The Complete Works of Shakespeare
because he said everything in his wisdom, his characters are wonderfully drawn, his poetry is the best of all. He moves me to every possible emotion.

A History of Western Philosophy - Bertrand Russell
which is just what it says it is. He sums up all the important ones from pre-Plato and Aristotle, to the 20th century.

And I'm stilll thinking about a 3rd one..... It must make us laugh, must show us things human, wise, and thereby teach - but never be didactic. And it should NEVER even imply that Men are 'better' than Women - or vice versa, may I add. Which is why I would never choose to keep any of the worlds big religious tomes.

How about the Oxford Dictionary

Heck, we can use three books right now!

I did love that book, and movie (btw, do not bother to see the horrible remake. Its not even the same story) Anyway...

We are assuming of course that this future generation of that time would know how to read. I suspect that before they can have civilization they need to have a community. They need to learn to work together to solve problems, find food, and to help each other. They need to learn how to do basic trade and barter, how to build and use fire, how to construct safe and secure places to live. As interesting as the question is, I am not sure a great work of literature is going to help.

However, the person going to the future could do much worse then bring Danile Boorstin's history series: The Discoverers, The Creators, The Seekers, not for the people but for her self to understand how a civiliazation is even built.

However

Tough one! Watching the movie recently, it occurred to me that the three-book-question would make a good parlour game.

Off the top of my head, I'd go along with Dido and Cece for Shakespeare and the OED, and add a really thorough introduction to cookery (but most emphatically not by Delia Smith).

Either that, or the first four books of the Hitchhiker trilogy (in one volume, if such a thing exists).

How about the History of (Western?) Civilization by Durand?You know, One must know history,m so as not to repeat it!

I can't go along with Shakespeare. His view of the poor damsel, sitting in the drawing room while the father arranges her life, is not one that I think that a new civilization would want to foster. His women seems to need protection from the world. Very unrealistic for building a new one. He also had the problems of Social Order, servants, upper class, elite, etc. Not the sort of thing that you would want to encourage in a New Order. Great writing, but not the kind of outlook on daily life that our new civilization would need.

We would need books where the woman is encouraged to be independent and shoulder as much responsibility as the man. Some old books, while corny and poorly written, that told of the problems of raising a family in the worse of circumstances, would be more apt to inspire the strugglers of the future. Sort of a "If they could do it, then so can I." They spoke of the honesty and integrity of hard work and cooperation with the fellow man.

I agree with Agnes about Shakespeare being of little help. Something more pragmatic, along the lines of pioneer life, might be more germane, IMO.

I've found the Durants' history of Western Civilization set to be flawed, but possibly the Russell would be more balanced.

For spiritual needs, Viktor Frankel's "Man's Search for Meaning."

Really thought-provoking question.

Shakespeare's women being a 'poor damsel sitting in the drawing room, while the father arranges her life, Agnespuffiin? Needing 'protection from the world? Who - Lady Macbeth? Gertrude? Rosalind? Beatrix? Portia? Nerissa? Cordelia? Goneril? Regan? Audrey? Phoebe? Hyppolyta? Hermia? Titania? Helena? Diana? Even poor Juliet, all of 14, rebelled against the grownups and went her own way; Desdemona defied her father; Miranda was well on her way to making up her own mind.

And as to his 'social order', he couldn't help what he was born into but he doesn't necessarily condone what he sees when it conflicts with his wonderfully wise and ethical view of the world and of humanity. He pulls Kings off their thrones; he reverses fortunes; he promotes fools to see what they will do; he shows us heaven and chaos. He SHOWS us the wise and the good and the wicked; and the motivations of people; and the wonders and the pitfalls; and then he lets it all go ('My revels now are ended') - because, after all, as many people say it's not REAL, is it? Only fiction. (And here, for that last bit, I'm speaking with deepest irony, with heavy,sardonic tones.)

Dido

You cannot have 'Great Writing' without a great mind to do it.

