IMO any salesperson that trashes another company is not very professional and I would not do business with them. Besides, backwash is flowing the opposite way so it would flow from the bottom up. I do not recommend the Kinetico because you can not find parts. That means you have to buy from the dealer only. My vote goes to the Fleck system. They are a very well built system.

I couldn't agree with you more. I am now trying to get past the salesman to really see if the system is worth the difference. There are certainly lots of people that have them around us and like them.

I am looking for someone who has experience with the Fleck 9100SXT with hard well water. It would be great to go see the salesman several years later and tell him that I had no problems with it.

First, Alice is correct. With the iron you have a separate iron treatment device pre softener is the intelligent choice rather than subject the softener resin to handling the iron..

Second, the chemistry and physics of water treatment apply equally to all ion exchange softeners regardless of brand. Softeners will differ in their mechanics. While Kinetico espouses the superiority of their non-electric design as Alice points out a "packed bed" design requires a pre-filter which adds cost, complexity, and increases maintenance. The Kinetico design has one potential problem that troubles me in that their brine line is always under system pressure and the float in the brine tank sets the water level where an industry standard softener like a Clack, Fleck, or Autotrol is not under system pressure until the "brine fill" step in regeneration and the control valve sets the water level in the brine tank. A potential result of that design(?) failing is that if a brine line fitting at either end of the PE (polyethylene) brine tubing or the tubing fails you have a water leak at full system pressure. Ask your Kinetico guy how he likes them apples.

Third, water powered versus electrically powered. Water is free and works pretty well but the Kinetico control valve design is very complicated and has a lot of moving parts and all those little gears and pawls are moving when water is flowing. Industry standard softeners only run the motor to move from cycle to cycle during regeneration. The rest of the time the motor sits idle and the only thing that requires electricity is the clock in the control valve. Far more sophisticated electronics have been aboard cars, trucks, motorcycles, and boats for decades and have proven to be pretty reliable. Power failure and you reset the clock in the electronic controlled control valve although most have a capacitor or battery to back up the clock and all the programming is stored in NVRAM that remembers.

Fourth, do your circumstances lend themselves to a two resin tank (commonly called a TWIN) softener? I think not. The sales tactic of "you'll have soft water 24/7" sounds good BUT you usually get a softener with each resin tank being smaller than the SFR of the plumbing system requires so that hardness may leak through and that undersized system will regenerate more often using more salt and water over the long haul than a correctly sized single resin tank softener would. Most industry standard electronically controlled softeners regenerate at 2AM and few people are using water at that time. If you are then the regen time can be changed in most designs. A correctly sized single tank softener will be thousands less than a Kinetico twin and almost half of a Fleck 9100SXT softener that is correctly sized and will go longer between regenerations lowering salt and water use with less wear and tear of the control valve and resin over the long haul resulting in longer softener service life.

Fourth, as Alice pointed out, buy a Kinetico and you're married to the dealer. There is no tech info supplied by Kinetico dealers or the factory to customers and many Kinetico dealers won't sell parts. Good dealer, then no problem but it will cost you $$$. Parts and free tech info for industry standard Clack or Fleck based softeners are available all over the internet.

Regarding reliability I recall reading somewhere that there were more Fleck based softeners sold and operating in the field than all other softener brands combined worldwide. Even if that was bragging, Fleck has been around a VERY long time in residential and commercial water treatment. I'd have a Fleck control valve but I love the Clack WS1 control valve for it's simplicity, reliability, ease of service, and simple programming, but Clack based softeners are limited to brick and mortar local independent water treatment pros. It'd be worth your while to look around your area and see if you can find one who sells Clack control valve based softeners.

JMO...

Aliceinwonderland and Justalurker,

I immensely appreciate your comments. I really wanted to get the Fleck system but the Kinetico guy trashed them so much that it made me question them despite my gut feeling. I am an engineer and it really torqued me that he would not just deal with technical specs of his versus theirs and he seemed to be responding off script.

Our iron level does seem high compared to a lot of posts that I have read but it is pretty normal to a little low for our area. Wells here are usually 40-50 feet. Below that you can get out of the iron but into the salt water. A guy down the road at 100 feet has over 1,000 mg/l of salt but very little iron. I would really appreciate suggestions for the removal systems.

