Regarding MG's assertion that non-conventional ag would require the cultivation of 50% of the Earth's dry surface: According to many sources, the earth's land area is approximately 150 million square kilometers. I think most of us here, being to some extent experts in food production, would agree that in the temperate latitudes, given soil of average arability, annual precipitation of above 15 inches per year, and decent management, the production of food for 500 people per km2 is quite reasonable. I am speaking of a largely non-flesh diet and using all easily available fertilizer sources, notably human and animal effluent. Depending on the climate, many staple food crops can produce human food very abundantly and sustainably. In the tropical latitudes, due to much higher rates of photosynthesis, the production could feed probably much in excess of 500 people per km2. Of course north of about 45 degrees latitude the productivity per land area drops greatly. In any case, we can conservatively take a production sufficient for 500 people per km2 as a global average. So for approximately 7 billion people we arrive at 14 million km2 of averagely arable land, without need of artificial irrigation or degrading land via large-scale grazing. That happens to be extremely close to current estimates of total global arable land, but my description of use (intelligent vs maximized for profit) would allow far more land into the category. Beyond that are huge areas of more fragile lands that can be used in different ways, again with sensible management. All that is required is much more human labor and attention to the matter.

Great thread, CJ. Your collection has me drooling. My list: Allikas, Nash- Orchids Allikas, Nash- World's Most Beautiful Orchids Black, Peter McKenzie- Orchid Growing Grove, David L.- Vandas & Ascocendas Kramer, Jack- 100 Orchids For Florida Kramer, Jack- Orchids For The South La Croix, Isobyl- Orchid Basics Light Marilyn- Growing Orchids in the Caribbean McDonald, Elvin- 100 Orchids For The American Gardener Mee, Margaret- In Search of Flowers of the Amazon Forests Motes, Martin- Vandas, Their Botany, History & Culture Noble, Mary- You Can Grow Cattleyas Noble, Mary- You Can Grow Orchids Noble, Mary- You Can Grow Phalaenopsis, Revised Edition Northen, Rebecca Tyson- Home Orchid Growing, 4th Edition Northen, Rebecca Tyson- Miniature Orchids and How To Grow Them Northen, Rebecca Tyson - Orchids as House Plants Orchid Society Of South East Asia- Orchid Growing In The Tropics Pridgeon, Alec- Illustrated Encyclopedia of Orchids Rittershausen, Wilma- Orchids Rittershausen, Wilma- Success With Orchids Schoser, Gustavo- Orchid Growing Basics Sheehan, Thomas- Ultimate Orchid Soon, Teoh Eng- Orchids of Asia South Florida Orchid Society Presents- An Introduction To Orchids: A Guide to the Growing & Breeding of Orchids South Florida Orchid Society Presents- A"Guide To Growing In The Subtropics, 3rd Edition Starosta & Paul- Orchids White, Judy- Taylor's Guide To Orchids Withner, Carl L -Cattleyas And Their Relatives Vol 1 Plus Ortho, Sunset, a sagging shelf containing back years of AOS bulletins (even after donating many to our OS) and a treasured Jones & Scully catalog. :>) I hope to add the remainder of Wither's Cattleya volumns to my shelf soon. And Oh! to have the Fowlie's. Sigh. Marci

I'm a relatively new rose grower that was, and is, still planning on joining the ARS. I've read all the arguments pro/con and I'm still joining because I believe that change comes from within. Who will be there to replace the "old guard" and give voice to those enjoy growing roses as garden shrubs, pieces of history, wonderful smelling flowers, and objects of beauty? Depending on who you are and what you spend your money on, $50 could be a lot of money. Personally, I've spent $50 dollars on much more fleeting/"dumb" things than a membership to an organization. Would we be having this conversation if the dues cost $10 a year? Just a few months ago, I joined my local rose society. I'm the youngest member there at 34, most members are in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. The leadership of my local rose society fall into the exhibitor camp. The highlight of the society's calendar is the annual rose show they put on. The focus of the pre-show meetings was on exhibition cultural practices (all the pruning advice was for HTs) and preparation/grooming for exhibition. However, I'd say 75% of the society's membership does not exhibit, like myself. The show came and pretty nobody from the society came except the leadership/hardcore exhibitors...the reason? Most of the members, including me, thought our roses weren't "good enough" because we had the strict judging standards drummed into to us. The competition aspect of took precedence over the fact that this was an opportunity to show off flowers to the public. I think the exhibitors were mad because they didn't have other roses for their roses to "smack down" :) The next meeting after the show, the president made a plea to the members to bring roses to the show, no matter what they looked like. She said the public just likes to see roses, they don't care if there's a petal or leaf out of place, or if there's spot. Like Jeri said "Rose Societies SHOULD BE ABOUT ROSES." I'm going to be pushing the idea for more frequent "rose celebrations" and I've been bring bouquets of roses from my garden to each meeting. I have been, and will continue to be a voice at my local society offering a different story about roses other than traditional exhibition HTs. I've planning to approach the society about giving "novice talk" about what I've learned about OGRs, and make people aware of resources such as HMF and GardenWeb, where I've learned so much valuable information. I'm planning to also check out HRF as well, and will spread the word at the local level. You'd be surprised how many people are out there that like roses, but are so bewildered/intimated at the thought of growing them. It seems like for better or worse, ARS is the organization a lot of them have first contact with. There's a lady in my society that "only" has 3 rosebushes, but you can tell she's so eager for advice and information, a lot of which she gets from ARS publications. People think that HTs are the only roses out there for a reason. Throwing one's hands up and walking away is certainly one's choice, but I want to help shape the next generation of rose growers (hoping there is one). Eric