Discuss.

Dido

Yes, but the question presupposes that YOU (as the bringer of the books) ARE the Great Mind. ;-)

By the way, any other opinions as to which books you'd choose?

If practicality is the consideration, what about the Foxfire books if anyone remembers those?

True, Dido, very true!! But were these women representative of all society at that time? They fought against the status quo, but look at the men of the time. Were they the role models that we want in our new civilization? Were these people without funds? Short of food? Living in dangerous times?

They had "civilization" with it's laws and morals as a guide. It was there. It had not collapsed. I don't think that Shakespeare for all his insight in the human condition, provides a guide for the conditions that may be present when that "civilization" collapses.

I had been thinking about this as to what sort of book I had read in the past that would be helpful and inspiring under sort of "civilization" that might exist in dire times in the future. At first I thought about the books about the trials of the families trying to make it in the American West. Then I remembered one that I read not too long ago about a ship of convicts sent to Australia. Sorry, I can't remember the title.

Now, if there was ever a case of people starting a new civilization, this would be it. The people were not the best of society. They had little or no goods and they were on their own. It was a lesson in how people could come together and accept individuals as they were BUT with restrictions based on the good of everyone. And how, in order to establish the best conditions for the most of them, to handle those who insisted in putting their own desires ahead of those of the community. Sometimes harsh decisions had to be made.

Agnespuffin, I'm not talking about whether they were 'representative of all society at that time'. NOTE WELL: I'm talking about Shakespreare and the world that he shows us. HIS WORLD. And That Is All. Makes me wonder if you've ever read a Shakespeare play, since you've never cited one thing to prove that you have. Drawing rooms? in 16th century England? Oh, come on!

End. I'll say no more here.

Now, now ....... please return to your respective neutral corners.... ;-)

My apologies Dynomutt, I completly misunderstood your question. I was under the illusion that you wanted books that would help re-establish or start a civilization. Obviously I was out of line.
Aggie

Hey, no need for apologies. I don't think you misunderstood my question. I just wanted to see what people thought would be books they could use when reestablishing a civilization.

I was wondering what people would recommend and WHY they would recommend those books. (Yes, the WHY was curiously omitted from my original posting.....)

I found it interesting that some posters selected clearly pragmatic and practical books (e.g. books on cooking) while others selected books that would speak to the soul of the people of the civilization. And then, of course, there are those who selected whimsical books like the Hitchhiker trilogy. I can see their point as well -- I mean, after all, all work and no play made Jack a VERY dull boy! (And I mean Jack Nicholson!)

I figured the question COULD become controversial and contentious but for reasons related to religion, the meaning of life, etc., etc. Who knew it would be contentious because of Shakespeare?! ;-)

I guess if you get a bunch of book-nuts together, they'll argue about Shakespeare and literature until the cows come home. And if you gather a bunch of grammarians together, they'll argue about the placement of a comma in a sentence for hours!

To each his own, I guess. (And don't get me started on lawyers discussing some of the most dry and boring points of law with each other! Man, those guys just won't shut up! They'll even argue on their OWN time, with no one paying them! ;-))

Anyway, I imagine all of this merely shows that we all feel quite strongly about our opinions and interpretations of the great works of literature.

All input and opinions are, in my opinion, welcomed, valued, and equally valid (generally anyway!). So, argue away! (That's what this board is for -- frank discussions about books, literature, and, in some cases, cooking.) ;-)

Can I just point out (with a small giggle) that both the extremely practical (cookery) and the whimsical (Hitchhiker trilogy) came from the same person, i.e. moi? What I would not take into the future is any one single book on philosophy, or statesmanship, or pioneers, or how to lead one's life. Certainly no religious work either!

Why? Because so far not one literate civilization has got things right, in my opinion. Because it strikes me as arrogant to presume that we could teach ethics to the 'primitives' when we can't even agree here and now.

