According to all the historical sources they are different. I would read the Apples of New York descriptions and see which kind you have two of :-) They do sound pretty similar in the descriptions. I have only White Winter Pearmain so cannot give a first-hand comparison. In reading the descriptions I would say the uniformity of shape is a good marker -- WWP is quite uniform on my tree and Winter Banana sounds much more variable. Scott PS here they are. WINTER BANANA. Fruit large, clear pale yellow with beautiful contrasting pinkish-red blush, attractive in appearance, characteristically aromatic, of good dessert quality, but too mild in flavor to excel for culinary uses. The tree is a pretty good grower, comes into bearing young, is almost an annual bearer and yields moderate to rather heavy crops. In ordinary storage the fruit is in season from mid-November to the first of April, but its safe commercial limit in this climate probably would not extend much beyond December. In cold storage it ranks as a keeper about with Rhode Island Greening, but is not equal to Baldwin. It could perhaps be used to advantage commercially to follow the Maiden Blush and extend the season for fruit having the general appearance of that variety. As compared with Maiden Blush this is larger, neither as uniform nor as symmetrical, better for dessert use but less desirable for culinary purposes. Its color is such that it shows bruises more readily than do red apples like Baldwin or Tompkins King. It is sufficiently promising to be worthy of further testing where an apple of this color is desired. Another variety which has been disseminated under the name Banana is a sweet apple. It is described on page 60 under the name Banana Sweet. Historical. Winter Banana originated on the farm of David Flory near Adamsboro, Cass county, Ind., about 1876. It was introduced by Greening Brothers, Monroe, Michigan, in 1890 (4, 5). It has as yet been but little planted irv this state. TREE. Tree medium in size, vigorous. Form rather flat, spreading and somewhat inclined to droop, open. Twigs long, curved or nearly straight, moderately stout; internodes long. Bark reddish-brown mingled with olive-green, lightly and irregularly coated with scarf-skin, pubescent. Lenticels conspicuous, numerous, medium to large, round or slightly elongated, raised. Buds sunk in the bark, medium or above, plump, acute to obtuse, free, slightly pubescent. FRUIT. Fruit nearly large to very large, not very uniform in size or shape. Form roundish conic to oblong conic, or sometimes oblate and noticeably flat at the base, often irregularly elliptical and somewhat ribbed; axis sometimes oblique; sides often unequal. Stem short to moderately long, medium in thickness to rather slender. Cavity usually rather large, acute to acuminate, moderately shallow to deep, broad, gently furrowed, sometimes lipped, smooth or sometimes partly russeted. Calyx small to medium, partly open or sometimes closed; lobes convergent or connivent, short to medium length, obtuse to acute. Basin small to medium, often decidedly oblique, rather shallow to moderately deep, usually rather narrow but sometimes moderately wide, obtuse to rather abrupt, furrowed and wrinkled. Skin smooth, moderately thick, tough, waxy, bright pale yellow, often with a blush which in well-colored specimens deepens to dark pinkish-red. Often a suture line extends from the basin nearly or quite to the cavity. Dots numerous, whitish and submerged or with fine russet point. Prevailing effect yellow with a pretty contrasting blush. Caly.v tube wide above, rather short, cone-shape or funnel-form. Stamens median to marginal. Core rather small to above medium, abaxile; cells not uniformly developed, usually symmetrical and open, sometimes closed; core lines somewhat clasping. Carpels elongated ovate, narrow, emarginate, tufted. Seeds often abortive; the plump ones vary from small to rather large and are more or less irregular, usually obtuse to acute, dull dark brown, sometimes tufted. Flesh whitish tinged with pale yellow, moderately firm, a little coarse, somewhat crisp, tender, juicy, mild subacid, distinctly aromatic, good to very good. WHITE PEARMAIN. This is an old favorite dessert apple in portions of the Middle West from Ohio to Kansas. It appears to succeed better in those regions than it does in New York. It is not recommended for planting in this state. Historical. Warder says " This favorite fruit was brought to Indiana by some of the early pomologists, in the days of saddle-bag transportation. In a lot of grafts, two varieties, having lost their labels, were propagated and fruited without name. Being considered Pearmain-shaped, they were called respectively Red and White Winter Pearmains. The former proved to he the Esopus Spitzenberg; the latter has never yet been identified, though believed to be an old eastern variety." For a time it was confused with an old New Jersey apple by the name of Michael Henry Pippin, and Elliott fell into the error of publishing White Pearmain and White Winter Pearmain as synonyms of Michael Henry Pippin* but it was finally conceded that White Pearmain and Michael Henry Pippin are distinct varieties (4, 7), In 1858 it was catalogued by the American Pomological Society as White Winter Pearmain (5). Since 1897 (13) it has been listed as White Pearmain but it is very doubtful whether this change will be generally accepted by fruit growers and fruit dealers. This variety has been little grown in New York and is now seldom or never planted here. TREE. Tree vigorous. Form spreading. Twigs short, stout, blunt at tips, generally straight; internodes vary from short to long. Bark reddish-brown overlaid with heavy scarf-skin, quite pubescent Lcnticels conspicuous, numerous, above medium, elongated, raised. Buds large, projecting, acute, quite pubescent, free. FRUIT. Fruit below medium to nearly large, uniform in size and shape. Form roundish ovate or roundish approaching oblong conic, varying to roundish conic, somewhat ribbed, pretty symmetrical. Stem medium to long. Cavity rather small to above medium, acute, deep, moderately narrow to broad, somewhat furrowed, sometimes russeted. Calyx medium to large, usually closed; lobes long, acute. Basin small to medium, oblique, shallow and obtuse to medium in depth and rather abrupt, medium in width, often distinctly furrowed, wrinkled, pubescent. Skin tough, smooth, slightly waxen, pale yello\v, or at first greenish, writh a shade of brownish-red. Dots numerous, pale or russet, often submerged, usually larger and much elongated about the cavity. Calyx tube long, conical. Core medium to rather large; cells closed or partly open; core lines somewhat clasping. Carpels rather flat, broad or roundish-cordate, emarginate, mucronate, tufted. Seeds light brown, medium to large, rather wide, plump, obtuse to acute, tufted. Flesh slightly tinged with yellow, firm, fine-grained, crisp, tender, juicy, mild subacid, sprightly, very pleasantly aromatic, very good to best. Season December to March.

