wow! What a great thread! And I only came on the organic forum today because I finally made that compost bin and felt like gathering a little knowledge from fellow gardeners. Boy! Have you guys educated me! Along with the often unreliable words of 'organic' and 'sustainable' to describe gardening practices, where precisely does 'permaculture' fit in? I have had the opportunity to brush the surface of this topic, but haven't put it in perspective completely with the terms 'organic' and 'sustainable' yet. I know there is a permaculture formum on gardenweb, but this thread seems to be on the track of discussing such things, particularly how to "tread lightly on the earth" and how to feed individuals, families, villages and the world effectively. Organic farming is from the heart. It's such a long thread, I've already forgotten who said it. and I've mutilated the text, though hopefully not the meaning. That said, I'm in complete agreement with the sentiment. What we aspire to, ie producing nutritious food from the earth without damaging the earth, can not be regulated in any meaningful way until the whole of community changes thought patterns. The ideas of "nutritious food" and "not damaging the earth" need to be of higher priority than the profits that come of this coaxing life from dirt. Of course, many might counter that statement with thoughts on money efficiency. But here, I say again, these ideals can't be accomplished unless the individual, family, community and world changes thought patterns, especially as related to money and commerce. Well, I suppose that went off on a side-track..but I'd still like to know where you think 'permaculture' relates to the discussion of catchwords in agriculture and what the true wave of the future will be. Organic might be happening now, but how do you think these slacking regulations will affect the future of raising food? Trish

i'm pretty sure HAARP can not be species specific and nearly all of the birds were red-wing blackbirds or a subspecies. it's something specific to those birds & specific to those fish... fireworks please LOL i'm an educated person LOL those birds do not fly in the middle of the night lol. when 'officials' start saying stuff like that it makes me 1. want to see their intellectual credentials 2. disbelieve and laugh at all of their conclusions lol. this will get lost in the news of wed just like the missile fired off the west coast story did...and we never find out the truth because everyone just goes on. just like the 'officials' would like lol. if i lived in arkansas thou i'd be very concerned about what happened to those birds, the fish not so much as that is explainable and right now there are some serious issues w/ birds elsewhere on the planet. ~ liz

Oh, I figure they have their reasons. We found out school is closed on Thursday, only a few mins ago. Wind has been blowing super hard, snow blowing everywhere too. Dh left with the tractor to pull my nephew out of the snow along with a friend that nephew was trying to pull out first. This is our 3rd snow storm in less than a month and not much has thawed. We have hills in the middle of our farm that didn't exist in November. Kids have only missed 2 1/2 days of school because of snow/ice. Of course we have a pretty decent snow plow plan. The worst part for us tonight is the wind chill factor. It's about -14 and going down fast. brrrrr!!! It's hard to breath out there.

Good ideas so far. A few other ideas to keep in mind: Price per pound is good, but also keep in mind price per serving. For instance, a boneless roast is worth much more than bone-in. Compute waste into your end cost calculations. Also, sometimes you can find "individual" serving sizes can actually save you money. For instance, one of my "treats" is occasional snack/junk food. Rather than buy a big bag of potato chips which will go stale quickly when opened, I buy the single serve bags of the assorted chips/popcorn/cheese curls at Aldi. That lasts me 4-6 months and satisfies my treat desire. Certainly more expensive than buying a big bag of generic chips, but factor in the waste (as mentioned before) it still is cheaper. A friend has young kids and buys sliced cheese rather than block since a kid's slice is a slice whether 1/32" thick or 1.5" thick! Granted, they could slice it for them, but they splurge a bit on that with a compensation. A calculator, pen and paper are your best friends for shopping. Just because an endcap says it's on sale doesn't mean it's a good value. Frugal living is not something learned or embraced overnight. It's a lifestyle that you get into more and more. Accept that now and then you'll get fooled on a cost, we all have. For instance, seeing what you think is a good buy and it turns out the size is smaller than usual, or whatever. I always recommend the Tightwad Gazette series to people to use as a learning tool. It gives you ideas to think out of the box as they say. For instance, maybe you can't save money this week on groceries. Don't fret. But how about saving on paper towels? Start using washable rags and ween yourself off paper towels? Perhaps a different toilet paper will work for you? I, and many others, like Scott brand and there's some generics with the same ideal. 1000 sheets per roll and if you start to watch your use (don't go crazy, but pay attention) this can be a very frugal product. Again, factor in the number of sheets since that's how you use it. One roll of Scott is equivalent to 5-7 rolls of other brands. I usually buy it for about 50-60¢ per roll. Perhaps you can use some cloth napkins instead of paper napkins? Dedicate some washcloths. They don't have to be fancy. And don't make a special purchase, use what you have. Other things, the usual turn off lights/TV/radio/stove etc not in use, unplug "wall warts" when not in use, use CFLs for significant savings. When baking, you can turn off the oven ahead of time and use residual heat to finish up. These are all starting steps. "Baby steps" if you please. Keep calm by all means don't panic. Record your successes and pat yourself on the back for them. Pay attention to your money and compare your bills. Do you have some old receipts? Track them and see what you're paying for that can of beans, or tuna, or celery. Log prices of commonly purchased items and learn what really is a good price. If you buy something only once a year, it's not as important as something you buy weekly. Of course don't forget gasoline. If you don't have to make that trip this time, you'll save money just in gas. Check your insurance for better prices and to see if you're overinsured. Maybe you can share things and split costs. Do you have a neighbor that can use part of a bulk pack that saves you both money? Or can just one of you shop for both if you only need a few things? Or carpool to the store? Reduce, reuse, repair, recycle. Have a pantry and sometimes go without? Don't torture yourself but maybe instead of a special trip to get meat for dinner, you settle for omelets for supper, or canned soup and enjoy something different. Very important: Mindset. If you look at it as an adventure and new experience it'll go fine. If you look at it as depriving yourself, it won't. You're doing what you have to do. And be cautious of false pride. Make it known that you'd rather receive a ham or turkey as a gift instead of a souvenier plate from Disneyland. Are you in a situation where you can share a garden? Someone can come use your land for a garden, or hunting or something and you get part of the "take"? Again, think outside of the box. Trick yourself into saving money. For instance we often use too much shampoo for example. Take the bottle and dilute it 50/50 with water. It'll work as well and you'll cut your cost in half. A disabled husband can present unique challenges for you. Not knowing the nature you may not be able to turn down the heat too much and use sweaters, sweatshirts, etc. But you could close off rooms that aren't in use and turn off the heat registers in there too. There's a lot of good info in the forum. And a lot of good, caring people. It's helpful to kick ideas around, success stories, failures, suggestions and the like. I know you have ideas to contribute too. Don't be bashful! Keep on posting! Let us know how it's going!