I seconded Shakespeare because his collected works encompass so many timeless situation, and because they are open to interpretation. This would leave it to the future people to make their own sense of it. For example, I've seen an all-female, quite feminist production of The Taming of the Shrew which did not change one word of the text; and a performance of The Merchant of Venice in which Shylock (Dustin Hoffman) was the one person you would care about. Plus, the language. The Eloi need more words!

I don't want Shakespeare for the role models-for that matter, the OED isn't exactly full of practical instructions. But if I am involved in RE-starting a civilization, I would worry less about the mechanics and more about the essence of what I remembered of the culture, and I would want to have that at hand. I'm assuming that memory would still exist-so fire, barter, construction etc. should still be in our ken. I suppose that we should have defined "civilization" before we started listing books. However, my third book would be a book on plumbing and water treatment. Just in case a plumber isn't in my survivor group. In the book Bedknobs and Broomsticks the woman, played by Angela Landsbury in the movie, really finds the sorcerer back in time-and falls in love with HIM-and decides to go back in time and live there. But he gives her a spell to bring back something from her time...and she chooses indoor plumbing. Wise woman.
As a side note, I once did a workshop where you have a list of items and you have to rank them in order of necessity for survival if you are lost in the wilderness. A roll of duct tape, a frisbee, a tarp and a strong rope were the first four, according to experts. Oh-and salt.

I remember the Foxfire books and think that's an excellent suggestion.

"Frisbee, tarp, rope, and duct tape...." Got it, but is the frisbee just for fun and games??? I'm sure you have seen that tiny paperback on the various and sundry uses of duct tape....

I think the frisbee could double as a plate of sorts! ;-)

How about Guns, Germs and Steel? I'd also love it if the movie "An Inconvenient Truth" could be in a book form (maybe it is...) and I would recommend that. I vote for taking care of our environment better the second time around, and maybe these two could help out where mankind took a wrong turn our two.

Frisbee is to be used as a container, cover, sunhat, bowl to dry salt water for the salt...which you have to have or you die.
duct tape for anything from creating a splint to making a pouch to a canteen

I dunno - the more I think of the question, as intriging as it is, the more I think nothing would really work. Civilizations are made, not born or jump started even. For the time machine traveler, I'd have already done lots of my own book work on first contacts, establishing basic communication and trade/bartering, farming methods, and education. From there you can set up a community. Then can come the books (if the 'natives' aren't already coming up with their own oral history themselves)

My 4 inch thick Mechanical Engineering Handbook because civilization doesn't start until some few people are free from hard manual labor long enough to contemplate our place in the universe.

A book, which surely must exist somewhere, of how to build basic musical instruments, with a bit of direction in the back half on basic composition. Because music has great power to take us inside ourselves and to make us seek after greater things.

The third? Machiavelli's The Prince. Civilization also flows from order.

The Foxfire books are a good choice.

No literature. The literature of an alien culture has no meaning without a literature of one's own.

Of course, I cheated. Heinlein did this in a short story, By His Bootstraps in 1941.

Chris --

That's funny. When I first encountered this question, I was in Grade 11 in LA. I discussed it with my English teacher and, at the time, I selected my Chemistry textbook, Machiavelli's The Prince, and ....... I don't remember the third book.

Nowadays, I don't know what books I'd choose. And yes, I'm also an engineer. ;-)

I find it interesting that quite a few of the selections are clearly practical ones (see the choices of chris_in_the_valley) to ensure that the civilization will survive. Then there are those selections that look at the values of that civilization.

And then there's anyanka's Hitchhiker trilogy........ (I have a soft spot for that series of books!) ;-)

Thats to ensure that the civilization maintains a sense of humor, and doesn't take it self too seriously :)

I'm choosing to be flattered that my Dynopal says I think like a teenager. :-)

HEY! I didn't mean it like that! You, you ..... good one though. ;-)

(I can't squirm out of this one, can I?)