I am concerned about the amount of pressure drop in the system and then adding an iron removal system on top of that. We do have a submersible pump running 220v. The Fleck 9100SXT says Service Flow Rate: 12 GPM @ 15 psi drop. Does that mean that I will see a 15 psi drop when flowing at 12 gpm? Three showers (3x2.5 gpm) + dishwasher (1 gpm) + clothes washer (0.25 gpm) = 8.25 gpm (and an overloaded septic system) leads me to believe that I will have a lower flow rate and thus a lower pressure drop. I would appreciate any pressure drop/flow rate info on the iron removal systems.

Again, big thanks for the feedback. This one has kept me up thinking about it.

3 ppm of iron is asking a lot of softener resin to remove regardless of where the water is. Pressure drop... don't install iron treatment and experience the pressure drop of a softener with iron fouled resin.

If you are intent on the softener dealing with your 3ppm of iron you will be using ResUp or Iron Out or another product on a regular basis to clean the resin and the softener should be regenerating every three to four days all increasing your cost of operation while shortening the service life of the resin dramatically.

SFR of a softener is ultimately capped by the control valve, but what determines the SFR of the softener is the volume of resin and the resin tank size. Some softener manufacturers quote softener SFR fast and loose and often disagree with the specs of the resin set by the resin company. IMO the resin company knows more about the resin it manufactures than a softener company. It's like when Kinetico claims their softeners are more salt efficient even though they have less resin than the water conditions call for. They just use less salt every regeneration but regenerate more frequently. As I said "the chemistry and physics of water treatment apply equally to all ion
exchange softeners regardless of brand. Softeners will differ in their
mechanics".

Pretty much every 3/4" and above control valve far exceeds the gross SFR of the SFR of a specific volume of resin in a specific tank size.

Great advice - thank you! It looks like an iron removal system is in my future. Doing some reading on different companies sites and one talks about iron bacteria testing. I did their test which is to take a strong light to shine close to parallel with the water so you can see the sheen and then put your finger in the water to see if it repels or does not change. They tell you to tell the tech what your result is but do not tell you what the answer is on the site. Mine repelled as I expected I would be disrupting the surface tension of the film with my finger. Any idea on if this would be consistent with iron bacteria?

I am also going to do a FR (flow rate) test of my system to see what I am dealing with but need to get a helper home to watch/listen for the pressure switch while I am timing and counting gallons.

Any recommendations on iron removal systems?

Thanks!!!

There are several methods for removing iron.

Softener: A softener with specialty resin is capable of removing dissolved iron, up to 7 ppm (mg/L) but asking a softener to remove iron at those upper limits is really pushing it so I do not recommend this method. In addition, a softener used to remove iron requires you to take some extra steps to keep the resin in good working order. If you want to do it right, this will take a couple of hours of your time each month. In general, if your iron is 1 ppm or higher, a softener is a poor choice. However, sometimes financial and/or space constraints make a softener the only feasible option. If that is the case, I can provide you with a procedure to keep it operating as effectively as possible.

Oxidation/Filtration: An oxidizer such as ozone, air, or chlorine may be used to react with the iron and force it to become particulate iron that can then be removed via filtration. This will also remove most sulfur compounds. A typical setup would involve the oxidizing unit, a holding tank, then a media filter. This type of system works quite well, but takes some expertise in sizing - you would want a water treatment pro that you trust to help you with this option.

Oxidizing filtration media: This type of treatment consists of a sealed tank filled with one of several media. Water passes through and is oxidized and filtered by the media. Most will remove sulfur compounds as well as iron. These are relatively easy to operate and what I would recommend for the average homeowner. There are several different media that can be used:

• Manganese greensand: water runs through for treatment. The media must be regenerated with potassium permanganate. Care must be taken with dealing with potassium permanganate as it readily dies organic material, such as your skin, a purple-brown color. Some people are quite comfortable dealing with the chemical; others are not.
• Synthetic greensand: This is essentially the same as option (a) but consists of a coating of greensand on a silica sand core so does not require as much backwash flow. Service flow rate is 2 - 5 gpm/sqft. Backwash flow rate is 12 gpm/sqft.
• Birm: This media acts as a catalyst to force oxidation of iron. While it does not need to be regenerated, it does need fairly high dissolved oxygen in the water. If your water does not have adequate dissolved oxygen (and it probably doesn't since it is well water), air injection would be necessary prior to the birm. Additionally, birm requires a minimum pH of 6.8. Service flow rate is 3.5 - 5.0 gpm per sqft. Backwash flow rate is 11 - 20 gpm, depending upon water temperatures and desired bed expansion.
• Pyrolox: an ore that oxidizes then filters the iron out. It does not need regeneration, but needs to be backwashed (to rinse out the iron) at a high rate. pH range is 6.5 - 9.0. This type of filter works very well, but backwash is critical. Service flow rate is 5 gpm/sqft. Backwash is 25-30 gpm/sqft. Backwash daily.
• Terminox: Similar to Pyrolox, but a proprietary formula . It does not require as much backwash flow rate and is more resistance to a low pH. The particulars are only available from the company that sells it. Backwash daily.
• Filox: Also similar to Pyrolox. pH range 5.0 - 9.0. Backwash flow 12-15 gpm/sqft. Service flow 6 gpm/sqft. It must be backwashed daily.

There are two different flow rates you need:

1. SFR, referenced by justalurker. You can obtain this number with a bucket and a stopwatch. Start by running several fixtures at the same time. Run the fixtures you reasonably expect to run at the same time during normal use and one more. With all of them running, fill the bucket of known volume and time it. Then calculate GPM.
2. Max flow your system is capable of delivering. This is important when you are going to install an iron-removal system since the media is quite dense and requires significant flow for backwash. For this, open up an outdoor hydrant close to the well house and time how long it takes to fill the bucket. Calculate GPM.

The only way to know what you have in your water is with analysis. Any water treatment pro should test your water, but most of them have no analytical experience and their numbers vary wildly. Pushing water sheen around with your finger won't tell you anything - any number of things can cause that particular phenomenon and it is only suggested by water treatment "pros" that are either lazy, cheap, or ignorant. Your state's web site should have a list of certified water labs that can provide quality analysis. You want to know: TDS, pH, hardness, ferrous iron, ferric iron, sulfates, alkalinity, manganese, any other items that are particular to your area (the lab will know what those are).

Once you have analysis in hand, talk to all the local water treatment pros you can. Sadly, the residential water treatment business is full of snake oil salespeople, but there are still some really solid professionals out there if you look hard enough. Good luck!

THANK YOU!!! Hope that doesn't get old but I am sincere about it.

I have space for an iron removal system but of course would like to keep the cost down as much as possible. Seems like the Pryolox and Terminox systems have reasonable up front costs and minimal reoccurring cost.

I took water samples to a real lab last Thursday and they are doing an analysis for me. I will have to check if they are doing both ferrous and ferric iron (iron was listed but I can't remember if it was both) and manganese. I believe everything else was on the list.

I will do the flow test tomorrow too.

Thanks again and will post once I get my test results back.

First you identify exactly what needs to be treated to make your well water safe and nice.

Then you decide what is the best (most reliable, most effective, easiest to service (live with)) hardware to treat what needs to be treated and will work well together with reasonable maintenance.

Next you shop for the best components at the most reasonable (not the cheapest) prices because the bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is gone.

Finally, you said "I am proficient with plumbing/mechanical/electrical and would feel very comfortable installing the system" so remember that when you do it yourself there's no one else to blame.

BTW, there are a number of the highest quality control valves that regenerate the resin with treated water not just a Kinetico.

I have much higher iron than you and for the last 3 years had been relying on a calcite filter and softener to remove it. I was never really happy with this system, and Alice advised me to put in a dedicated iron filter. It was great advice. I recently had a Katalox filter installed, and it works great. Katalox is a relatively new material, and it doesn't require as high a flow rate to backwash as Pyrolox or Filox. Another benefit of having both an iron filter and softener, is that you won't get bad water in the house if someone flushes a toilet while one of the filters is backwashing.

So I am really confused now because I got the results back from my NELAP accredited lab and they seem very different to me than what the two salesmen have told me.

My $100 results (salesmen results in parenthesis):

pH 7.2 (7.0)

Iron <0.05ppm (3ppm)

Hardness 2.8 gr/gal (20 gr/gal)

Chloride 19.9 ppm (not tested)

Sodium 1.9 ppm (160 ppm)

Nitrate/N <1.0 ppm (not tested)

Total Dissolved Solids 184 ppm (280 ppm)

The lab samples for these results were taken from the kitchen faucet inside the house in sterile bottles provided by the lab (two with acid and one without).

