Hi Leyland.

I live just up north, in Bassendean. We both share the same "problem" and I can tell you my experiences.

Yellowing is normal -- old leaves turn yellow and will fall off. If new shots are yellow, then it can be a disease (BS) or nutrition problems. But there's more.

Yellowing leaves is "normal" for most HTs and Floribundas in my garden. But that's fixable -- yellowing is common in most of the new plants, but older plants appear to be "immune" to that. It seems that roses have to accustom themselves to the harsh, sandy soil of WA and it takes some time.
That's why is so important that you buy roses grafted on Fortuniana. Nothing else will work here. Thus, be careful when you're lowering the pH of your soil -- you can't apply all the rules about pH written in American and English books, because they use completely different rootstocks. If you do it, do it slowly.
Good fertilising is absolutely necessary, and watering too. It will partially fix the problem. I prepare my own mixes of manure and slow release fertilisers, mixing them together with trace elements, dynamic lifters and epsom salt. Since I've been examining how roses behave in my garden (and in pots), I can say that treatment works well -- they're now much happier, greener, grow like crazy.

Already yellow leaves won't turn green again. It's best if you just cut them off. Sometimes, you need to do drastic treatments but roses will respond very positively.

For example, I've cut all the leaves (except for few new shots) on my Ena Harkness, Fragrant Plum and Perfume Delight, feed them well with those mixtures of mine (I make different mixtures for different roses) and after few weeks they're growing all new, beautiful leaves through abundance of new shoots.

HTs and Floribundas are generally weaker species to grow in WA. And among them, there are healthier and weaker varieties too. For example, Mr Lincoln is much healthier and twice as vigorous as Papa Meilland. And some average David Austin's here is better than Mr Lincoln. Ena Harkness is beautiful, but it is a weak plant by her genetics. You can't have it all. So when you're planing your rose bed, see what's best to grow in WA. I strongly suggest you to go for David Austin's roses and old garden roses.

My new David Austins and rugosas, and old climbing varieties are much healthier and more vigorous and almost perfectly green, all the time. I'm very proud of them and they've encouraged me to invest more into them.

So, there's no easy answer. Take care about how you feed your roses, note how often you treat them with epsom salt, dynamic lifters, what's the NPK value of your slow release fertiliser, how pH changes through the months and so on.

One more thing: I personally don't believe in those theories about feeding roses twice a year, or something similar. I think that's rubbish -- it's just a flattering to our fast paced urban lives. Au contraire, I like to feed them more often, but...

I'll just add someting more to my last thoughts -- I know it will sound crazy, but I've noticed one "strange" thing. Unlike many other plants which grow towards the sun, roses in my grden turned their all new stems in different direction -- the same direction I'm entering the garden and starrt watering and feeding them. The sun is constantly on the left, but the garden entrance is on the right ... and their all new stems grow to the right. Crazy! :-)
- Tom

They love you Tom, and are awaiting your entry with a bucket of goodies.

It sounds like my chickens waiting for me to feed them in the morning Tom.
We use the same philosophy on our garden roses too Tom.Smaller rations of fertiliser more often ie just prior to rain or irrigation.This is more akin to the practice of hydroponics where appropriate concentrations of fertiliser are fed to roses in irrigation water anything up to twelve times a day.The conventional approach to fertilising garden roses is probably one of pure convenience ie twice a year.This method however would leave us with a predicament where for a short period twice a year, our plants have a higher than necessary concentration of available nutrients around their root system, while at other times it is always too low.The vigor of hydroponic roses is far greater than that of garden roses,in a large part due to the precise management of irrigation/fertilisation.
Leyland if you are trying to lower soil ph you would be best to use elemental sulfur for a slow response or aluminium sulphate for a rapid response.Ammonium sulphate is one product you best not use at all.If your soil is limey (calcium carbonate) it may strongly resist any attempts you make at acidification anyhow.Farmers with soils such as this generally use higher fertiliser rates and maximum addition of organic matter to manage the problem.The yellowing in your leaves can be temporarily overcome with foliar application of iron chelates(see box for rates).This practice will never amount to a permanent solution however it's a good way to green up your roses before you show them off to visitors.
Thrip

Thanks guys, your input is most valuable. I have printed it off and will use it to try and make my roses look a little better. It is strange but the rose bushes in my front garden dont suffer the yellowing leaves like the ones out the back, I will use your input and try to figure it out.
One more thing, how do I upload pictures into the messages on this forum.
Thanks again guys.