;-)

Dybo, I notice that most of us want to restart 'civilisation' along Western lines.
Considering the mess we 'Westerners' have made of the world before and since the written/printed word I feel I would like to start again with some other race or people.
I thought of somewhere in South America but the idea of people already there who were heavy into human sacrifice and so on, put me off . . . I'd be the first one laid out on the alter, for sure.
So I have decided to settle in Poly/Mela/Micro -nesia.
I realise what we know about these peoples from earlier in the last century came from the works of missionaries and then the well-meaning but inaccurate writings of Mararet Mead (who they took for quite a ride) but, before we Westerners brought our so-called civilisation to the area they seemed to do quite nicely.
I also suppose there is a basic population of these people already living there but with no knowledge of our Western ways.
There would be a goodly supply of bread fruit, fish and pigs for food, a pleasant climate so hard work and the difficulty of keeping warm are no longer problems.
No pollution so you could lie back and study the night sky.
There would be no difficulties with myths or religion as I, modest as I am, would assume the role of New Deity.

Just in case things got a bit rocky my three books would be "How to Build a Getaway Vessel in Twenty Minutes" "Smoke Signals for Beginners" and a very detailed set of charts of the Pacific Ocean.

Dyno and everyone, have you considered IF your own Brave New Worlds are going to happen in your own countries, states, cities, with a handful of people or a ready-made population?

I imagined being here-and not able to leave-a la Alas Babylon

> I notice that most of us want to restart 'civilisation' along Western lines.

Thats a very interesting and valid point. I think that might be why I have so much trouble chosing a book. If there is a civilization there already, trying to make it a western one would be like trying nation building. Doesn't work. Such needs to come from within the community. However, given that the book itself where the question is asked is a western book, it stands to reason that most would chose that way. Doesn't make it right, but understandable.

BTW If you make first contact somewhere, and find that they are doing something reprehensible to you (either morally or ethicly or humanely) is it our business to try to change that? And how do you do this without changing much of the culture that isn't upsetting to you, the parts that make this culture unique?

veer, when I've imagined it, its always been among the Eloi from the book. They truely were the people for which that question was asked. They had lived in a world where they were the cattle brought to slaughter, with little thought of much - a blank slate if you will. So it really does have to be built from the ground up. But how do we help that without unduly influencing them with our own cultures values and mores?

veer, you DO realize you have chosen to live in an area highly affected by destructive tsunamis? ;-)

Have I considered if this stuff will happen in my own country/region, whatnot? Well ......... I haven't really considered that possibility. I just live inside my XBOX..... ;-)

cindydavid --

That last question of yours sounds strangely like the reason for the Prime Directive from Star Trek ..... ;-)

Hee, really. Actually its a question anthropologists and others interested in studying cultures have asked for years, so ST was just extrapolating a bit.

Which reminds me of a wonderful Far Side cartoon: Picture of a village of huts, with people running in and out carrying a variety of electronic items. Caption: "run run, the anthropologists are coming!"

Don't know if there is a book, but one taking the Code of Hammurabi and using it as a guide to examine what worked and what proved to be unworkable and unwise would come in handy. I don't remember too much about it, but there were things in it that we wouldn't want to copy, but the frame work was suitable. The Ten Commandments would also provide a workable framework for behavior. It might be that the first thing would be to establish property rights, and that would include the right to protect those rights. For some reason, those things that are written down seem to hold some sort of magic, therefore, more worthwhile.

If civilization has truly collapsed, then the laws that govern property and rights would have probably have become meaningless.

Good point agnespuffin! But does that mean we'll also have to import the idea of lawyers into that reestablished civilization?

I guess they might be a necessary evil, kind of like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. ;-) (With suitable apologies to the lawyers out there........including my mom and dad.)

;-)

I think to keep all lawyers, the law makers ie. Governments, the law-keepers ie. the police/army at bay, our perfect new civilisation would be one in which Common Ownership of property holds sway.

