Not quite the same. Likely, they crossed one parent of the hybrid to something else with a trait they wanted. Then they crossed that back to the origional parent, likely more than once, selecting in each generation. Then they would have inbred and selected. Then made testcrosses to see how hybrids of the new parent do. So the new hybrid might be as little as 1% different from the origional, but the diference should be significant, at least under some conditions. Or it might be as much as 25% different. I can't imagine anything more different than that being given the same name, but I think it would be legal. Walter

Thanks Trudi--I'll do a google search on the ones I want to grow true next year. I hadn't thought of that! Thank you too, for coming up with the winter sowing method and sharing all you know on here. I ran across gardenweb this winter and found wintersowing while I was looking around the site. It was a godsend since the ground was covered with 4 inches of snow and I was already bitten by the gardening bug! I am anxious to find out how it works for me.

Over the years my attitude has changed about the hybrid versus heirloom argument. Where I'm at now is that I believe each has their strengths and their weaknesses and each has a place in someone's garden. The key difference as far as I'm concerned is that you can save your own seed for open-pollinated and heirloom tomatoes, if you grow hybrids you will have to continue buying your seed. If you don't save seeds, I guess this is a moot point. Typically, heirlooms and other open-pollinated varieties were saved because they had a special merit about them that people liked - usually this revolved around taste, but not always. Hybrids on the other hand got a reputation of being bred primarily for production and disease resistance, but this also is not always the case. Long story short, there are some very hearty heirlooms out there that are disease resistant and productive and vice versa there very tasty hybrids out there. You just need to do a little research and some trial and error and you'll eventually find something that will do well that you will enjoy growing. As far as 'big beef', I've always heard good things. It's rarely described as the best tasting tomato, but it's productive, hearty, and you don't have to be the best to be damn good. If it does well for you, and tastes good, I wouldn't care what label it carried, I'd just grow it. P.S. - One additional thought: Any homegrown tomato I've ever eaten, hybrid or heirloom, has always been better than what's on the shelves at the grocery stores.

I would say that Ascot, Dainty Bess, Augusta Luise, Abbaye de Cluny, Rouge Royale, and Twilight Zone, among others, don't fit the bloom shape or growth habit of a classic hybrid tea. Frederic Mistral has a more HT bloom look, but the big bushy growth habit doesn't look like a typical HT, either. Sara Ann what a luscious group you have posted above. I think Crazy Love and Twilight Zone are my favorites. Your CL looks better than any on HMF. Diane