arthurm, I meant how long would it take to develop an epiphytic orchid that can grow on its own here in Southern California. In other words...an epiphytic orchid that can thrive without any supplemental watering. There aren't any epiphytic orchids in Mediterranean climates (winter rain). So orchids that we grow outside year around are tested by our cool/cold winter rains. The more fit an epiphytic orchid is, the better adapted it will be. It will be able to take advantage of the winter rain and grow when other orchids will be resting. Over time the orchids will become fitter and fitter...they'll produce more offspring than the less fit orchids. It's a numbers game. The more orchid seeds we throw at Southern California...the sooner we'll find an orchid that has the combination of inputs/traits it needs to be perfectly adapted to our winter rain climate.

TreeDazzled, I tried sugar pine seeds from Schumacker last spring. I only purchased a trial packet so I only had a handfull of seeds to work with. I placed them in moist milled sphagnum moss in my fridge crisper drawer for the designated amount of time recommended by their website. Also, I cleaned the seeds off from the ridiculous amount of mould once a week or so. No removal of seedcoat, scarification, or any special treatment. I believe out of about a dozen or so seeds only about two didn't grow. By this past fall I had about 10, 8" sugar pine babies! Sadly, the rabbits ate them all during the winter months. I was quite upset to say the least. Good luck with Schumacker, I've ordered from them a few times before with excellent results in all instances.

Thanks everyone for your advise. Jim, Thanks for your input.Your the person that sparked my interest in Trachycarpus palms.For a cold hardy palm that has a trunk you just cant beat them for growth speed and cold hardiness :) I know there are more cold hardy palms that does not have a trunk.Like S.minor,S.louisiana,S.brazoria.Which according to what I've read lately they now include all of them as different forms of S.minors.Even S.Louisiana which can have a 6ft trunk. I've got all of them and more,I like all of them.Please dont anybody take this the wrong way.When I think of a palm tree the first thing that comes to mind is a single trunk tree with the fronds around the top of the trunk. I still like Butia and Sabal palms.But they just take so long to grow into a good size tree.Sabals being the slower one of the too.That doesn't mean that I will quit growing them.I just except them for what they are. Thanks again everyone.Here's hoping for a early spring :) Randy

Andy,are you using water bed heaters or regular seed germinating heat mats? I'm thinking about getting some myself,and was wondering which was the best way to go. Last year I bought a book called Betrocks guide to landscape Palms,by Alan W. Meerow,a very informative book,about palms and info on everything you need to know about certain palms, even there germinating times,of course depending on if the seeds are fresh.I highly recommend this book,for those of you like a good book to set down by th fire at night!!! Don