So I see Dyno, surrounded by simple hairy trappers/loggers on a small island in the Rideau river sitting together on a tarp sharing a frugal meal of berries and fungi eaten from an upturned frisbee. They will shortly listen to a reading from one of his three books (titles D?) which, for ease of common communication have been translated into Klingon.
Hljol-Scotty!

Apologies, Vee, but your perfect civilization would be anything but for me. And I'm sure mine would be an anathema to others. To me the nature of man is "to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield" with the natural result being conflict. Settling conflicts with the least violence is the very essence of civilization and that demands some sort of agreed upon code.

I'd bring the Bible, of course.

Then a one-volume encyclopedia, such as the Columbia Encyclopedia.

Then some sort of how-to-survive-in-the-wild book. Sorry I don't the titles of any.

Anyone know how to make soap or candles? Weave? Maybe make deodorant? Paper for more books?

Vee --

Since I'm actually a lawyer (don't hate me!), I'm actually all for keeping around parasites who suck on the teat of humanity. ;-)

I honestly can't see myself eating a frugal meal of berries and fungi. I hear deer tastes good when it's barbecued. ;-)

Who needs paper?! As long as I have rocks and a chisel......

(I'm being ultra-facetious, of course)

The question I see is do you take books that will teach skills to help humanity survive, then as survival becomes less precarious, regain lost skills without having to reinvent them? Or do you take books that represent the great intellectual, moral, literary, artistic, philosophical, and spiritual attainments of humanity? These seem likely to be different sets of books, and I can see an argument for both sides.

As an interesting aside, I once read a science fiction novel with a theme that touched on this. It was A Gift Upon the Shore by M. K. Wren. In this novel, a small remnant of humanity clings to survival after some apocalypse. One member makes it her life's mission to copy and preserve the literary treasures in her reach so that they will not be lost to a future civilization.

Rosefolly

Chris, perhaps I'm getting too laid-back in old age, and laudable as the aims of your 'civilisation' are I don't think I have the energy (or brainpower) "to strive, to seek . . ." etc.
It does seem a pity that conflict is the inevitable outcome of a new improved way of life. I don't suppose you will want to join me on my small but friendly Pacific Island . . . and for you all from the US who may be rather bothered by the idea of 'collective ownership' and obviously set great store on keeping thieving hands off your own property, I only had in mind sharing the frisbee and the tarp (against those tsunamis). Luckily my own toothbrush was in some deep pocket at the time of the End-of-the-World-as-we-Know-it.
There are limits to sharing . . . although I would welcome Carolyn and her soap; eating all that pork makes the mitts a tad greasy.
And Dyno, I'm sure there must be a role for lawyers . . .what did the 'ancient' members of your profession do when it first came into being?
I expect you are familiar with the strange 'John Frum' worship movement in the South Seas.

Here is a link that might be useful: John Frum

Vee, Is that link for real? I thought I was reading an alternate universe edition of Margaret Mead.

I'm all for sharing on a micro level. That is a survival stategy, after all. I'll even go with the Bedouin tradition of sharing with visitors. But universal sharing? No.

Especially toothbrushes. I read somewhere that the ultimate test in contemplating marriage is to ask yourself the question, "If I had to, could I share his toothbrush?"

Vee, I'll share the soap (as soon as I learn how to make it) if you will bring along some English lavender for scent. I don't imagine fat renderings smell too great.

Vee --

If I recall correctly, the concept of lawyering or advocating for a client arose out of the old "trial by combat" concept. You had a champion who fought for your cause and, if your cause was righteous (or if your champion was a good one), you prevailed. So, basically, if we had trial by combat in the reestablished civilization, the downsides to being a lawyer can be a tad, uh, fatal.

I don't know -- I kind of miss those old days of swordplay and daring do. (I'm reading a book on the history of duels and the idea of challenging anyone to swordplay has a certain attractive ring to it. Yes, I fence. That might explain it.)