analysis" they do that for a reason.

Plumbing codes exist to make sure that potable (drinking) water is safe. AFAIK there are no safety requirements for non-potable (non-drinking) water other than proper drain and sewer piping and fittings and such..

That you "have used this testing service on many occasions" does not make it safe or accurate or prudent when the lab states "non-drinking water analysis" but you tell others to do it which IMO is wrong and I have pointed that out.

My problem is that people come to these forums who know little to nothing and will follow what self-proclaiming professions tell them to do. You say "doing water treatment for 25 years" but that doesn't mean you know what you're doing or that you're doing it right. Doing water treatment for 25 years somewhere in that time you should have learned to be concise and accurate.

Some people would call that being a professional.

One would think that a city would insure that the water is safe to drink. Why would an independent lab need to test the water if the "non drinking" water analysis provides the same results of the different elements. For example, both will test for calcium, magnesium & iron. All of which a WATER SOFTENER will remove. In addition, they will test for 15 other elements that a water softener will not remove. A certified lab may test for more or less elements who knows. What other elements need to be tested that certified lab will test for that a water softener will remove?

And again, you made comments on my knowledge in water treatment. Wasn't it myself that corrected you on the proper salt dosage? I started as a warehouse mgr in 1990. Was promoted to a svc tech by 91 & became the svc mgr by 92. In 2 short years I became the head honcho which should say something about my skills. I moved on to sales by 2000 & started my own company in 2006. Now my time is dedicated to training sales & service personnel for my company & educating people on these forums. I have never claimed to know it all nor will I ever. But I do know enough to be very helpful to those searching advise & I don't questions other peoples opinions. Just correct them when they are wrong. So if you me saying something that is complete wrong, by all means, correct me. If I'm stating an opinion, please don't question my skills. Now that is very UNPROFESSIONAL.

IIRC it was this thread http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/plumbing/msg0119113414792.html?19 where we both corrected the OP regarding salt dose for a 1.5 cube softener.

Both of you have valuable info, sometimes different in approach. Without the both you here, us dummies couldn't gain keener insight on the subject. We'd go off to another forum with possibly way different answers to our questions in return.

To have two experts in one forum going at it only sharpens the answers you guys give. Priceless, but only if both of contribute.

Thank you.

I see nowhere that "we" corrected the OP. I see where I stated that you can not get 30K from a 1.5 CF softener using only 6 lbs of salt. You in turn posted a chart asking me if it was wrong as well. IMO, this is one of many cheap shots at my knowledge. I correctly said you must use 9 lbs of salt to get 30K from a 1.5 CF system.

My reply in that thread was to the OP and ultimately he noted his misunderstanding the salt dose. We were correcting him in parallel but you were too honed in on an argument that you didn't realize it.

I'm not here to put my hand in anyone's pocket while it seems that is the reason you're here.

EOT

This post was edited by justalurker on Mon, Jan 26, 15 at 23:25

I have ordered my test kit, once I have final results I will post them here. Thanks again for all your help!!

There you go again with the cheap shots. Is this not what you said?
•Posted by justalurker (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 20, 15 at 10:19
If you MEANT to say 1 cube @ 6 lbs/cu ft = 20k then OK, BUT you said "If you run a 1.5 CF softener at 6 lbs, you will only get 20,000 grain capacity"
I said "1.5 cubes @ 6 lbs/cube = 30k "

I guess this is wrong too...

You CLEARLY state that using 6 lbs of salt will yield 30K from a 1.5 CF unit which is wrong. Talk about needing to do research. Please explain YOUR education in the water treatment industry.

Looks to me like you are both saying the same thing.

biermech's 9 lb of salt total for a 1.5 CF softener

justalurker's 6 lb of salt per CF or /cu ft or /cube is the same thing

Looks like you simply missed the units of measure, biermech.

This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Tue, Jan 27, 15 at 10:34

Buy a Kinetico water softener.
Why? Because they work. Bought mine 32 years ago.
I do need a "tune up" with some more resin added. (regular resin. Don't know what people are talking about carbon resin? I did do one thing. I added a cheap Omni Filter to my water line. I ADDED IT AFTER THE SOFTENER. NOT BEFORE. THE FILTER LAST ABOUT 6 MONTHS (I do use a standard carbon filter about $5.00, and my whole house has filtered water, not just on sink. (What a joke to buy a filter for one sink, or pay $35.00 for a refrigerator filter. I have only had to have my softener repaired 2 or 3 times in 32 years. They only had to replace some o'rings and seals.

Hi, me again. "Blessedmomof4" See my results below. Also, i had to change my user name, it was stating that I didn't have an account set up. Very strange.

