Poor Fran, mine are flowering still and am waiting to prune! my Jane is still going well too. Then I just about have all the Austens ho hum...
Lynne

So which are the two that would grow upside down?

I haven't had much luck with DAs either. I gave away Sharifa Asma for refusing to bloom after one measly 2-week flush in Spring and nothing else ever again. And I didn't like the smell of those flowers, either. I decided to try my luck with The Prince, and though it flowered more frequently and smelt better, the over-all flower count was unimpressive. I'm giving it one more chance but I'm already hardening my heart.

I first had DA roses growing in the vegetable garden in 1991. And they were stunning. I shifted them after 2 years as my husband wanted his vegy garden back for rotation etc.
Once out in the rose garden and the rest of the yard they were a disaster. Finally, I relocated them for the 3rd time to another area in the yard that got sun all day long, not just 6 hours as some recommend. Austins need more than that I have found. There are some real beauties in the DA range for both perfume and shape. The Dark Lady is a winner. Some have the most appauling smell. We have since moved to a smaller garden and I have had to be selective. The DA which I have here are beautiful and well perfumed. My passion is with the Old World roses. DA roses have the form right but not always the perfume. If you are looking for the style of the DA roses and a great perfume the french roses "Generosa" I find to be much superior to the DA roses here. Happy gardening.

Dare I say my DA Mary Rose only had about four blooms on it last Season getting sun all day
Last week I moved it to a bed where it should only get about six hours sun a day
And if it does not perform better this year it will get the shovel too...MM

The upside downers are Moonbeam, Abraham Darby - who give him credit would flower in the Sahara I think, and Graham Thomas..
All reasonably upright growers.. the rest? ppffffffft!
I am hardening my heart and sharpening the shovel..
I am sure a row of Parole would look much nicer :-)

Oh dear I have in the past month planted Jude the Obscure Sharifa Asma Charles Rennie Mackintosh Evelyn Brother Cadfael Sir Walter Raleigh and Heritage With Reine Victoria and Madame Pierre Oger (I am calling it my dignified rose bed) I will take the shovel out now and just SHOW it to them. Perhaps this will inspire them to live up to my expectations Pam

I have had Graham Thomas in the past it is a beauty, Heratige is very disapointing I am trying Comtes de Champagne & Charle's Austin now hopefully they will do well another I shovel pruned was Wenlock as it was too weak & the understock took over
Jan.

Have just bought four,Charles A,AbrahDerby,TeasGeorg,Falstarf,lady gave me some fertilizer ALROC,1heaped teaspoon ev three months,apparently they love it,The roses I got had large stems on them,very healthy,hope it can be of some help.greencroc.

I only have one DA here in south east Melbourne's Dandenongs - John Clare and it's been going great guns and it's only about 80cms away from a native shrub. I think it likes the shrub's protection from the hot afternoon sun - the shrub is a Virgilia which has ferny branches. But I have always had my doubts about English roses - after all, we have much harsher summers and so often the colours of the DA 's just bleach out or the blooms open out too quickly and blow away on days of hot northerlies. I won't be indulging in David Austins.

Janine, that what you tell is true for almost all roses here in Oz. Nothing lasts long in this hot sun and quite different rules are to be followed when planting roses. Here in WA, for example, more that 7 hours of direct, hot sun will destroy even blooming natives, what to speak about roses! If you want to give a good chance to your English roses, plant them in semishade, with maximum of 3-4 hours of direct, hot sun. I've found that's more that enough for them and they develop themselves into beautiful, outstanding roses, with no burnt foliage and pale blooms. For example, my Graham Thomas gets only 3-4 hrs of direct hot Perth's sun in the aftenoon (the rest of day it enjoys pleasant semishade) and it blooms and grows like crazy -- and those blooms last for 5 days on it, and they don't loose their colour or fragrance at all. Same is with Pegasus, Scepter'd Isle and others -- they're all in some sort of semishade all day or they get maybe 3-4 hours of full sun and they perform beautifully. I plant all roses with this in my mind and I never allow some rose to suffer more than 4 hours of direct, hot sun. Time between 9 am - 4 pm I consider to be extremely hot in Perth and I split that period in two -- half of my roses get 3 hrs of direct, hot sun in the morning (9am - noon), and half of them in the afternoon (1 pm - 4pm). Few hours before 9 am and after 4 pm, or semishade, add to the total of 5-6 hrs of sunlight required. Sun here and sun back there in UK is not the same. Don't forget intense atmospheric reflections as well (in a sunny day, you can't walk out here in Oz without glasses, but back there in Europe you can), humidity and everything else. Here you can grow English roses in semishade, under the tree or wherever other roses will just strive, and they'll perform even better. I've discovered that only spring flowering (old) roses can bear more than 5 hours of direct sun here. They don't suffer from burnt foliage or weak growth; they perform beautifully, they don't use so much water and their leaves is always outstanding. My Constance Spry grew more than 70 cm in height and width in just 6 weeks and all those new laves exposed to direct, hot sunlight (6+ hours a day) look as fresh as from the fridge :-) God bless spring flowering roses! - Tom

