Cath, I grow clovers as a permanent mulch - I have to resow odd patches which get walked on a lot but in general, it stays in place around the fruit bushes. Other green manures (we also call them cover crops) I use are much shorter lived - tares and grazing rye are sown quite late in September and dug in the ground in early spring. Mustard is a really quick cover crop and I turn it in after 6 weeks. The main reason for using these cover crops is the silty sandy soil I garden on tends to leach out nutrients and also, as I grow many vegetables, the soil needs more frequent replenishment than when growing perennials or shrubs. For years, I relied on a good autumn topping of horse but the amylopyrolid/chlopyralid used in many broad leaved herbicides, persists, even after passing through the animal's digestive system. Horses which eat hay from fields where these herbicides are used have been unable to break down the hormones in these herbicides (unlike the old 2,4D for broad leaf weed killing). Consequently, crops sown in soil which has traces of chlopyralid grow with massive distortions, rendering them unusable. The effects persist over several years - only curcubits are relatively unaffected. Until recently, these herbicides were not available for the home gardening market but last year, they started creeping into domestic use - Verdone, for examnple, is now using chlopyralid as the active ingredient. What this means for us gardeners is that not only is horse manure compromised because of the hay they have been fed, the municipal green waste which many of us used as a soil conditioner, is also useless. Knowing the provenance of manure is essential (and unreliable since farmers are not always totally honest). I cannot make enough good compost to replenish the humus and keep the soil structure open and friable so using green manures, as well as leaving annual weeds either on top of the soil or turned under, is my main source of soil amendements (and also leaf mould but that takes ages). Is this an issue in the US? Are broad leaved herbicides using amylopyralid or chlopyralid or are they still based on hormones such as 2,4D - which basically makes plants such as dock, plantain, daisies and other lawn weeds, grow themselves to death.

One of my best companion plants is pelargoniums (which many people mistakenly call geraniums). I have them in white and different shades of pink and lavender. I like the double ones best and here they bloom almost the whole year, get no disease and are very floriferous. Another good one for me is sea lavender (limonium perezii) which makes babies so I have quite a few now. The bluish-purple color is a great foil for the roses. The snails like them and sometimes they just die off or begin to look bad, but before you know it another one has popped up somewhere. Reblooming irises are great with roses and in a warm climate they can rebloom even in the winter. Marjoram is another great favorite, silvery in color with small white flowers the bees love. It gets quite large but can be contained with pruning. It also has made a few new plants. Day lilies of course, although when they get too large they steal water from the roses. Penstemon in pink and lavender is also nice. I've tried many things over the years but only a handful have made it over a period of time. I have rosemary in the really tough spots but I don't grow them with the roses because they get very large and have different water requirements. Ingrid

Just wanted to post an update. I got Penelope from Palatine. Only time will say, if this experiment would work, i.e. growing shade tolerant roses in shade. I honestly can't say how much sunlight it receives, but I can affirm that it is less than "part shade", more or less dappled shade. The shade is due to a sprawling Manitoba Maple and a dense cherry tree, which I hope some day to have pruned. However by September, Penelope should be receiving much more sunlight... The plant for the time being is around 3 feet tall with 3 main branches. We had a lot of rain in June (every 2nd day) and rather cool temperatures. To my surprise, several weeks ago, I saw flower buds on all branches. And she flowered on July 1st. This is one of the most beautiful roses, I've ever seen. So many variations going from the most delicate pink to pure white. For the time being there is a very light fragrance. If I recall well, my Felicia didn't have much scent the first year. Thanks again all.... Penelope's maiden bloom.....

Thanks, all. EvS and Otto Linne both remind me of what little I've seen of my new Pomponella. It's early for me to have an opinion about Pomponella though. Looking at pics on hmf of Pax and Prosperity it does look to me like Prosperity may have more petals and sometimes has a blush of pink in the centers. But most often it is pure white, and most often the form is semi -double. It's a vigorous shrub. I'm curious about whether Clytemnestra and Nymphenburg are similar to Felicia. I have a trade in the works for a Walferdange plant this spring. Have wanted that one awhile. A lot of the hybrid musks are vigorous and take up a lot of room. My Lavender Lassie in the tree seems to have overextended itself. It has had major die back for some reason....maybe voles. Most of what was in the tree is gone but there is a good bit left of the plant. Mine can defoliate in mid to late summer too. One thing great about this site and hmf is the variety of pics, the good , bad, and ugly. The less wonderful shots help quite a bit too. Prosperity looking more typical, less glam: