Cultivars are frequently less vigorous than species or wild types. In fact many were from lines actually bred to behave appropriately in perennial beds.

Most of the cultivars in our garden just don't seed or run. Where we have a number of the same cultivar, like Brunnera 'Dawson's White' and Phlox 'Nora Leigh' it's because over the years more have been purchased and added.

I find one pleasant exception to cultivar not seeding or running around, in our garden, is Primula japonica 'Miller's Crimson'. It's an exception I welcome, since it's really only a gentle seeder and it's a compact little plant with a lovely flower colour.

Consequently, we have quite a few 'Miller's Crimson' flowering every June.

Below: Last June 6: the trilliums are clocking out and the japanese primulas clocking in.

duplicate post

This post was edited by TexasRanger10 on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 18:51

I was using "wild types" in the usual biological meaning of the term.

Wikipedia: "Wild type (abbreviation wt) refers to the phenotype of the typical form of a species as it occurs in nature".

In terms of plant breeding, cultivars have been bred away from wild types (viz. artificially selected for larger flowers, clump forming growth, shorter stature, or whatever).

Theoretically at least, wild types have been selected for, over generations, by natural selective agencies in the environments in which they grow, which is why, other things being equal, they should be well adapted to those environments.

When I first started gardening here I bought 8 'Autumn Joy' plants on sale and which have been divided and moved around the yard as the gardens have expanded. Other plants were bought in twos and threes and also divided if I wanted more plants but most have been limited to three to five plants.

Plants that are now in larger groupings are the self seeders and root spreading ones, echinacea, phlox, and monarda, geraniums, veronica.

nepeta 'walker's low' - 12
chrysanthemum 'sheffield pink' - 5
phlox 'david' - 4
peony 'karl rosenfeld' - 4

Sorry they're all common things, for me multiple copies means cheap.

erigeron karvinskianus - but because it seeds everywhere but is always welcome. Like Texas Ranger, I also have numerous shrubby salvias (because they are a piece of cake to propagate and flower for months on end).
Growing mostly from seed does tend to lead to multiples so single plants are more of a rarity than swathes, drifts and clumps.
Roses, particularly wildlings, although not herbaceous perennials, are the most ubiquitous shrub in all my gardens.

Thanks camp for agreeing, they are eazy peazy not to mention inexpensive and undemanding of natural resources like water. I find the 'why' (subjective personal tastes aside) is more interesting than the 'what' on this subject. I agree with cecily that multiples mean cheap but they also prevent what I think of as "The one of each kind garden" that often comes off looking more like a plant collection, often complete with the commercial plant tags by each new purchase, rather than a garden.

I've noticed nature at her most beautiful has a tendency to repeat herself so its seems like good form to follow that lead.

I've just had a look at those...Arizona Apricot'...maybe bit too orange for me....

I wasn't thinking you could substitute 'Arizona Apricot' for 'Cherry Brandy' but just like yourself with Gaura I have had a bit of difficulty getting my AA gaillardia to survive the winter. But they provide such great color for such a long time that I plant them as one would annuals..

It seems I have quite a bit of scabiosa Butterfly Blue. It survives very well planted in between daylilies. Doesn't mind being stepped upon occasionally. Not a good looking plant for sure but at the end of year it's flowering strong and appreciated.
In numbers daylilies and hosta are the winners.

Rouge was referring to cultivars at the beginning of this thread.

And a growing number of these are patented.

So how legal is it to divide these perennials and move them around your garden? Should you throw away excess plant material away or can you give them to neighbours?

I'd certainly assume that giving excess material to the local horticultural society for their sales is illegal.

This post was edited by SunnyBorders on Wed, Jan 7, 15 at 16:22

I have buckets of Nepeta 'Walkers Low', Panicum 'Northwind', Allium (several unknown species/cultivars as well as 'Twister Blue'), Rudbeckia 'Goldsturm', bearded iris, unidentified Hostas and I'm sure many more that I can't recall.

Most of these I only have so many simply from division over the years. SunnyBorders, as you point out I may well be a criminal for propagating trademarked plants.

I love groundcovers/creepers and have lots of those too. Though I often consider patches of these types of plant as one unit, even though they consist of multiple rooted plants.