So much bad weather everywhere. Suzy, I think Italy has been getting the tail end of your dreadful wet: our weather is like yours, but not as severe. Still it has been a VERY rainy winter (and fall before that). Our farmer neighbors had a huge slide in the field below a part of our garden, overflowing into the road below. The badly cash-strapped township has been sending out an earth-mover every day or two to clear the road. They didn't need the extra expense. I'm sorry for all this nasty weather all over. Ours was tiresome, very tiresome, and so much darkness put me in a painful mood for quite a while around the holidays. But, while it's a month and a half early (not good), spring has sprung and I must say it's beautiful. I certainly am not used to seeing roses setting buds and the Salvia guaranitica flowering this time of year. In a normal year it goes from killed to the ground to having eight foot stems, and it's quite interesting to think about what it may turn into this year when it hasn't had any dieback. Monsters aren't in it. You'll survive this year too, somehow, Suzy, and everybody else who's had a really hard winter. Good luck to you all! I hope spring, and the weather you long for, comes soon! Melissa

Dooley, Your method of only pollinating with one pollen parent is pretty reliable however if you were short of mother plants and wanted to try a few differant pollen crosses - you could use a tag system. There have been a number of ideas put up here including straws, fishing line with knots/colour or my favourite plastic tags with a number or the pollen parent written on it. Some failures that can occur, the tag can fall out or the writing can fade or wear off. Rick Here is a link that might be useful: Japies Tags

CLin, I suspect the seeds are mostly still good if you haven't let them get wet or stored in a hot place. I've had mine in the laundry room, which isn't ideal but they're still good. I wouldn't start them indoors, too many issues to deal with for me. I'd start these right now using the Winter Sowing Method. Brandywine Tomatos Lettuce OG 2009 Radish crop 2009 Dill for pickles Black Russian crop (is this a tomato?) Onions (green) crop 2009 OG Apple custured tree big seed (brown seeds) These I'd direct sow right now: Sugar snap pea 2009 These I'd start winter sowing as soon as you get the above ones done: Thai basil crop 2009 Banana peppers crop 2009 OG Sugarbaby Watermelon Cucumber pickling 2009 Red, Orange sweet bell peppers This I do not have a clue when to start. concord grape OG If you want to check viability I've read that some people take one or 2 seeds and put them on a damp paper towel. fold the towel in half and slip into a zip lock bag. Be sure to label it. Then tape it in a warm place, or to a window. If the seeds sprout you can be pretty certain the rest of that same package will. (which is why you label them so you'll know which seed is which) I don't bother testing viability. A lot of the seeds I'm sowing now are about 10 years old. I sowed 2 milk jugs of swiss chard seed on January 11. I've already divided one of the jugs and got 28 little plants. Much more than I need for myself. I sowed tomatoes on 1/29 and almost all of them sprouted last week. I have lots of other sprouts of other plants doing just fine in their little mini green houses. Check out the Winter Sowing links from the beginning of this thread and feel free to ask questions here or over in the winter sowing forum.