This is the rose that has 2 different coloured leaves on it.
Yes! with advice from the guys on this forum I've managed to get my pictures up. Watch out guys, here comes all my pictures.
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It's normal for deficiency symtoms to be unevenly distributed across the plant canopy.Iron and manganese in particular, quickly become unavailable as soils become alkaline.Depending on the severity new growth will likely green up as it hardens and the plant continues to transport what iron and manganese it can absorb into the top growth.Otherwise you can reduce the symptoms with foliar spraying.If you go down this track, you should probably just try iron chelate (foliar)first before bothering to evaluate the effect of manganese sulphate(foliar).It may be worth applying these to the soil (as a trial) particularly if you have sandy soil(?).It's best to evaluate only one nutrient at a time.Both these fertilisers are available in small boxes for home garden use.Happy tinkering Leyland.
Thrip

Thanks Thrip,
Yes I do have sandy soil, in fact its all sand no soil. I have tried iron sulphate but this doesn't seem to be doing much. I will try the small pack of iron chelate and the manganese chelate directly onto the soil and see what happens. I have one rose bed in particular about 6Mtrs x 6Mtrs containing 29 bushes (where the chicken run used to be)where all the bushes are turning yellow (pic below). Is it possible that I have to many bushes in this area for the weak soil to support them. Would you suggest thinning them out.
Leyland
P.S. this picture was taken in the evening and the bushes look greener than they are.
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Hi Leyland,
what did you to before planting your roses?
Before planting, I was examining how good or bad the soil was, and then I've removed lots of sand and poor soil and replaced them with heaps of manure, soil improvers, compost, trace elements, pH neutralisers etc. I've mixed all that and was digging vigourously. Then for few weeks I was watering the whole spot (for water to soak in deep in the ground before roses come -- that's important for young plants) and was adding liquid dynamic lifter once a week.
And then I've decided to plant varieties I liked ...
It looks to me you need to fertilise your roses well. Put in lots of manure and few drops of slow release fertiliser. Also, areate the soil a little (dig gently around the bushes.) Hope it will help.
-Tom

What type of fertiliser and amounts of it do you use Leyland?
Thrip

leyland, forget all the rubbish....sheep poo...plenty of it will sort your ph out.....npk blue every 4-6 weeks..all other ferts are just marketing.......water....they aint getting much.....assuming the photo's are at this time of year..your probs water and food..thats all....forget varieties and root stock bla bla bla......stick to the basics

OK guys, I'll do my best to answer all questions. Tom, I put these bushes in, in this area about three years ago. The area was used as a dumping ground for tree prunings and other garden foliage for a couple of years previously. The ground was cleared of all large branches etc and dug over with a rotary hoe. I then dug a deepish hole for each bush and put a pile of compost/mulch in each one. the holes were then back filled a bit and the bushes put in, then the holes completely filled. Last year and the previous year I did not do much in the way of mulching but did feed with NPK blue about every six weeks and overhead watering (bore water) every morning for three quarters of an hour throughout the growing season. Last year I noticed that the bushes were starting to turn a bit yellowish so I bought 10 ltrs of seasol which was used every two weeks.
Because I have a quarter acre block and many many rose bushes my electricity bill was getting rather large so this winter I spent a lot of time and effort spreading horse and sheep poo on the beds, covered it all with about three inches of compost (with lots of worms) and then covered all that with another three inches of wood chip over half the beds and free tip mulch over the other half of the beds so that this year I only have to water every three days for half an hour. So far this year every time I dig down through the mulch the ground beneath is nice and damp. I did wonder if last year I watered too much and leached all the nutrients out of the soil. You mentioned that it would be a good idea to aerate the soil but I read somewhere that the fortuniana root stock has very shallow roots and one should be very careful when digging near the roses. Last year a friend was helping me with weeding and was using a six inch bladed kitchen knife to "Get all the weeds roots out" this has not been done this season as the mulch keeps most of them down and those that do pop up are easily pulled.
The winter seems to have draged on a bit this year and the poor roses have been dragging their feet a bit, yesterday was the first really hot day weve had this year. So far this year I have fed the roses twice. The first time was with a mixture of a complete rose food mixed with some slow release food, then three weeks later (weekend before last) I fed them with a mix of Dynamic Lifter 45%, NPK 45%, Epsom salts 3%, slow release pellets 3% and wetter soil pellets 3% and spread the mix about 200 grms per sq mtr, watered in well. I have also spread iron sulphate and sulphate of ammonia at about 50 grms per sq mtr twice this season. I reckon I must be over feeding them!! perhaps I should give the stuff a bit more time to work.
The photos were taken the evening before last.
There, Ive just about answered all the questions from Thrip and Brenton as well. Thanks guys.
Brenton how much sheep poo do think should be applied? two inches thick? four inches thick? or six inches thick. I buy the stuff ten sacks at a time, I'm...