The salesmen samples: One salesman took a sample out of the hose bib/hydrant on the side of the house and the other salesmen took it from a hose that was hooked up just past the pressure tank.

Both the original posted salesman sample and the lab sample were taken on the same day - two weeks after moving in and using the new well.

This is a newly built house that we started living in just after Christmas. We have solid tempered glass in the shower and are definitely seeing white buildup and the toilets have some staining. The water does have a rust like smell but looks clear.

I want to buy a system but am at a loss to size it now. Maybe the lab slipped a decimal on the hardness? Would the iron include include ferric and ferrous iron? Could staining be from another metal (manganese) that was not tested for?

Just spoke to the lab and having them run a separate Manganese (Mn) test for $60 to see if that is the staining culprit. This could also be the film on the water in the toilet tank. They did not have the split between Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg) so the entire 2.8 gr/gal could be Ca only and responsible for the white buildup.

Should get the results next week as they have to do a different flame set up in their AAS machine and they like to run them at the same time.

Why don't you ask the salesmen to come back out and test the water from the kitchen faucet? Does the kitchen water run through any filters that the other water didn't go through?

I like the idea of having him test it again and showing him the lab report afterwards and seeing what his explanation is for the difference. We have no filters or treatment systems. It goes from the well to the pressure tank to the house.

If the sales folks took their samples when the well was quite new, your water could have changed substantially. It's always a good idea to run the water for a few minutes prior to taking a sample.

The samples for the lab and the salesman were taken on the same day about three hours apart from each other. The lab sample at around 1100 and the salesman about 1400. I ran the kitchen faucet for a minute before filling the sample bottles and I ran the hose bib a little before the salesman took theirs. People had been up around the house in the morning too taking showers, doing dishes, and what not so I would think we would have cycled the well several times before I had taken the samples.

I really just want to know what the right numbers are so the system can be sized appropriately and am not looking to call anyone out on a scam.

I will take the word of a certified analyst over a sales pitch all day every day. The only potential issue with the lab numbers is the iron, if they filtered out any particulate before analysis. You could call and ask if your analysis includes everything that was in the sample. Other than that, your staining is most likely being caused by something other than iron. It could be manganese (typically gray or black stains), copper, organics/tannins in your water, bacteria. White deposits could also be silica or non-hardness salts, although even 2.8 gpg will leave spots on glass. It is also possible that what you are seeing is just the product of a brand new well and it will go away with time.

If it were my water, I would start with a simple particle filter (a big blue or equivalent 4" diameter x either 10 or 20 inches), preferably with a clear housing and just watch it for a while. It could be that you are intermittently getting some really fine silt, not atypical for a new well. If you do get a softener, size it for your expected flow - if you size it for hardness it may be too small for the flow.

I just got my water results back.

Manganese 0.05 mg/l

Copper 0.01 mg/l

So it appears that the manganese is right at the maximum contaminant limit (MCL) of 0.05 mg/l. Copper is very low with an MCL of 1.3 mg/l.

From what I have read, the health concerns with manganese really don't start until 0.5 mg/l but you can get some definite taste and staining issues where our water is testing. I still need to ask the lab if they filtered out any particulate.

I ordered a clear filter housing 4.5x20 with some 5 micron sediment filters so will start with that as Alice recommended. I am thinking if the iron is particulate then this should grab a good deal of it. I plan on going then to a Terminox/Katalox for the manganese and guessing ferrous iron I have. Finally, onward to the Fleck 9100SXT for the Calcium. Still need to grab my spouse or kid to help me with the flow rate testing to really size things appropriately.

This sound like I am making sense?

Pay close attention to that clear filter housing. I've seen too many
fail for it to be coincidence. I recall reading somewhere that the
plastic used in clear filter housings is not a robust(?) as the plastic
used in the opaque housings, but I don't recall where, and then there's the added concern of
pacific rim QC.

You should install pressure gauges before and after the filter housings so you can see the pressure drop across the element and know when to change it... especially with a 5 micron filter. A shut-off or bypass for the housing isn't a bad idea either.

I'm pretty sure that Katalox also acts as a 3 micron sediment filter, so you might not need the cartridge filter before it. On the other hand, your iron & manganese levels might be low enough that a cartridge filter & softener could handle the problem alone, without fouling the softener resin. One of the pros here would have to answer that.