Well I'm NOT a blue person. Indoors I have NO blue. My husband doesn't understand this. I have no idea why I feel this way. Outdoors things are different! I have a blue/yellow/white garden bed which I love. Yes, delphineums, catananche, campanulas, baptisia and more, are mixed with trollius, coreopsis moonbeam, peony Claire de Lune and low growing white clematis and aquilegia. It is a big mix and wouldn't be any fun at all without the blue! There are loads of clematis that are purple or blue/purple, but also some very nice blues I think. You do get into the question of "what is blue?" My husband and I think this could well be a male/female issue! Also, by saying a flower is blue, perhaps a catalogue gains more sales? * Posted by: coolbeans (My Page) on Sat, Feb 2, 02 at 13:12 This is my VERY favorite thread, and I totally agree with all those who feel that there is just "something" about blue flowers; they ARE magical, they ARE very special; and they make me happier than any other color flower. Don't know why...I just started a flat full of Bluebird delphinium seeds I saved from my one lonely plant last year. A bunch of them germinated, so now I can't wait to have a huge stand of them! Maybe they won't bloom this year, but maybe they will. And also "true blue" penstemons, I'm trying for the first time. I can't get enough of this precious color. * Posted by: Anne_Marie_Alb (My Page) on Tue, Feb 5, 02 at 17:47 WOW....... Did anyone realize that this thread started almost 5 years ago... on Feb. 15, 1997!!!!! I am amazed it has survived that long. Probably, the oldest thread still on the top page! I wonder if "Clare B" (who started the thread) is still an active member of the Garden Web!!! I personally love blue flowers (I mean blue, and not purple, which I also like). I can't believe how many blue flowers I am starting from seeds this year... and that was just a pure coincidence! I also love RED flowers.. Maybe, I should start a "red flower" thread! I will first check the archives! * Posted by: Clare (My Page) on Thu, Feb 7, 02 at 20:34 Yes, Ann_Marie, I am still here! I will be a bit sad to see this thread fade away when it hits the 100 posts mark. After that, the threads are closed. I don't think I have any true blue flowers still. "Victoria Blue" Salvia is the closest thing. I use it a lot. It is such a heavy, long bloomer, and about one in twenty of them will survive winter here. Just wish I could predict which would survive so that I could save seed from those alone and perhaps work up a more hardy strain. By the way, the Hydrangeas in Memphis, Tennessee are incredible. Some are so saturated blue that I'd have to call them navy. * Posted by: Dswan (My Page) on Sat, Feb 9, 02 at 22:37 I'm going to add to this extremely long thread only because there really is something to true blue. I grow from seed a very difficult plant to propagate called Penstemon cyananthus or Wasatch Penstemon. I cold stratify and plant these every year in hopes of gettting one or two in my garden every year. Absolutely gorgeous. * Posted by: Rosa (My Page) on Mon, Mar 11, 02 at 10:24 Did no one mention Gentians-now those are blue! (along with my favorite penstemson of course-some are indeed blue). * Posted by: pineshade7b ) on Mon, Apr 15, 02 at 11:02 i agree with gloria mc coy. i love blue and green , they are my favorite colors in anything. just look in my house and closets. blue..ocean, blue jeans, my own eyes are blue and my husband's are green. many reasons to answer -why blue. although i do not "hyperventilate" , if i should go into a nursery and ask for a blue -flowering plant and the staff looks down their nose at me, i'll know now that they are only doing it because they think I'M a snob. until i adopted gardening as a serious hobby i had no idea that blue was a "snob" color. i just naturally began to look into flowers in the colors i liked personally. you learn something new everyday. i would have been hurt and confused to walk into a nursery and be looked at like a pariah, what did i say? now i know, thanks clare. * Posted by: DesertGardner (My Page) on Fri, Apr 19, 02 at 12:38 Wow - I never knew there was such a controversy over the color blue in the garden. After reading all the posts, I now understand why some gardeners prefer the color. And I have to say that I've never met any gardeners whom I would consider snobbish. Most of them are really quite down to earth! (if you pardon the expression...) I recently tried planting a red, white and blue flower bed, with 'Victoria Blue' Salvia being my blue color. It's a little too purple and doesn't look right as a "patriotic" design. I will probably tear out the red and white and keep the "blue" (purple) since it seems to like this desert heat. Someone mentioned black flowers, and I remembered seeing black pansies in the most recent Burpee catalog. They're a beautiful velvety black with a spot of yellow in the center. I think I'll plant some this winter, and start an obsession with black flowers! (just kidding Clare...) -Kara [* Posted by: yeona_sky (My Page) on Mon, Jun 24, 02 at 0:37 I just bought a blue poppy and am nervously watching its progress. My success with blues has been an up hill battle, but that hasn't changed my desire to spotlight it in my garden. Why blue?, again it's a passion with me. Clare, I hope you get the last word on this thread, and I hope you understand Why blue, a little better. * Posted by: Duster (My Page) on Wed, Jun 26, 02 at 23:56 I agree with the many others about getting annoyed when purple is referred to as blue. Maybe that's why I take up the cause of truly blue flowers! 99% of my Delphiniums are the true electric blue ones. I'd love one of the Himalayan Poppies but just not right for my little yard. I like the blue flowers, rather than the blue foliage plants. And no, blue is NOT my favorite color - I have nothing blue in my home decor. I just like the uniqueness of the TRUE blue and my stubbornness to get people to stop calling it purple!!!!