General Bacteria

total coliform-Absent

fecal/ecoli- Absent

Sodium- 64.92 mg/L

Potassium 5.55 mg/L

Iron 0.25 mg/L

Magnesium - 3.42 mg/L

Calcium - 41.94 mg/L

pH 9.96 SU

Turbidity - 0.14 N.T.U

Conductivity- 609.0 umhos

TDS- 365.4 mg/L

Alkalinity- 30.0 mg/L

Chlorine- 2.32 mg/L

Chloride- 20.85 mg/L

Hardness- 118.8 mg/L

Nitrate as Nitrogen- 1.94 mg/L

Nitrite as Nitrogen- not detected

Ammonia as Nitrogen- not detected

Sulfate- 159.87 mg/L

Others not detected included- copper, manganese, arsenic, lead, zinc, color, odor, sediment

Thanks again for your assistance and patience in helping me determine the correct size softener.

Also, there are now four adults and 2 little ones. One adult will go off to the military in August.

Your analysis suggests a 1.0 CF softener. However, with five people living in a four-bathroom home, the likelihood of running three fixtures at the same time is high, so I suggest a 1.5 CF softener.

As you speak to softener salespeople, you want to ensure they provide the following:

1. High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin, longer resin life, and more reliable, predicable water softening.

2. Since you have CITY WATER: 10% crosslinked resin. The oxidizers that city water treatment plants use, such as chlorine or chloramine, are harmful to softener resins. Higher crosslinking will resist chemical attack longer.

3. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash.

4. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break.

5. Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should regen based on water usage, not time.

6. Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Use full-port, quarter-turn valves.

7. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time. This is a redundancy if you install with a proper three-valve bypass. I prefer a bit of redundancy but it is your call.

8. Brine tank: Although either round or square will work, round brine tanks are more structurally sound and will not deform like a square tank will. Additionally, if you need a softener 1.5 cuft or larger, a square tank will most likely be too small.

9. If you live in a cold climate, ensure equipment is stored in a climate-controlled environment. Frozen softener resin is damaged softener resin.

10. Purchase a Hach 5-B test kit. You will want to periodically check to ensure your softener is working correctly and this kit is your best option.

You have some iron in your water, which means you won't be able to run a softener at maximum salt efficiency. The problem with iron-laden water in a softener is that softener resin has a great affinity for iron and does not release it easily. Iron will slowly foul the softener resin from the inside out. Extra measures, in addition to a higher salt dose, need to be taken to remove the iron. For this you have several options.

A. The easiest option may be to simply use Iron-Remover salt.

B. Alternatively, you can use Super Iron Out. You may choose to layer this in with your salt. If you choose this option, use 1/4 C per 40 lb bag of salt.

C. Super Iron Out is more effective if used monthly with the following procedure:

1. Ensure you have a strong brine in your brine tank - at least 24 hours since the last regen.
2. Dissolve 1 C Iron Out in cool water and pour it into the brine well inside your brine tank. If you don't have a brine well, for some reason, pour it down the side of the tank rather than through the salt.
3. Place your softener into manual regen and stay right there.
4. When backwash is complete, the softener will move to the brine/slow rinse mode. Pay attention to the way it sounds. After 10 minutes or so the sound will change when there is no more brine to draw. At this point, we want the Iron Out to sit in the softener for an hour. To do that, push the button to advance to the next regen step, then the next until your softener is back in service mode. Do this as quickly as you can.
5. Switch your valves so your softener is bypassed and wait one hour minimum.
6. Place your valves back in service mode and manually start a softener regen.
7. Once the regen is complete you're good to go for another month.

D. A liquid iron removal system such as Res Up can be installed in your brine tank to feed citric acid to the brine to aid with iron removal.

My preferred methods are A or D because they employ citric acid, which is a much safer chemical than those in Super Iron Out (sodium hydrosulfite and sodium metabisulfite). The choice is yours - pick a method and follow it religiously and your softener will give you many years of reliable service.

Thanks so much for all your advice Alice. If I chose to purchase these items myself via the net, are all these parts available in fleck brand? And we do have a sprinkler system that runs through the plumbing in our mechanical room in basement where we will set up the softener, will this be easily bypassed so we do not soften the water to our yard? Thanks!

Yes, you should be able to easily find a Fleck softener as specified.

I have no way of knowing how difficult it may be to bypass your sprinkler system. It depends entirely upon how your home is plumbed. A licensed plumber can answer that after a visit to your home.

Hi, Justaluker commented that if the ph in my lab report corroborated my city report, then I would need to treat my water. My comprehensive lab test came back slightly higher at 9.96 SU. I would love any advice on how I could treat this. Thanks a bunch!

If the high pH water bothers you, certainly it may be treated with acid injection to lower the pH, but it is not strictly necessary to adjust a high pH. It won't damage your pipes, appliances or health. Once your remove the calcium from your water, it will become slightly corrosive at the high pH, but nothing to worry about. It would be more corrosive at a low pH.

If your water has a high silica content, you could run into some corrosion problems with high pH, but if that were the case you would most likely already be seeing a combination of scale and corrosion on your fixtures. The information in your city water report has enough analysis to explain the sources of the TDS in your water so any silica content would have to be minimal.

Bottom line: I wouldn't reduce the water pH.

Thanks so much for all your help and sticking with me, I really really appreciate it. I do have a couple more silly questions. If I decide to go with kinetico would I still need to request top and bottom baskets, gravel under bed, 3 bypass valve? Would I need to buy my salt from them also? And my husband isn't wanting to drill a hole in granite for RO at sink so would a whole house filtration be ok instead with my water conditions? And lastly, which kinetico would you recommend? The guy that was here suggested the s150 or 735 but from what I've been able to read, they look like a 1CU and I think you suggested 1.5 which would remove at least 32gr?

Kinetico is a different design entirely. They use packed-beds which allows for more flow through a smaller softener, and use water flow to operate the valves. No need for you to specify a gravel underbed or top/bottom baskets with Kinetico.

You have city water, so your water is safe to drink. If you are looking to improve just the taste of your water, a carbon filter will remove the chlorine. Some folks don't care for the taste of softened water either. In that case you have two basic options. Both would result in an extra hole in your countertop.

1. Install an RO to reduce everything from the softened water
   OR

2. Run one line of unsoftened water to the kitchen sink and install a POU (point-of-use) carbon filter.

If you don't mind the taste of softened water, you may install a POU carbon filter at the sink, or a whole-house carbon filter. A while house filter will remove chlorine from the water to your entire home. You may prefer this if you observe noticeably chlorine smell while showering, but it does leave your home's plumbing unprotected from bacterial growth. Filtering all of your home's water will also result in higher initial cost and more frequent cartridge changes. A POU system at the sink will be less costly initially and require less frequent filter changes. Either method will work - you'll have to decide based on your priorities.

Hi, me again! I wonder if there's anyone else whose husband has taken so long to decide on purchasing a specific brand of water softener and components. ha! My husband has given me the go ahead to purchase a fleck. Based on the water conditions above I wanted to double check and make sure that I was purchasing the best one for our home/family. I'm looking at the fleck 7000SXT. I had a kinetico dealer here whom also happens to sell fleck, but only carries the 5600 24gr, which he said was perfect for our size. Based on the feedback from above it looks like I need a 1.5CU 32gr? Is this correct and would a 7000SXT be the right one for our home? So far I am unsuccessful in finding professionals that carry fleck locally. Although, the kinetico dealer said if I purchased it he would install it for me for $350. And one other thing he mentioned is I didnt need the 3 way bypass valve, that he soldered it instead? Would love any feedback! Thanks so much!

You can use a 5600sxt or a 7000sxt. Either is a good, reliable controller. The 5600sxt is smaller, if space is a consideration.

A 1.5 cu ft softener may be referred to as a 45K or 48K. Given your family size and potential for high flows, a 0.75 cu ft (24K) softener, although it would handle your hardness, would likely be too small for your flow rate.

As to soldering the softener in place, I wouldn't, even if you decide against the noryl bypass valve. Either way, ensure you have a three-valve bypass in place in case the softener ever needs repairs or replacement.

If you intend to purchase yourself and have someone else install, get plumber to do it rather than the Kinetico dealer who has already demonstrated a lack of ability to size a non-Kineticao softener. A plumber can competently bypass your outside faucets for you at the same time. I can help with programming instructions once a softener is on site. If you do like the Kinetico dealer, buy a Kinetico from him. They are very reliable softeners - just be certain he is addressing the iron in your water.

Thank you so so much! I was planning to use the iron remover salt you had recommended, it seemed like the easiest option for us. :-)

We just bought a home that had an existing Culligan water softener system installed. We had a technician (and yes, you will be married to a Culligan dealer for ANY issues/repairs/service) come out and check to ensure the equipment worked properly and was at the correct setting for our water & our usage. My husband said the guy was in & out before he knew it. The technician told him the equipment was working fine. He never even checked our water quality which cough, cough I'm not sure why hubby didn't insist it be done. We used to have well water & a very good softener years ago, and we never had the issues we have with using this Culligan system. I taste salt in the water, our faucets all have white scale on them, 3 months into moving here our brand new fridge ice maker doesn't work, toilets are lined with orange, our white laundry is dingy and my daughter & I use tons! of shampoo and soap in the shower and our skin is not soft at all. My husband adjusted the ? I'm not sure what to try to correct, but I'm not even sure he's done it right. Hate to call the technician again and get their $250 charge for nothing. Wish I could remember the brand of the old unit we had. After reading several sites, I am leaning towards the Fleck brand. But, like other readers have stated, it's not about the cost of the unit initially, it's more important to LOVE our water!

Hi Dawn,

Since this thread is already 3 years old, why don't you start your own thread.