If you do install a Katalox filter, be aware that, for the first few weeks, the PH of your water will go very high. Something about the high PH combined with the softener will make your water feel extremely slippery (so much so that you might slip in the shower/bathtub if your non-slip surface has worn off). After this, the PH gradually starts to go down, and the water will return to feeling like normal softened water.

Thanks all for your continued input as I would be really at a disadvantage without!!

Alice - checked with the lab and they did not do any filtering and this is their typical protocol with drinking water

Justalurker - I will definitely keep an eye on it. The plastic is PET and rated to 120 psi and several good reviews on the housing so hoping this one is good. I ordered two pressure gauges that install on the housing upstream/downstream but am not sure what pressure drop I should consider as filter change time. I like valves too so I am planning on putting one before and after each element of the system for isolation and potential bypass.

Greasetrp - My manganese is pretty high so I think I am planning on going with a filter. I like what I have read on the Katalox with respect to its ability to remove the minerals and the reduced amount of backwash it requires. I have had the experience you are talking about at my inlaws house and just about had a slip to the doctor! Hopefully that is a one time occurrence in installation of the Katalox and not every time is backwashes.

I am hoping we get above freezing shortly and I can do my SFR tests and get this system ordered!

Okay so the weather would just not cooperate but managed to get out after our little blizzard went by and did some pump cut in/out timing an volumetric testing. Volume was 5.25 and 5.0 gallons from pump cut out to cut in. Timing was 13.5 and 12.6 (measured twice) so my flow is:

23.3 GPM (5.25 gal / 13.5 sec * 60 sec/min)

and

23.8 GPM (5.0 gal / 12.6 sec * 60 sec/min)

Seems like more than enough backwash potential for any of the Katalox/Terminox/Filox media.

My softener calcs for weekly generation:

2.8 gr/gal * 60 gal/person/day * 4 people * 7 days = 7,704 grains

So I now understand what alice was saying to size for service flow versus hardness but what are the downsides for an oversized softener? I am thinking based on potential worst case flow we would be around 10GPM which looks to be a 40,000 grain system.

The downside to an oversized softener is that you use more salt/water than is strictly necessary to maintain soft water. If a softener is extremely oversize you run the risk of channeling. 1.5 cubic ft does not present a channeling issue.

Generally, I like to see a softener regenerate every seven days to prevent compaction of the softener bed. However, in clean waters without excessive TDS or particulates, we can mitigate the somewhat excessive salt and water usage by running longer between regenerations. Other than the manganese you've got great water, and I would be comfortable with regens every 21 days. However, start out with a seven day override until the iron/manganese filter operation is steady and analysis shows it to be functioning properly. Then, provided you don't have particulates after the iron/manganese filter you can increase the override to 21 days. The difference between seven and 21 days between regens is ~25 lb of salt and 100 gallons of water.

It will be well worth your time and money to invest in two test kits and use them monthly. Together they are a little pricey, but you'll get 100 tests each so they will last a long time:

1. Hardness: Hach 5-B
2. Iron/manganese: Hach IR-20

I purchased 2 Kinetico K5s along with Kinetico water softeners at 2 different homes, spending over $10,000 on Kinetico products over the last 10 + years.

I am supposed to get a 10 parts warranty from Kinetico since I purchased the K5 and the water softener.

The plastic K5 filter bracket, on the K5 installed July 2012, 5 years ago, broke recently and flooded my home.

Kinetico is saying they have no responsibility whatsoever and will not even replace the defective K5, let alone pay for any water damages from the broken K5.

Absolutely terrible customer support.

Avoid Kinetico. Their warranty is not worth the email that contains it.

I am filing complaints with Consumer Reports, my state Attorney General office, etc, but the best I can do is share my poor Kinetico experience and hopefully save someone else this heartache.

I just bought a Multipure Aquasana under sink carbon block filter and it works great. Customer service with Multipure is excellent so far. Multipure is NSF certified to remove a multitude of harmful chemicals.

Kinetico is not NSF certified for anything.

A whole house water softener is rarely needed anyway, and many home professionals consider a water softener a waste of money.

By the way, the Kinetico water softener also leaks and never worked well. Kinetico is telling me that I am on my own, however Kinetico also forces you to only buy their brand filters through the local dealer. If that local dealer is incompetent, you are out of luck.

Avoid Kinetico at all costs and save yourself the headache and money.