I am wintersowing this year and expect that next year my list of many will be longer!

As referred, I am that person that had one of everything..or maybe I was. I was a rabid plant collector, but I think I'm finally growing up and deciding that beds with repeating elements look more harmonious. I still want to have lots of species diversification and have multiple season interest in beds...but hey, it's a step forward, right ?

As to the legality of plant propagation, I think it's mostly a moot issue as long as you're not offering them for sale. I've never yet seen the person that divides their succesful patented (for example) daylily and says I only paid for one of these, I have to throw the other twenty away. Umm yeah...not happening. I happen to be the type that likes to buy one and see how it does, then I either buy more or propagate it. Since I'm mostly interested in the wild species, versus the foo foo patented designer plants (example in point, multicolor echinacea hybrids that sulk and/or rush headlong to throw themself off the cliff, versus the straight E. purpurea that self-seeds in the lawn), I don't think anyone is much interested in my propagation legality. Point of fact, I don't believe there's anything that can even claim to be a named variety in my last two yards, with the exception of a couple of crinums that actually have a name.

As to which specific plants I have the most of. I did a sowing of coreopsis lanceolata in August, and I have about thirty seedlings in Dixie cups waiting for a nice February day to be set into the ground. I'm leaving them outside, except I brought in last night, because we are suppossed to be 4 F tonight...I'll take back out in a day or two, when the lows are back up to about 25F, they're on a cold porch now...should be enough protection.

In the past, I'd have said the things I had the most of were probably the roadside planting of annual gaillardia pulchra that I immensely enjoyed in Oklahoma. I sure miss having it now, I'll try to see if I can get some going on the wetter land here in Arkansas...not sure.

Greenhearted, it's the uncertainty that bothers me.

Just how much of a criminal does one have to be a real criminal?

And, for me, there's also other uncertainties.

For instance, I believe that the characteristic(s) that make a cultivar distinctive (viz. legitimate) have to be stable.

On the other hand, Phlox 'Peppermint Twist' (at least in our garden) commonly shows reversions back to the parent plant, P. 'Candy Floss'.

Should that invalidate the patent? Or does inadequate testing for stability prior to the granting of the patent not matter once the patent has been granted?

Below: one plant (August 5, 2013), the front part satisfying the patent description for 'Candy Floss' and the back satisfying the patent description for 'Peppermint Twist'.

Last year, I saw a similar reversion in Phlox 'Twister'.

Lobelia siphilitica, Anise Hyssop 'Golden Jubilee' and Jacob's Cline Monarda are taking over. I have to divide and relocate them next spring.

I do have respect for the amount of money and time researchers and breeders have put into the development of cultivars and I would not wish to infringe on their rights, so I think your question is a valid one, SunnyBorders.

My personal feeling, which has no basis in legality only my own brand of morality, is that it is criminal to make a financial profit from the division of trademarked plants.

It may be frowned upon to propagate patented plants (say that three times fast!) for personal use but I can't imagine that there is any basis for a lawsuit. Besides, the alternative of throwing away perfectly good plants seems a greater offense to me, especially in the home garden scenario.

Shade garden...... epimedium and Lenten rose.
Sun garden.....daylilies. I know there are some who aren't fans of daylilies due to the foliage looking ugly later in the season, but I luckily don't find that to be the case in my garden.

ha!! ... weeds of course... lol ... perennial weeds ...

ken

sunny patented plants have to show stability over several generations-if they revert they no longer meet the patent description and are not covered.

Good common sense, GH!

Interesting, davids10.

Plant patents in general?!

From the patent description for 'Peppermint Twist', one reads "The following traits have been repeatedly observed and are determined to be the unique characteristics of 'Peppermint Twist'. These characteristics in combination distinguish Peppermint Twist as a new and distinct cultivar of Phlox".

However, only one of the six apparently isolated characteristics listed refers to flower colour conformation. The others seem quite general for modern garden phlox. In fact, the last one, the most general of all, is; "Good garden performance"!