Also try buying some patience! Rome wasn't built in a day. You've got shi((y ground, get that fixed with lots of humus. I'm with Brenton, basics.

I have tried to get NPK Blue over here in the eastern states. A google search turned up mostly WA references for it. Hubby wonders if it has been specifically formulated for WA soils. Any info would be appreciated. Ann

I wondered when you'd pop up Brenton.I was starting to think you had given up on the forum because of it's slowness.
Crikey Leyland, I didn't realise you were tinkering with your fertilisers that much.Heres my advice
Rather than complex mixes of ferts just use a complete fertiliser like what Brenton said.We use Nitrophoska Blue over here in the East which is roughly the equivalent of NPK Blue.There is definatly no advantage in using slow release ferts inground (esp. on sand) and they're relatively expensive.I don't recommend chicken poo ferts as they are always deficient in potassium.NPK Blue etc contain around three to four times the relative amount of potassium.If your dead set keen on chook poo however, then be a Peter Cundall man and make up for the shortfall with potassium sulphate(sulphate of potash).
Add organic matter as much as you can to help acidify soil, to prevent nutrients leaching away quickly and very importantly to keep your microbes happy. Much of the fertiliser we put on is intercepted, used by and changed into different forms by microbes.This in effect is converting a quick release fert like NPK Blue into a slower release fert.Of course if your soil is dead (no microbes) fertilisers leach away quickly and can burn plants on the way through.
Your soil has a high ph and is almost all sand.The chicken run and fowl manure ferts can contribute to raising ph levels (temporarily)depending on quantities used etc.
Having said all this I can see from your last photo that the fertilisers you have put on are definately doing something for your roses but they are just thoroughly deficient in iron. Rectifying this single element deficiency would make a large difference to your roses.
Oh crickey mate I just reread you last bit and realised you have healthy roses out the front. Your problem may not be so bad afterall.Maybe you should just blame the alkaline chook poo for now, keep adding organic matter and NPK blue/nitrophoska blue and give it a few experiments with the chelated iron.It will definately help but note two things.(1)If your soil is naturally limey anyway (which I strongly susupect) then you will just have to keep re-applying iron chelates as no matter how much sulphur etc you apply it will never reduce your soil ph enough to allow adequate uptake by roses (unlike some other plants)(2)If the iron chelates are not causing a significant improvement within a week then double the dose.

g'day thrip....yup...stiull to slow for me..that and buding is on at present and there doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day!..hope your spring went well..leyland if you can buy old manure with no heat or smell left in it...then knock yourself out....i wonder if you might be doing a bit too much?...whats different about the bushes at the back vs the ones at the front??....fresh wood chips will suck the food your putting into the bed (nitrogen drawdown) were they fresh???...still stick to the basics...after a normal watering..grab the shovel...dig down a foot or so about a foot or more away from the base and see how deep the water is penetrating.....the marketing is fortuniana is "drought tolerant"...in a word..rubbish...it needs water just like all the rest....with roses it's not about volume it's about delivery...make sure the h2o is getting to where it's needed...also interested about wood chips

For now Leyland, you may seriously consider getting them in large pots. Outside of that - you can send me a soil sample if you like. Thats the only real way to see whats going on without all the trial and error.
Pete

Hi brenton, Just applied iron chelate to one of the beds and sheep poo to another. Now watering in for half an hour and will go back and check water penetration depth. The sheep poo I get comes in sacks and is easy to handle it only pongs on a hot day so not too bad. The wood chip was about 2 months old when applied and the beds with it on dont seem any different from other beds, the chip has been down for about 3months and seems to be good at keeping the soil damp beneath it. Not all my bushes are fortuniana some are unknown stock (supermarkets) and some are cuttings I've taken which are not on stock. I've just dug down a couple of feet away from a bush to check for water penetration and although the ground is not soaking wet its not dry either just sort of damp, maybe not quite as damp as I would have expected so I will have to water for a bit longer next time. After doing all that I've made myself a bit late for work, gotta go. Thanks guys
Leyland