Yes Tom ,I find the sun here is very intense for all the roses....I have about 12 Austins and cant complain especially since DH came home from the farm with a bag of real manure...its as though they have been on steroids....but I am finding the leaves are looking and feeling very dry and brittle...but the blooms are wonderful both in number and size.....I think they need less than a full day of direct sun and more in dappled light...mine have this setup and are doing fine...Most of my DAs have half a day of full sun and say half a day in dappled sun.>>Hope this helps...cheers...Michelle

Tom, Though the Austins or their marketing machine so clearly likes the term "English Roses", it is not accepted by the rose fraternity. Others may well see this adoption as presumtuous and arrogant, for it ignores the efforts of other UK breeders who also it might be said, are raising English roses, since that is where they live. I see in his books, Austin flaunts the term "English Roses" right left and centre, no doubt hoping it will stick. Your continued use of the term aids this process. Kordes do not claim to produce "German" roses, nor Meilland, "French" roses, they are the Gallicas. Jackson and Perkins, and Weeks do not claim to breed "American" roses, and Alister Clark, perhaps with more justification, didn't claim to raise "Australian" roses. Albas, the roses of Albon as the Romans called them, can rightly claim to be "English" roses. Nobody doubts that David Austin has made a wonderful contribution to the development of the rose, but it does not sit well with rosarians that he gratuitously and exclusively applies a national tag to his products. There is another strange twist to the Austin phenomenon. Presumably with hindsight, he for whatever reason, is excluding some of his earlier creations from his latest books, and I refer to 'Glastonbury', 'The Knight', and 'Chaucer' for example, though their names can still be found in the pedigrees of 'Prospero' 'Wenlock', and 'The Squire'. Furthermore, though bred in Germany, and introduced in 1909, 'Gruss an Aachen' is lately included in his books because, if my memory does not fail me, it so resembles in the flower, his roses. I think he would also much prefer its habit of growth, in this country at least. Many readers might think, what's in a name. I agree, but the privelige of giving Nature a helping hand in the creation of roses for the world to enjoy, might be considered sufficient reward for a breeder.

Fran DAs certainly get a mixed press on this forum. If you're anywhere near Mornington Peninsula try a walk through the Roserie de la Haie (?) at the Briars at Mt Martha. The DAs are gobsmackingly beautiful and you can see which of them grow into lovely bushes as opposed to great flowers on sticks. I was there yesterday and came away with Sir Walter, but I need to find a spot for Blossomtime and Yellow Button. I don't think they get pampered, the garden is too large for that. About a month ago I bought JtO there and Lilian Austin. Both are growing and flowering really well in big pots on the deck. Full sun all day doesn't seem to bother them, although today will be the big test, 37 degrees.

Lozza, I just follow David Austin's wish, because he introduced that term and he is the creator of English roses. On his labels, it's written 'English roses bred by David Austin'. So, why make a fuss out of it? He wanted to make a completely new category of roses, similar to Floibunda or HT, or Portland or Bourbons, or Gallicas and Albas .. and he wanted them to be called English roses. We're talking about some distinctive, completely new category of roses. In his new book he states: "In some countries some people call our roses David Austin Roses. We prefer to call them English roses instead". I also wouldn't mind if Kordes introduced some new category called German roses, or Meilland introduced some French roses. But Meilland introduced Romantica family. I may also introduce Mediterranean roses in few years from now, for example. But I may also introduce some English roses of my own, and call them English roses bred by Tom Pariz and I can market them as English roses too. And that's in fact what some breeders do today. Anyone can do that and that's what David Austin wanted at first place: anyone can contribute. For example, Paul Barden introduced 'Joyce Barden', a beautiful rose he made by breeding Sweet Juliet and Souvenir de la Malmaison. In its form and qualities it is an outstanding English rose, but Paul will decide how to categorise his rose. On his website he put his Joyce Barden into Modern Shrub category. Modern Shrub? That vague term describes nothing of the qualities his rose has, but only that it is .. a modern rose that is actually a shrub too :-) Sorry Paul, but you could've done it better :-) - Tom

I would also like to add that I have found that the DAs that are really blooming are the more established ones...I also noticed that the colours are richer after a few years, say 3-4 years of growth. ...I started with a lot of DAs as bare roots and find now, a few years later ,that they are really stronger and the colours richer....but given a hot north wind day they struggle a bit (like all the other plants!!)...my 2cents worth ...I am not a total fan of the so called English roses,I have lots of Delbards,Meilland and Kordes ,all of which ,...may I add, are easier to manage with fungal problems...I find the Delbards to be fantastic with disease resistance....cheers...Michelle

Ok, now one silly question -- why this bl00dy forum puts all text from our postings in just one paragraph, line after line, word after word, with no concerns about line breaks? I use line breaks, starting new paragraphs, but forum takes no care about it. - Tom

Thats right Tom..Its driving everyone crazy....Thats why I am using dots to seperate the text and make the post legible....There are a few threads on at the moment about this difficulty....on this forum and on Rose Gallery....cheers...Michelle

Hi from a beginner here - but I have a lot of DA's planted - some from friends - thanks Meryl and Sandie - and they are all going like troopers. Benjamin Britten - 2 of them - were moved to a new bed and cut right down to the ground and both are now well over my head - so close to 6 feet tall - and both with masses of blooms. All the other roses are also blooming their heads off and putting out basals and .. no disease except a few spots on a few leaves but who cares? One thing that they do get here is lots and lots of H20 - as it is a place where we get a lot of rain and I have got all the water and sewer output of the house and the business now being processed and going onto the rose beds - so wet mulchy soil most of the time. Fran - I wonder if the amount of water is one factor for some flowering and some not? Mine have only ever had pony and cow poo and lucerne mulch as I can afford it (as these beds are large - but bought a bale the other day that was 8 feet x 3 feet x 2 feet for $140 - but with lots of water, the blooming is prolific. I will take some photos and post via a web link. I also weakly bought some Sudden Impact for Roses in a large tub - seemed cheap enough at $35 - so might throw some of that around. Meryl, I planted your little New Dawn the other day in 40 deg heat along with MMe Alfred C., Sombreuil and M. Harrop on the wire of my new enclosed veggie garden - all are fine and New dawn is putting out lots of new growth already. M Harrop looked a bit sad with a few yellow leaves and then this morning I discovered I had left the hose on ALL NIGHT onto the mulch around her and apart from being very cross with myself, I must say M. is looking pretty perky today. I am about to plant Rambling rector and Gigantea on this wire also tomorrow - do love the idea of picking veggies in a rose covered arbour with 6 ducks who live in there (hence the wire enclosure) making sure there are no snails etc and fertilizing it all (New dawn is next to the ducks' sunken old bath and it gets flooded all day long but it drains away very well).

Kevarose...I also give them lots of water..a full drink once a week and a top up in between...and a bit more if it has been very hot...in Melbourne tomorrow its going to 42 degrees!!!!!I have posted a link to a pic of the DAs I have that are going like gangbusters...cheers..Michelle

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:2113800}}

Here is a direct link to my photobucket album....It will show you more photos ...its hard to post more than 1 at a time...very frustating...Michelle

Here is a link that might be useful: rosesforme photobucket album

Try and remember one thing Tom, your god was the creator of English Roses, a very long time ago. How would you have classified 'Joyce Barden'?

Thanks Loza, and that's why I appreciate old roses more and more. Re. Joyce Barden, if I was a breeder, I would consider: ... - which certain qualities rose has predominantly .... - parentage too .... By parentage it is an English rose + Bourbon, with more characteristics of its mother, Sweet Juliet. So I'd classify it as an English Rose bred by Paul Barden. Modern Shrub is just too vague and too obscure term that means absolutely nothing. In fact, I think it's ridiculous and that all new classifications should be introduced. ...... I know people today are phobic of so many things, and DA's wish to use English rose term stirs some emotions and mixed reactions. But I also believe that we should give a man his credit because he started and then brought something completely new in our gardens. Soon he won't be among us anymore and all the contributions he made will stay engraved in history and in gardens of generations to come. ........ - Tom

Not entering into the naming argument however I have found David Austins to be reasonably hardy but as someone stated our sun can be way 'too' hot for anything. Even noticed some succulents burnt the other crispy day.. Anyway Abraham Darby, The Dark Lady, Pegasus, Graham Thomas, Heritage, Jude the Ob, Comtes de Champagne have all gone terrific for me in the past years and I'll stick with them although there is something wonderful (historic?) about OGR's that keeps me planting more of them..

Garry

I will always refer to David Austin roses as David Austin roses. Too many plants are called "English" simply because they grow or have been bred there.
Some time ago a lady said my garden was full of English plants. When I asked her to point these out, I found myself saying, "no, that's from Africa and that's from China, and that paper daisy is an Australian Native".

Wattleblossom, you're right.
Even if we go after the land/place of origin, and where they were first bred, grown and introduced, those roses of David Austin are roses from Shropshire, England. Even geographically their name fits perfectly.
Now, lets see what history says: Bourbon roses, for example, were named after a place where they've been first introduced and bred. Same goes for Portland roses too. And Gallica roses ... let me see ... oh, all the same too! Damask roses ... hmmm ... same as well!
Then .. why so much fuss about English roses name? It seems to me poeple before were much more tolerant than today. Anyway, these are just my 2 cents.
- Tom

Your last para. Tom. The fuss is because there are people like Len Scrivens, Chris Warner, Robert and Philip Harkness, Cants of Colchester, Fryers, Amanda and Peter Beales, with apologies to the others, who are all breeders of roses in England, and their roses should rightly (by your logic) be termed 'English Roses'. But Uncle Dave has gratuitously bestowed that dubious honour upon himself. Just a little self-ingratiating don't you think? Or an ingenious catch-phrase? English rose breeders are rightly in my opinion, disdainful of the term.

As to the places of origin of roses, is that Portland, Oregon, or Portland, Victoria? Named after the then Duchess of Portland I believe. And when were Bourbons "first introduced and bred" on the Ile de Bourbon?. On the other hand, given all this happened nearly 200 years ago, you may just be historically correct.

***
and their roses should rightly (by your logic) be termed 'English Roses'.
***
Not mine, Lozza. I've just said, even if we go after that logic (the place of origin), it woudn't be incorrect to conclude why David Austin calls his roses English roses.
Other growers, like Kordes and Harkness, were happy to call their roses by their own names. They've put their names before their country, because that's what they think is more important, maybe. Isn't that a little self-ish on their side if David was self-ingratiating? Plus, they weren't doing the same thing as DA did -- they were happy breeding something else, not introducing something completely new.
But sincerely, I don't give a damn how they want to call their roses -- I call them as they suggest me. Kordes wants 'Kordes roses'? It's ok with me. If he wanted 'German roses', I'd be happy with that too.
But let us be polite and say: o tempora, o mores. This discussion goes nowhere, because word 'English' is too strong a word for a today's rose marketing.
Let me paraphrase Steve Jobs, the CEO of Apple, when he was asked why Apple puts on all their products 'Designed by Apple in California'. Was he separatist, not loyal to his own country (USA)? He said something like this: "It happened that we just like where we are -- we just like California." Will Sun Corp. be unhappy, because they're in California too and make computers too?
Lozza, many people are just bored today and see problems in everything. Please let's not join them.
- Tom
PS. Why don't we investigate about Dutchess of Portland and about her whereabouts?

Tom, you're not now suggesting the Portland Rose came from Holland are you? Investigate away Tom, I'm pretty sure of my ground. You can see her at my place if you're ever passing.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:2113801}}

I'm amused by this discussion because many of you probably grow Dutch Irises in your gardens. They mostly originated in spain and other areas of europe. English irises similarly. The so called "German irises" which are really generally called tall bearded, do NOT originate in Germany. Japanese irises do come from Japan, but so does Iris tectorum. There is no restriction on a Australian breeder introducing japanese irises, or dutch for that matter.
What's in a name, and really what does it matter?

Lozza, this is great.
I also have something to share, but which is not widely known. But, actually, there's sound evidence that support that. For example, do you know that actual ancient city of Troy is situated in Europe, in Croatia (city of Gabela) and that first Damask rose came in Europe not by crusaders from France (yes, but later), but maybe by first Turkish invasions on Europe. ....
There are monasteries in southeastern Europe depicting Turks on their horses fighting with Christians and both armies carry their own signatures, flags, arms and .. two distinctive roses. ...
Local people call the other rose a Turkish rose, but it is Rosa Damascena, actually. It's still grown there and appreciated for its beauty. Wars bring hatred and death, but also celebrate hope, love and beauty in its purest form. ....
I'm glad that we're both fond of some scarce knowledge.
- Tom