I don't know about the two you are thinking about, sorry. Veilchenblau is nice and almost thornless, but somehow I had an impression that he was not very winter hardy (might be mistaken though). As for other suggestions maybe Himmelsauge, Gem of the Prairies or Russelliana? All three of them at least would not mind company of big lilacs, since they are not very picky about the soil (and quite hardy). Himmelsauge and Russelliana are among my favorites, so I am a bit biased here. :) GotP can get bs quite a bit and from what I remember is not extremely fragrant - though it was growing in my godfather's farmstead, pretty much in total neglect in z4-ish. There also is Leopold Ritter, I was considering getting it for my parents garden in z5, looks to be rather pretty too.

Forgot to address the second part :) I've not seen this rose sucker, personally, and it doesn't look as though it's particularly inclined to. I would say that overall, the leaves look very much like 'Nastarana', but certain other aspects of the plant seem quite different (the fragrance, smaller flowers, and added hardiness, in particular). It also has its first flowers later than most other roses, at least in the far north where it freezes back considerably, another point of difference from multiflora and most hybrid musks. The buds and hips are much more like R. moschata's than they are like multifloras, but it probably has both in its ancestry.

How big it spreads will have to do with how much sun it gets. In a "specimen shrub" full-sun spot, it will be more compact and self-supporting -- but still not a "small" plant. If it's planted in more shade, it will start growing like a climber, reaching taller and wider but not as dense in growth. This explains the wide difference in size estimates posted. :-) ~Christopher

Gorgeous picture of John Cabot, flowersaremusic! Mine hasn't decided if it will survive or not but given your photos I am going to whisper sweet nothings in its ears all winter and hope for good things come spring. Sorry I missed the earlier questions about Wilhelm, Vaporvac. I got mine from Vintage so it's not an option now of course, but I know I've seen him elsewhere since (maybe High Country Roses or Hortico). I don't want to get rid of mine - far the contrary - but I'm afraid he's being crowded out by the more aggressive Heavenly Pink and he's down to a single cane. Until he recovers more fully I'm afraid to take cuttings of him at all. Ratdogheads, Francesca is one of those hybrid musks that has limped along for me in zone 5, but it's not in an ideal spot so don't overly judge it there. It's planted under some limbed up pine trees so the ground can get a bit dry. Heavenly Pink and Darlow's Enigma thrive there, but some hybrid musks like Francesca and Cornelia and Clytemnestra hung on with a few scattered flowers for a few years before two of the three fading (Cornelia is still hanging in there). I've planted some of the less hardy HMusks in my warm zone 6 area like Prosperity to get a better response. As for Danae, I had several copies of her as a mystery plant from RV and they all summarily died over the winter in various places, so I'd say she's not hardy in zone 5 at all. Ghislaine de Feligonde survives fine but is a once bloomer for me and not many blooms at that. Guirlande d'Amour blooms quite nicely if you like that look and it's pretty hardy. Buff Beauty survived a few years in a different spot before dying overwinter and I quite like the flowers. It died pretty quickly in this tough spot, so this year it gets the warm spot as a preferred rose. I think Francesca has a chance for you in a decent spot and perhaps give it a little extra mulch or something for winter protection. You get more reliable snow cover than we do, so that helps your roses even if the weather itself is colder. Cynthia