Gidday from the East again Leyland
It would seem that after reading your last post again that you've been heading down the right track with your backyard garden for the best part and it's just a case of a good gardener having a run in with some really tough soil or should I say sand and limestone?
We really need to find out whether you have limestone present.Your iron chlorosis,your ph and your location are all pointing to it. In hindsight it is very possible that
that your rotary hoe may have brought a higher concentration of lime into the very top layer of soil and made matters worse.You can test for lime by adding hydrochloric acid to a small sample of your moistened sand and wait to observe fizzing.I add nitric acid/phosphoric acid to my nursery water every day to neutralise the alkaline components that it contains.If I don't do this my seedlings (in tiny cell trays) will show iron chlorosis within a fortnight.The larger pot plants are later, also affected as they slowly develop alkaline conditions within their relatively larger volumes of potting mix (only necessary for potted crops). You are best to wear goggles when playing with the acid.
All of this is only necessary to save you time/money in the longer run.If you can't be bothered I'd understand that too. If so then the potting up and or soil replacement ideas would be sure options.If you wan't to go for pots don't bother unless you can afford sizeable pots and automatic irrigation would be my advice.Without it, the quality of your roses and the enjoyment you derive from them will be far lower.
Some answers to questions I missed.....(a) your roses are not overplanted and thinning them will make no difference...(b)iron chlorotic symptoms in young healthy leaves are reversible with treatment and your yellow leaves will green up again.
Some other factors regarding your current situation.......(a) When applying iron chelates make sure your using preferably acidic water or at least rainwater.Alkaline bore water can once again tie up your iron in unavailable form.
(b)Considering the severity of your problem apply iron both foliar (at recommended rates only) and to the soil at varying rates depending on resulting effect.
(c) The sheep poo or whatever organic material you use will hopefully re-establish a slightly less alkaline soil surface where your iron will be more stable in it's available form.The little feeder roots you observed will come up from deep down to take what they need from this layer and thats why it's very important to apply the best watering practice possible.Drying out will kill them and make the problem more severe again.
(d)Assuming presence of lime as your main problem then attempting to acidify soil will have very little if any benefit.Even if you dumped a semi load of nitric acid on your garden, after a few days when the fumes have cleared and you walk down into the resultant crater to take a soil ph test, it will still say about 8 due to the presence of...

Hi thrip,
I have printed off your last comments and will have a good read and a good think I will then post my decision on the forum. I will also test my bore water for limestone traces and see what that brings. I have removed the worst effected bush from the bed and replanted it in a pot with potting mix to see if it revives. Thanks thrip
Leyland

Hi again Leyland
Depending on the result of your lime test we may need to look for a better quality iron chelate.I'm assuming the garden shop has given you EDTA.We use EDTA or DPTA here but where lime is present, the EDDHA form would be far superior. I'm just not sure of cost.
The potting experiment is a great idea but make sure you use a slow release fertiliser that states at least, some, iron content.Considering you may be placing a large, already iron deficient plant into the pot, it would pay to add some additional iron chelate as the symptoms may otherwise be slow to reverse.A reasonable dilution rate for the Fe EDTA as pot.mix drench would be about 1 gram per 50 litres of water.You can just guess the rate if you have no scales.And thats the end of my morning tea.Catch ya later Leyland.
Thrip

Leyland

There is an excellent 'gardening' book called "Gardening Down Under " by Kevin Handreck
This is not your regular gardening book and covers many parts of your questions and woould certainly be worth buying

Check it out

He was for many years working as a CSIRO scientist and has also written a book called Plant Growing Media which is a more technical type book but also worth buying.

Good Luck and try growing Salvias

tobin1, interesting you should mention that book. I am currently reading it, recommended reading. If you are a beginner or even an experienced gardener, you can't beat adding a little extra knowledge of what happens in the soil. I've always been fascinated by soil and in the process of improving my horrible lifeless sand.

The information on Green manure crops threw me a bit...so am relearning along the way.

The comment above about the tilling your ground makes sense.

cheers
varmi