The disclaimer(?) comes before that; namely, "The cultivar Peppermint Twist has not been observed under all possible growing conditions. The phenotype may very somewhat with variations in environment and cultural practice such as temperature and light intensity without, however, any variance in genotype".

I'm guessing that the latter is said to indicate that all plants sold as 'Peppermint Twist' are clones, as we're lead to believe they would be.

I have the most alchemilla. I started with about 4 plants, then had a lazy summer with no dead heading to speak of. Voila! A dozen or so babies sscattered around the yard. Here is an example, these in the foreground were self seeders. It is a good thing I like them

Sherry

Sherrygirl, a very pretty picture.

Reminds me there's no real reason to fear shade!

How could these have slipped my mind LOL. Persicaria bistorta 'Superba', most of the Centaurea montana has been pulled it kind of got out of hand when I was laid up for a year.
Annette

Again, so pretty, Annette.

Glad you got back in action.

Thanks SB, I made a few changes last year, besides getting rid of most of the centauria (can you ever get rid of it completely) that wispy bit of black bamboo at the back of the picture has been replaced by a lespedeza underplanted with phuopsis stylosa and the wisteria which was bought as a vine turned out to be a grafted tree, no wonder the darn thing wouldn't climb up the pole. I had visions of wrapping the vine around the arms, no such luck it has been moved to another spot so now on the lookout for another vine.
Another change, I did have a rather big patch of ladies mantle, that has been removed, I replaced it with a little flag stone step and path using the stone we had around a little pool, it was getting to be a hassle keeping the forever falling leaves out so goodbye pool. Now I have easier access to the rest of the flowerbed not showing in the picture.
Annette

I have a lot of many species of salvias, scutelarias, Nolinas, a larger and growing patch of Phlox pilosa. Agarita, cenizo, Blackfoot daisy, Gutierrezia sarothrae, I do not have a preponderance of anyone thing but I do have heathy growing populations of many.I am a loose negligent overload that is uncomfortable with overlording . I am friendly with the unruly. I like that seedlings surge and move around, always changing the look of my domain.

Belamcanda Chinensis (blackberry lily)

I have dozens, and have scores more coming up from seed.

Other than that, I have hundreds of hostas, and daylilies.

dave

The greatest number of plants of any cultivar that I have purchased was a flat of 24 robust seedlings of Echinacea 'Cheyenne Spirit' in 3 inch pots. Bought them in fall of 2013 and they were 1/2 off at $1.50 each.

I have started numerous Ech. varieties from seed, and could have started them myself a little cheaper, but it turns out that it was a pretty good deal. Swallowtail currently has Cheyenne Spirit seeds at the exorbitant price of $7.99 for 10 seeds!!

Ken, your post made me giggle... because its true in my garden too

Wantonamara, I can identify with your sentiment. My gardens and borders often look a little wild and I love it that way. To my eye, too much organization in a garden feels ... well, unnatural.

Lovely shot of the blackberry lily, dave. A friend gave me some seeds which I have wintersown

Sounds like you got an excellent deal on your 'Cheyenne Spirit', terrene!

I have more than a dozen of several peonies: sarah bernhardt, festival maxima, mons jules elie, karl rosenfeld and red charm. Oh yes, cheddar surprise too! Can you tell I love peonies? I also have plenty of autumn joy sedum. Hyssop, comfrey and yarrow are under each of a dozen fruit trees, and I have a nice size patch of gooseneck loosestrife.

I don't tend to plant multiples. I'm a collector at heart and love to try different things and experiment.

It might be more harmonious to plant en masse/groups/naturalistic swathes, but at the end of the day it wouldn't please my inner plant geek, lol.

The only real exception is the three Deschampsia 'Northern Light's I planted this year. I've had one for many years and adore it. It is the kind of small plant that gets lost on its own though...hence the reason I popped a couple more in beside it.

Geranium maccrorhizum is one that I have allowed to spread to form several large patches. It is such a useful plant for dry shade and takes root competition well!
CMK

If one doesn't count self-seeders or woody plants, I have more Agastache rupestris than anything else right now. I never know if it will survive the winter here, and so I add a few each year since I really like it. The last couple of winters I haven't lost any (knock on wood) and I even had one volunteer, so I now have something more than half a dozen of these.

Goldsturm Rudbeckia - 50? They spread like crazy forcing us to weed them out each spring. But we love 'em in August.

Caesar's Brother Siberian Iris - 10. Plus many I have gifted. It grows so vigorously here that it must be divided. A great plant because the foliage looks like a beautiful ornamental grass into fall.

Halcyon Hosta - 10. This beautiful blue hosta is hardy, vigorous and easily divided. Plantlets have emerged from the remains of the crown following transplant.

Palace Purple Heuchera - 5. Easily divided. Sprouts from previous home whenever it is transplanted.

Sherrygirl, I keep meaning to get a "Lady's Mantle" plant...love how it makes water droplets look like diamonds.

But in your same picture do I spy "Chameleon plant" closer to the bottom right hand corner :(?

Ladies Mantle after the rain

That's it Annette! Love those glass like prisms of water.

Persicaria bistorta 'Superba', most of the Centaurea montana has been pulled it kind of got out of hand when I was laid up for a year.

Annette that picture is one of the prettiest most lush I recall seeing on this forum....wonderful.

(What vine uses that obelisk I see?)

Rouge, I planted the clematis 'Will Barron' I thought but when it bloomed it wasn't so out it comes this spring. I still want to plant a clemie there, montanas are too rampant, I think double flowering are out too. Something white might work, I'm open to suggestions.

Annette

-Annette, how about one of the alpina Clems? Those are so lovely and delicate. I think there are a couple white varieties of it available if the blue/purples don't suit....
CMK

Lobelia siphilitica (blue lobelia). Grows like a weed in our yard, even in sunny spots. Probably give away several hundred baby rosettes every year.

Larry

Hellebore plants are all over my yard. I have singles and doubles..... thousands and thousands

Annette,

Both Yukikomachi and Huldine are excellent white flowering clematis. (I have both but Yukikomachi has done better so far).

Here is "Yuki" from a couple of summers ago:

{{gwi:2119959}}

This post was edited by rouge21 on Fri, Jan 30, 15 at 17:24

Rouge,
Although I don't have it I'm familiar with Huldine, it's nice but 'Yukikomachi' WOW!!! I love, love, love it. I'll be looking for that one, it just might fit as the spot I have for it is in light shade most of the day.

Annette

Rouge - What a perfect pairing, I really like "Yuki". Such soft colors. Gorgeous!

Thanks both of you. Clematis and roses (climbers) go so well together. Here is a closer view of the flowers of "Yuki" (from late June 2014).

(Now that I think of it I got this particular clematis from the just recently defunct mail order Garden Import. You will probably have difficulty sourcing this particular variety. It aint going to be at CTire or HDepot!)

This post was edited by rouge21 on Fri, Jan 30, 15 at 18:38

Now I'm really depressed :(. Garden Import is where I bought the 'Rebecca' I lost, it was really red, nothing I've seen sold as Rebecca has even come close to the one I got from GI. Rouge if you ever see a mail order source for 'Yuki' please let me know.

Annette

aftermidnight-you are right, Rebecca is really RED, I planted it last year and can't wait for bloomtime.
Most of, daylilies, clematis, peonies.

Rebecca is really RED

Three summers ago I was on a tour of residential gardens and came across this clematis:

{{gwi:2119960}}

I think it is a "Rebecca" and at that time it was hard to source that particular clematis. The one I finally got gives a beautiful bloom or TWO each season but that's it! (To be fair it doesnt get enough sun).

Rouge, in the meantime I could always replace the wrongly named clematis with 'Omoshiro' I have this one in a pot, also bought from GI. It wasn't doing too good where I had it planted so dug it up and planted it in a gallon pot last summer. Just noticed this morning it had two strong buds showing at soil level and two above. This might work climbing out of the patch of Mt. Bluet.

A few years ago I divided an old (50+ years) clump of Christabel iris that was no longer blooming well because it was so overcrowded. I divided again last year and now have more clumps than I can count. I gave away hundreds of rhizomes at that time, too. A few were mushy and got thrown into the compost heap, but those grew leaves anyway! I don't think I could kill this plant if I tried, so it's a good thing I like it!